Massive Persona Almost-Verse-Wide Revisions

[MattadorProne]

I find it ironic that, in a verse where weak humans rise up to challange and defeat gods, arguments of character origin are being used as evidence of power

Note: this is not a shot at you DarkGrath, I appreciate your work on the True Nyx page

 

[GrathOfLux]

Alright, I hear you all.

I'd like if there was a bit more input on the whole Yaldabaoth thing. And as it is right now, I'm a bit busy. But if enough people agree that it was unnecessary, I'm fully willing to remove that section about Yaldabaoth on the profile. It's still pretty clear, even from the scaling chain, that Nyx should be far, far more powerful, but I understand why it might be considered unnecessary or conflicting with the nature of the website.

 

[MattadorProne]

Sounds good. I saw the back-and-forth between Tyranno223 and KnightOfSunlight regarding the inclusion so I sought to put in my two cents.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Again, I'll wait until there's a bit more input to see if making the changes is necessary.

Also, don't worry about it. I don't take these things personally.

 

[Sera_EX]

Phil and Nya are NOT the sea of souls. They are representatives.

Seems like I need to explain Persona 2....oh boy.

 

[Jasonsith]

Phil and Nya are NOT the sea of souls. They are representatives.
Seems like I need to explain Persona 2....oh boy.

Finally. We miss you so much Sera.

Take your time on explaining the cosmology of the SMT omniverse and Persona sub-verse thanks.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

>Phil and Nya are NOT the sea of souls. They are representatives.

This is true. Heck, Phil credits the Core of Xibalba as the Sea of Souls! And I was wrong about Nyar being the source of all souls; apparently he twisted its meaning intentional cuz he's a jerk like that. The true source of all souls is the Core of Xibalba, which Philemon was supposed to use to reset the world, but then he said your souls are enough.

 

[Ranzuki]

Phil and Nya are NOT the sea of souls. They are representatives.

Seems like I need to explain Persona 2....oh boy.

So what exactly are the Cthuhlu outer gods residing in Kandath Mandala that Tatsuya beat up? And how do they compare to the other "Administrators"? Because they also reside in the highest dimension in the Collective Unconscious where Philemon and Nyarlathotep resides.

Also it seems like certain posters in this thread are trying to scale Erebus to the likes of Philemon, Nyarlathotep, Yaldabaoth, and Enlil to put Nyx above the others despite the lack of feats.


And Erebus losing to Elizabeth makes me extremely doubtful that he would scale to the other stronger entities especially not Philemon or Nyarlatothep who are leagues above Igor and the rest of Velvet Room attendants.


But someone tried to abuse powerscaling and quoted you and he said Erebus would scale to the other Administratiors despite the lack of feats and being beaten by Elizabeth. And you didn't even mention that Erebus is an Administrator but they already tried to jump to conclusions.


Also are there any evidence that they are all equal in power? I mean, Philemon and Nyarlathotep are supposed to represent the entire positive and negative emotions of humanity while Yaldabaoth only represent the desire for control which also belongs in the negative emotions that Nyarlatothep represents.


I apologize for asking too many questions but a lot of things needs to be clarified especially since I'm seeing certain members are making a lot of assumptions and jumping to conclusions and putting Nyx far above Yaldabaoth despite the lack of evidence or direct canon statements.

 

[Sera_EX]

I'll get to all this in due time. I promise. I know I've kept pushing it back, and tbe blog still isn't out yet, but it's coming. I just have more things that aquire my immediate in attention in real life, which is the only reason why it's been pushed back so much.

Persona is a very complex verse. Especially considering it's immediate parallels to its sister series, Megami Tensei and Devil Survivor, which it shares the most in common with.

For example, as all demons in SMT are informational abstracts, all Persona shadows, personas, the administrators, Phil, Nyar, etc. are mental constructs. Every attack in Persona is an attack on the mind, or as we in Japanese call it, the "heart" (kokoro). There's a lot of information, hence why the blog is so big.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

I'm excited. I can practically smell the hax upgrades for the whole Persona verse.

Also thank you Sera, for including P1 and P2 in your blog. So few people know them, and I'm glad you're giving them the attention they deserve!

Last question tho; have you read the P1 manga? There might be some feats there you could add to the blog... If it helps.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Ireally do have to say that I disagree with our current scaling chain tbh.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

In what way? Currently, the concensus is that True Nyx is the most powerful, second are Yaldy, Philemon, Nyar and the other "Administrators".

 

[Ranzuki]

In what way? Currently, the concensus is that True Nyx is the most powerful, second are Yaldy, Philemon, Nyar and the other "Administrators".

You can read what MattadorProne said. A lot of us disagreed with Solacis and DarkGrath's conclusions. The whole Nyx being the strongest is filled with assumptions and logical fallacies. Especially since they used Erebus as a proof to scale her to other powerful beings when Erebus got his ass kicked by Elizabeth who is leagues below the likes of Igor who is still far below Philemon. And we don't know yet if these so called "Administrators" are even equal in power since at very least in terms of representation, Nyarlathotep represents all evil and negative emotions while Yaldabaoth's representation is humanity's desire for control which should be part of humanity's negative emotions. Then there are also godly beings who reside in Kandath Mandala, the highest dimension of Collective Unconscious who got defeated by Tatsuya.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

So... Tatsuya should be the top dog protag, is what you're saying, followed by Joker?

Also lemme guess, Tatsuya fought those Kandath Mandala beings in the P2EP PSP extra scenario right? Wish there was translations of that.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Elizabeth who is leagues below the likes of Igor who is still far below Philemon.

I don't deny Elizabeth weaker than Philemon, but Igor doesn't have much feats, so is he really above her? I mean I guess he created them, but that doesn't automatically mean he's stronger than them.

 

[GrathOfLux]

I don't deny Elizabeth weaker than Philemon, but Igor doesn't have much feats, so is he really above her? I mean I guess he created them, but that doesn't automatically mean he's stronger than them.

Yeah, I'd say you're right on that point. While fiction usually depicts "creators above creation", this is definitely not always shown to be the case. I can even think of some specific examples from other franchises where it's established that a creator can create beings more powerful than themselves. That doesn't seem like a reliable feat to scale Igor from.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Honestly, we should wait for Sera's blog before saying any game's characters is above the other. Until then, we should treat them all as somewhat even.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

While fiction usually depicts "creators above creation", this is definitely not always shown to be the case. I can even think of some specific examples from other franchises where it's established that a creator can create beings more powerful than themselves.

Exactly. I mean, isn't this one of the reasons why you, Ranzuki, think Yaldy is still above Nyx, even though she technically created him indirectly?

This scaling chain is a mess. I say we wait for Sera's blog. For the mean time, you can apply other revisions, DarkGrath. And maybe remove the whole "Nyx is the strongest" thing for now? Since we're still unsure of the scaling.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Very well, I'm fine with removing it from the True Nyx description in that case. I simply put it in as a way of quickly conveying Nyx's power in the franchise, but if there is this much disagreement with it I'm completely fine with removing it.

 

[GrathOfLux]

Done. Another thing I would still like to ask is if there are any good feats for Early Game Makoto Yuki?

 

[Ranzuki]

I don't deny Elizabeth weaker than Philemon, but Igor doesn't have much feats, so is he really above her? I mean I guess he created them, but that doesn't automatically mean he's stronger than them.

Igor is still her master and there is no proof that Elizabeth is stronger than Igor either unless proven otherwise. I'm going to do some more research since I seem to remember that it was at least implied that Igor is above the Velvet Room attendants.
I knew someone is going to eventually bring up this circular logic but the whole Nyx being above Yalda or Nyarl is even a bigger flawed argument because it was humanity that created the Collective Unconscious. There is absolutely no reason to scale it to Nyx. Meanwhile Igor having lack of feats does not contradict anything it's a feat of direct creation and said creations were given a specific set of power to serve him unlike in Nyx's case but if you want to believe it that way then I would request the removal of Nyx being above Yaldabaoth in her page.

 

[Ranzuki]

Very well, I'm fine with removing it from the True Nyx description in that case. I simply put it in as a way of quickly conveying Nyx's power in the franchise, but if there is this much disagreement with it I'm completely fine with removing it.

So now that you have removed that statement, is there enough evidence of Nyx being 2-C?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Once again, let's wait for Sera's blog for now...

 

[GrathOfLux]

Very well, I'm fine with removing it from the True Nyx description in that case. I simply put it in as a way of quickly conveying Nyx's power in the franchise, but if there is this much disagreement with it I'm completely fine with removing it.

So now that you have removed that statement, is there enough evidence of Nyx being 2-C?

Uhh... what? He scales to having nearly one-shotted Makoto with the Universe Arcana. Take a guess.

 

[Ranzuki]

So now that you have removed that statement, is there enough evidence of Nyx being 2-C?
Uhh... what? He scales to having nearly one-shotted Makoto with the Universe Arcana. Take a guess.

This has been argued countless of times in Persona threads in several different forums. Having the "Universe" Arcana does not mean he is universal level. That's like saying Ren is only planet level for only having the "World" Arcana and Tatsuya as star level for having the "Sun" Arcana.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Dude. Makoto now scales to Joker, hence why he's Low 2-C, and also Nyx for nearly oneshotting him.

Scroll up.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Isn't the Joker he scales to 4-A Joker and not Low 2-C Joker?

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Nah It's via Margaret being above Justine and Caroline, who are equal to Endgame Joker iirc.

Margaret lost to Yu, Margaret is comparable to Elizabeth, Elizabeth lost to Makoto.

So everyone gets Low 2-C.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

...Did you even read the thread?

Makoto was able to canonically defeat Elizabeth, who is stronger than both Caroline and Justine, to the point where they actively fear her. Makoto was one-shot by Nyx, repeatedly, but his Bonds let him hold on for long enough to use the great seal.

This means that a Low 2-C Makoto was one-shot multiple times over and over. And not only that, but he could not even damage Nyx while she repeatedly one-shot him.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

But the Joker in Q2 is the Joker pre-Sae palace. So Low 2-C doesn't come from Q at least.

 

[GrathOfLux]

So now that you have removed that statement, is there enough evidence of Nyx being 2-C?

Uhh... what? He scales to having nearly one-shotted Makoto with the Universe Arcana. Take a guess. This has been argued countless of times in Persona threads in several different forums. Having the "Universe" Arcana does not mean he is universal level. That's like saying Ren is only planet level for only having the "World" Arcana and Tatsuya as star level for having the "Sun" Arcana.
That is literally one of the biggest strawmans I have ever heard. I never once said that. He's Low 2-C via the scaling chain.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

We don't use Q2, and my previous message was responding to Ranzuki.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Justine and Caroline mentioned Margaret being stronger than them in P Dancing, which is canon, and the twins fought Endgame Joker, who's Low 2-C.

It's not really a PQ2 thing.

 

[Ranzuki]

Honestly, we should wait for Sera's blog before saying any game's characters is above the other. Until then, we should treat them all as somewhat even.

I'd say we should rank them based on feats for now in which case the top dogs would be Persona 2 and Persona 5 characters. Until Sera's blog is finished.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Justine and Caroline mentioned Margaret being stronger than them in P Dancing, which is canon, and the twins fought Endgame Joker, who's Low 2-C.
It's not really a PQ2 thing.

I think we were talking about two different things. When you said the Makoto scales to endgame Joker, I thought you were talking about the events of Q2. RIP me.

Actually, that gives us a key for these guys as they should scale to the PT's 4-A keys for those portions in their games. So they should all have a 4-A Key for the events of and post Q2.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

...Okay, let's do that then.

Makoto defeated Elizabeth, who is comparable to Margaret, both of which are superior to Caroline and Justine. Caroline and Justine can fight on somewhat even ground with a late game Joker.

Ranzuki, did you read the thread?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Also, do not quote large blocks of text.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Even more is that after their fight with you, Caroline and Justine will state that they're afraid of what their sisters will do when they find out that they lost to you.

So more evidence, although it's minor.

 

[Solacis]

@Ranzuki It's ironic how you call out assumptions in regards to Nyx when you immediately follow-up with saying that the featless Igor is stronger than Elizabeth.

While I do admit that I misunderstood the statement about the Administrators that I quoted earlier on, leading to my gravely incorrect statement regarding Erebus, there's still no denying the fact that you're using Philemon and Nyarlathotep's representations as if they were feats that somehow prove superiority. That's not how this works. Their greatest feat so far, as far as I know, has been the universal reset, and Yaldabaoth was on the verge of doing just that before the PTs stopped him - without the use of Xibalba or the powers of Persona-users' memories.

Nyx is also not the top-dog because of causing the creation of the Collective Unconscious. Not trying to sound angry, but how many times do I have to say that Nyx had no control over the creation of the Collective Unconscious? Not even taking into consideration that Nyx was dormant while it was being made, and that we have no timeframe whatsoever.

As for Elizabeth stomping Erebus in P4A, we already know that that Erebus was notably weaker than the one fought in The Answer, and that Elizabeth had gotten notably stronger between P3 and P4A with how easily she trounced the rest of the playable cast.

 

[ShinyMagicalGirl]

Their greatest feat so far, as far as I know, has been the universal reset, and Yaldabaoth was on the verge of doing just that before the PTs stopped him - without the use of Xibalba or the powers of Persona-users' memories.

Minor correction: It wasn't Nyar or Philemon that reset the universe. It was Tatsuya and the gang. Even while weakened and not having the Xibalba Core, they managed to pull it off. And Philemon can also do that even without the core but he chose not to interfere and let the protags do it.