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Massive MCU revision

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But then him trading blows with those capable of harming him just gets thrown out of the window. *cough* Black Panther *cough* WS *cough* Red Skull *cough* even though we're not supposed to use the last two ones despite them being evidence *cough*
 
Exactly. Captain America is only a stone wall if you ignore all the times where he wasn't one. This isn't fixing a problem it's making the problem worse.
 
BP has potentially dura neg (like vibranium's comic counterpart), WS's only major harm is with the Bionic Arm and weaponry and likely doesn't have dura to match, and Red Skull is... weird. Could still be explained by PIS or CIS or whatever

Look, this is a better solution than tier 8 Cap or 9-B dura Cap, and helps get us results without throwing literally everything out.

Also makes in-verse sense as well. Cap is implied to be comparable to Iron Man in some regard, but definitely doesn't have enough AP as shown by the Loki fight.
 
Dismissing every instance of him being harmed by weaker stuff to be 8-C is no better than dismissing his lower stuff to be 8-A. Its better to keep them at 9-A then do a contradicting 9B/8C dual stat thing.
 
Also also, I think it's time when you guys should stop counting indivdual punches and start to generalize the fights. That's the only way to get any scaling here, as Spino said "Everyone can harm everyone in the MCU".

Cap is definitely a stone wall, since he always takes much more damage than he dishes out in almost every fight he's in. Just because there are minor instances he isn't, doesn't make his entire stats go wry.

This also makes sense as there aren't many instances of Cap damaging Bucky (atleast not on the body itself), so without his arm Bucky is likely 9-B, and can still be fought by the likes of Widow, Falcon and other 9-Bs.

Logic is the most important part here, and Stone Wall Cap makes more logical sense than straight up 8-C Cap.
 
Most of your proposal makes sense, but there is just one minor thing: Bucky usually punches other with his bionic arm though.
 
Buck currently has had fights with Cap(8-C dura maybe), Iron Man(handglove tanked, definitely Tier 8), and Widow, who doesn't get hit by WS's arm (strangled once but WS was somewhat getting out of his brainwash, so whatevs), and is just thrown off. 9-B Bucky can account for being harmed and harming her.

This can also probably explain Crossbones, since his gauntlets are far higher, but he himself is 9-B
 
I might have to go with Qawsedf on the whole Stone Wall thing, but we won't get anything solid until Endgame, apparently.
 
Literally not understanding why Endgame would "fix everything" when it is guaranteed to throw in more insanity (High 6-B Cap woohoo).

Still not understanding why "getting hurt by lower" is still a big thing. Thanos can get hurt by Star-Lord, Spider-Man can hurt Ebony Dwarf etc., etc., Inconsistencies happen. Point is Cap can:

  • Tank a Tier 8 attack
  • Not die horribly to higher tiers like Thor and Iron Man
  • Comparable in... something with Iron Man.
  • Literally doing jackshit in damaging without shield except for tier 9
  • Fix Crossbones' and Bucky's nonsensical scaling.
 
Antvasima said:
I think that Qawsedf234 makes the best sense here.
Click to expand...
Qawsed's entire arguement can be summed up as "Something doesn't make sense 100%? **** it, let the tiers be as it is.", which is wrong as all hell.

Cap has dura feats at that level, and except for Red Skull (Phase 1 movie, probably irrelevant), most of the damages by "lower tiers" (Crossbones and Bucky) have a high potential of being a glass cannon. He's definitely not been severely damaged by anything below 8

I think that "Cap is a stone wall" is a sensible enough proposition, since Cap's most impressive feats are durability based anyways, and his AP is irrelevant most of the time unless it involves his shield
 
Qawsed's entire arguement can be summed up as "Something doesn't make sense 100%? **** it, let the tiers be as it is.", which is wrong as all hell.

I think both are flimsy, but the current system is less flimsy than the one you're proposing.

Cap has dura feats at that level, and except for Red Skull (Phase 1 movie, probably irrelevant), most of the damages by "lower tiers" (Crossbones and Bucky) have a high potential of being a glass cannon.

How is dismissing Red Skull as a PIS thing any better than what we have now. Bucky also isn't a glass cannon considering he can take as much damage as Captain America can and in-general has very similar showings. This still wouldn't solve the issue unless you upgrade Cap's durability to 8-A. But that's creates even more problems like 8-A Spider-Ma, 8-A Star Lord, 8-A Rocket Raccoon, and 8-A Vulture. The system being proposed would only create even more up-scaling issues

I think that "Cap is a stone wall" is a sensible enough proposition

I disagree with that proposition. If not now then down the line when chain scaling will become a larger and larger issue.
 
Well, let's wait to see what Qawsedf thinks. Also, somebody should ask Matthew Schroeder to comment here.
 
I slightly agree with Zark more, but I'll analyse the fight scenes later.

Matthew did comment at first, but he seems to have lost interest
 
WS punching once or twice and making Cap stumble doesn't really mean much in MCU, and all the major damage to him was done by Winter Soldier's arm, same with Crossbones. Cap can definitely make his punches lighter for them, as Cap isn't going to kill either of them.

8-A Spider-Man can't happen as Civil War fights aren't at full force. Cap and WS definitely weren't going to kill Spider-Man, and Cap can still be somewhat be hurt minorly by Tier 9.

Red Skull can be PIS as we're not calcing Cap surviving the plane crash either. Phase 1 MCU feats have be retconned in later films, like Loki being comparable to Thor in his movie, but getting stomped in every other movie.
 
WS punching once or twice and making Cap stumble doesn't really mean much in MCU

He punched him half a dozen times in rapid succession which put Captain America into a mini-coma. That's more than making him stumble

8-A Spider-Man can't happen as Civil War fights aren't at full force.

Than why is it proposed to make the bionic arm stronger than WS's normal tier based on it damaging Iron Man's armor?

Red Skull can be PIS as we're not calcing Cap surviving the plane crash either. Phase 1 MCU feats have be retconned in later films, like Loki being comparable to Thor in his movie, but getting stomped in every other movie.

Loki did no better against Thor in the first movie than he did in Avengers. Thor didn't even want to fight and batted him away multiple times.

But ignoring all of that Loki already has a higher rating with Gungnir than he does without out. Presumably because before people also realized the issue with scaling base Loki to Thor.
 
"He punched him half a dozen times in rapid succession which put Captain America into a mini-coma. That's more than making him stumble".

Yes. That means Bucky's arm scales to Cap's durability.

"Than why is it proposed to make the bionic arm stronger than WS's normal tier based on it damaging Iron Man's armor?"

The airport fight wasn't at full force. Iron Man was trying to kill Bucky at full force though.

"Loki did no better against Thor in the first movie than he did in Avengers. Thor didn't even want to fight and batted him away multiple times.

But ignoring all of that Loki already has a higher rating with Gungnir than he does without out. Presumably because before people also realized the issue with scaling base Loki to Thor."

Loki doesn't scale to Thor, yes.
 
Loki was comparable to Thor in the first movie, they had a decently long fight on the rainbow bridge. That had been retconned by the time Avengers rolled around, where he consistenly got his ass beat by Thor, Iron Man and Hulk
 
If we remove the 9-A ratings and give Cap the stone wall thing. I would like it if there was a note added to help diswade possible future upscaling.

Also I would like it if we removed scaling from Deathlok's feat to something Captain America has actually done. Iron Man has a Class 50 feat in one of the comics, War Machine has one, and someone should calc the beam lift. If we keep the rating I don't think we should keep the cross franchise scaling.
 
We're not only scaling from Deathlok feat, but 8-C Quicksilver recalcs, and general logic. This atleast explains away some major scaling errors with other characters
 
Zark2099 said:
We're not only scaling from Deathlok feat,
Click to expand...
I was refering to this not that. But I still have issues with crossscaling to Deathlok since he's using a forumla that has the Extremis Virus along with other stuff in it

but 8-C Quicksilver recalcs

This hasn't been accepted as of me writing this. So any change that may happen would need to wait

Cap also survived being in the epic centre of Thor's hammer hitting his shield.

Yes, because the shield dispersed all of the energy away from Captain America
 
Similar to the comic version of Captain America, the shield only absorbs around 40% of the blast as the explosion was around him.

The beam would also be Class 50 if we assume 8*1*0.5 (it's hard to find the exact value due to perspective). Spider-Man also lifted a jet bridge which is 27 000 kg. I see no problem scaling to Deathlok's feat, especially when it's canon and consistent.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
Similar to the comic version of Captain America, the shield only absorbs around 40% of the blast as the explosion was around him.
Click to expand...
And also similar to the comic version the shield does not follow that logic. It disperses the energy away from Captain America as it did here as well. Unless you're now trying to scale MCU/616 Cap's durability to their respective Thor.

The beam would also be Class 50 if we assume 8*1*0.5 (it's hard to find the exact value due to perspective). Spider-Man also lifted a jet bridge which is 27 000 kg. I see no problem scaling to Deathlok's feat, especially when it's canon and consistent.

Then it shouldn't be hard to make the calc and have it be accepted. Same with Spider-Man (who only lifted a section of the bridge and not the entire thing), rather than scaling to a character from a different medium who's using a formula that has better stuff in it.
 
Woah woah woah, we're definitely not scaling Spider-Man at 8-C. Civil War Spider-Man scaling is invalid af.

Also, what tier are we taking Bucky's arm at? Becuase that thing is definitely not 9-A, but below 8-A
 
Cap's 8-A feat we use in the comics involves his shield though, and it was accepted.

I did make a calc for the steel beam, but it was not accepted due to perspective issues. It should be around Class 50 still. Deathlok was literally said to be significantly weaker than Cap though.

I'm not sure if we should put Iron Man at 8-A in terms of durability. Sure, he would die performing the 8-A feat, but fiction doesn't follow that logic.
 
Zark2099 said:
Point is Cap can:
  • Tank a Tier 8 attack
Click to expand...
What tier 8 attack is that? Honest question.

  • Not die horribly to higher tiers like Thor and Iron Man
Thor only ever hit his shield and cooled off immediately after.

  • Comparable in... something with Iron Man.
Featwise... Cap can kick someone several meters away. Iron Man can punch someone several meters away, caving a second storey wall. If that means anything.
 
Cap's 8-A feat we use in the comics involves his shield though, and it was accepted.

Then it shouldn't be accepted unless we want to scale Cap to IG Thanos. That or the calc was based on the explosion going around the shield, which wouldn't apply to MCU Cap as the explosion was directed back and away from the shield

I did make a calc for the steel beam, but it was not accepted due to perspective issues

Then you shouldn't be using it as evidence

Deathlok was literally said to be significantly weaker than Cap though.

His formula is also noted as containing the Extremis Virus, which is 8-A and if his feats are massively better than Captain America shouldn't scale
 
Proof that Deathlok is 8-A?

It was not accepted but is certainly in that range.

It caused a shockwave around Cap and Thor tho.
 
Proof that Deathlok is 8-A?

I didn't say he was 8-A, I said that the virus he was injected with included the Extremis Virus. It also includes Steve's serum along with some Hulk stuff.

It was not accepted but is certainly in that range.

If it wasn't accepted then it shouldn't be used to keep the rating

It caused a shockwave around Cap and Thor tho.

As shown by other examples of Thor striking the shield the energy is spread around it and it doesn't effect Cap. Unless, again, you're saying that Cap is now 7-A in durability for withstanding 60% of Thor's energy.
 
Wat? Gwybleiddd calculated the shockwave to be 8-C. And Cap is clearly affected, he got blown off his feet iirc (in AoU Thor was clearly hitting less harder as he wasn't trying to fight Cap).

It was not accepted as we cannot get an exact value due to perspective issues. We can get an approximate value though.

IIRC no one managed to replicate the Super Soldier Serum, not even Howard Stark (it was a different version). It should be rather different that Cap's.
 
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