Massive Downgrades for Demon Slayer

[KingTempest]

Not to my knowledge

He had an attack where Tanjiro said he smelled something. It was in one of the scans in the OP, but the discord link died

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

He had an attack where Tanjiro said he smelled something. It was in one of the scans in the OP, but the discord link died

Oh well

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Does lightning smell?

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

This is nowhere near Zenitsu's case.

Lol, so now we are switching the goalpost to wanting the exact same shape and color.
Regardless, Zenitsu received Lichtenberg figure scars.

Read the Naruto page, that’s exactly why not all Lightning Style moves are Lightning speed. Ones like the Black Lightning, or the animal shaped lightning isn’t considered MHS

Can you quote from the Naruto page that the color of lightning determines its speed?
Snake Lightning is literally used for a MHS+ speed calc.

You’re clearly not reading. The lightning in Demon Slayer has NO FEATS of conducting at all. The only thing that we’ve seen is it not being able to conduct through someone RESISTANT TO LIGHTNING

This is not a feat for the electricity’s legitimacy

It flowed through through air, Tanjiro, Nezuko, etc. We also know that some materials don't conduct it.

Except this guys lightning doesn’t display any that are wiki standard. Your best evidence are the weird scar things which aren’t even anatomically correct to real life, everything else just points to his attacks being normal electricity, not lightning speed.

Also, where is his electrical attacks stated to be 1.6 billion joules? How is he getting to that number? Cause he hurt an 8-C character with them which is irrelevant since electricity ignores conventional durability anyway? Your entire argument is standing solely on the electricity being a certain joule level, so why is it that strong.

Also if that’s the case then every verse with an electricity user who can hurt people above 8-C should be lightning speed. And by your logic the only thing they need is to be conductive (which this lightning isn’t even, it just doesn’t go through flesh that is resistant to it) and it’s ok to scale them. Is this your belief?

It seems your problem is with the wiki standards

Potency of Blood Demon Art power system scales above 8-C.

Also stop bringing up chakra, there are literally examples of lighting jutsu that are not lightning speed, you’re simply not arguing the way you think you are

So what is your criteria regarding the Jutsu that are lightning speed and those that aren't?
Sure if it is something like lightning clone we obviously don't assume lightning speed. But do you for example decide the speed of ranged lightning attacks based on their appearance? What are the criteria for you?

Yeah for the record, you cannot assume the electricity has 1.6 billion joules solely because it harmed a 8-C character. Electricity typically bypasses durability in fiction, and even does so in some form in real life. You need a statement of it being such

We are scaling to the energy Blood Demon Art produces, which is above 1.6 billion Joules. Unless you are arguing Kaikagu scales below 8-C?

He had an attack where Tanjiro said he smelled something. It was in one of the scans in the OP, but the discord link died

Maybe this one? Here he said he heard lightning, but doesn't smell thunderclouds.

 

[KingTempest]

Last one. Ozone has a different smell than thunderclouds, but yeah that's the one

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

We are scaling to the energy Blood Demon Art produces, which is above 1.6 billion Joules. Unless you are arguing Kaikagu scales below 8-C?

Stonewall

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Can you quote from the Naruto page that the color of lightning determines its speed?
Snake Lightning is literally used for a MHS+ speed calc.

“Obviously not. Only some raiton jutsus does have it, like a lightning shot, from Kakuzu or Mitsuki. Animal shaped lightning, like Kakashi Hatake's lightning and Darui's Black Panther are not lightning speed.”

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

It flowed through through air

I don’t think this is that crazy, but weak electricity also flows through air

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

You’re stonewalling and bringing in Naruto in a discussion about lightning speed is NOT what we do on this wiki. Naruto has its own standards, and it has an entirely different power system than Demon Slayer

 

[Duedate8898]

Last one. Ozone has a different smell than thunderclouds, but yeah that's the one

Probably not Ozone, since the area that Zenitsu was in just stinks in general

 

[KingTempest]

Probably not Ozone, since the area that Zenitsu was in just stinks in general

nvm

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

It seems we’re in agreement for the most part, I’ll wait till tommorow morning until this thread is finalized

 

[TimmyTurnero]

I’ve read through most of it and I agree with it not being applicable.
For the most part, Tanjiro using thunder breathing himself practically goes against the idea that they’re literally a thunderbolt from the blue.
Zenitsu explains that all thunder breathing’s first form is putting all power into your legs and releasing it for an explosive burst of speed. Tanjiro was capable of using this breathing without the breathing and replicates it without the visual effects.
The “thunder” you hear is just a sonic boom as Taniro demonstrates and says himself.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

All lightning breathing is moving as fast as possible, which allows you to create a sonic boom hence the thunder sound. He doesn’t turn into a literal bolt from the blue.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

As for Kaigaku, his lightning BDA creating this scar doesn’t equate to it being natural lightning or sharing it’s properties.

The scar can be caused from any form of high voltage and isn’t just caused by lightning due to intense heat and the electricity bursting your blood vessels.
Kaigaku describes his attack as cracking the skin open vs just blood vessels bursting leaving the scar. They look similar but they’re clearly not the same thing. It’s just an application of his BDA and i don’t believe its existence would automatically applicate it to real cloud to ground lightning

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

As for Kaigaku, his lightning BDA creating this scar doesn’t equate to it being natural lightning or sharing it’s properties.

The scar can be caused from any form of high voltage and isn’t just caused by lightning due to intense heat and the electricity bursting your blood vessels.
Kaigaku describes his attack as cracking the skin open vs just blood vessels bursting leaving the scar. They look similar but they’re clearly not the same thing. It’s just an application of his BDA and i don’t believe its existence would automatically applicate it to real cloud to ground lightning

Great way to put it

 

[Armorchompy]

Can you tag @Nehz_XZX? he might be the most knowledgeable on the verse

@Nehz_XZX, thine presence is requested

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Bump

 

[Harith0cell]

Agree with op

 

[Nehz_XZX]

@Nehz_XZX, thine presence is requested

I'm already aware of this thread and watching it.

I'm already aware of that.

I was planning on bringing up points that hadn't been mentioned yet like Hantengu's lightning, the Lichtenberg figure scars and the fact that the Attack Potency would be above the requirement of minimum joules for real lightning and see what would be said about that though ShadowWhoWalks seems to have already done that, so that isn't anything that I would need to do anymore. While Hantengu's lightning and Kaigaku's lightning are different cases Hantengu's does establish that real lightning can be created by Blood Demon Arts and sets a precedent for it in the series. I'm also pretty sure that there are feats involving Hantengu's lightning like it being dodged or cut by characters but that would be a topic for another time.

I agree that bringing up examples from Naruto isn't exactly the best way to approach this matter since Kimetsu no Yaiba's case should be judged by its own merits. It's indeed true that the elements that Breath Styles create are only a matter of perception and that this means that the Breath of Thunder would never qualify as lightning speed on its own though the Breath of Thunder has never actually been treated as automatically lightning speed as far as I'm aware which should be obvious if you just look at Zenitsu's Speed section. Based on how this works for Kaigaku and Kokushibo it appears as if Blood Demon Arts give the seemingly elemental effects of Breath Styles real tangible effects though we don't have an example of Kokushibo using his Breath Style without Blood Demon Arts.

Kaigaku's lightning isn't cloud-to-ground lightning, so it needs to have a few demonstrated or stated properties of real lightning and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have. The color does seem like a property that lightning shouldn't have but it is the only property that would go against real lightning that I know of unless being produced by a Blood Demon Art also counts as a disqualifying factor despite Hantengu's case. 1.6 billion Joules is explicitly mentioned by the Lightning Feats page and is indeed fulfilled by Kaigaku's case by virtue of his Attack Potency. It's also worth mentioning in this case that we don't assume lightning in fiction to have durability negating properties unless there is a stated amplitude or powers like that have been demonstrated.

The scar can be caused from any form of high voltage and isn’t just caused by lightning due to intense heat and the electricity bursting your blood vessels.
Kaigaku describes his attack as cracking the skin open vs just blood vessels bursting leaving the scar. They look similar but they’re clearly not the same thing. It’s just an application of his BDA and i don’t believe its existence would automatically applicate it to real cloud to ground lightning

That's an interesting fact though Kaigaku's case seems like something that would be based on the real lightning phenomenon. There is also the fact that Zenitsu is in fact losing blood through the wounds Kaigaku's lightning causes in chapter 145, so it is presumably bursting blood vessels. The colored version of the chapter also depicts the Lichtenberg figure scars as red.

I can see that the OP has gone through the relevant pages and has taken a look at the reasons that were given for the calculations and I'd say that they have done a good job with that. I'm finished with saying everything that I had to say with this comment at this point.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Alright, it seems we have reached a consensus

The changes should be able to be applied now

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Stonewall

Super bad faith. You claimed that we cannot assume Kaikagu's electricity has 8-C output.
I pointed out that we are using Blood Demon Art as a power system for scaling. This is literally the same reason Doma's physicals scales with the output of his Blood Demon Art ice creation.

I’ve read through most of it and I agree with it not being applicable.
For the most part, Tanjiro using thunder breathing himself practically goes against the idea that they’re literally a thunderbolt from the blue.
Zenitsu explains that all thunder breathing’s first form is putting all power into your legs and releasing it for an explosive burst of speed. Tanjiro was capable of using this breathing without the breathing and replicates it without the visual effects.
The “thunder” you hear is just a sonic boom as Taniro demonstrates and says himself.

Though the issue analyzed is Blood Demon Arts lightning.
There is consensus before this thread that Thunder Breathing by itself isn't real electricity, and I don't think anyone on VBW is arguing that anymore; however at some point the justification switched to BDA being capable of producing real electricity.

I don’t think this is that crazy, but weak electricity also flows through air

As for Kaigaku, his lightning BDA creating this scar doesn’t equate to it being natural lightning or sharing it’s properties.

The scar can be caused from any form of high voltage and isn’t just caused by lightning due to intense heat and the electricity bursting your blood vessels.
Kaigaku describes his attack as cracking the skin open vs just blood vessels bursting leaving the scar. They look similar but they’re clearly not the same thing. It’s just an application of his BDA and i don’t believe its existence would automatically applicate it to real cloud to ground lightning

Reminder how the wiki classifies lightning:

Most electricity in fiction is not real lightning. Often it is supernatural in nature, and is possibly not even electricity. Therefore lightning is only accepted as such under certain circumstances. Cloud-to-ground lightning is considered to be real lightning, as long there is nothing suggesting otherwise. Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis. Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

To summarize it through a flowchart:

So scars being created via. voltage would be among the few properties of real electricity shown; this is not yet the step where we prove the speed of the electricity, just that the attack shares properties with real electricity.

---

Since the main counter argument is 'weak electricity also shares those properties', we are at the final part of the flowchart; whether the character produces 1.6 billion Joules.

My argument for the last part is simple; the potency of demon blood is considered a power system, hence Doma's ice feat created through his Blood Demon Arts scales to his physicals. And Demons at Kaikagu's level have enough potency to produce 8-C energy, therefore his attacks clears the final requirement and can be considered cloud-to-ground lightning speed.

 

[Armorchompy]

Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis.

... It's pitch black, magic in nature and, secondarily, does not move how electricity actually would.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

magic in nature

Supernatural would be a better description since Magic isn't one of the powers the verse has. There is also the precedent with Hantengu though this is otherwise alright as a point.

does not move how electricity actually would.

Do you have a specific example in mind for that?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Since the main counter argument is 'weak electricity also shares those properties', we are at the final part of the flowchart; whether the character produces 1.6 billion Joules

Electricity's speed is not based on power but on medium of travel. Electricity with less energy can travel much faster through stuff like copper but stronger bolts of electricity will travel slower through open atmosphere.

The reason lightning is fast is because of ionic and voltage conditions that allow it to move fast, not because its highly energetic. The scars can also he caused without being subjected to lightning rather than just bolts of electricity.

 

[Armorchompy]

Do you have a specific example in mind for that?

Eh, just kinda, generically it often flying upwards is to my understanding not how electricity works at all

ù

(As a side note, this is not the "right material" at all and if anything shows that the lightning works in a completely different way from real electricity)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Eh, just kinda, generically it often flying upwards is to my understanding not how electricity works at all

(As a side note, this is not the "right material" at all and if anything shows that the lightning works in a completely different way from real electricity)

These images are of Hantengu's lightning which would be a case separate from Kaigaku and I don't think that this was currently being discussed.

I think that this is just a case of how Hantengu's flesh interacts with his own lightning.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

To summarize it through a flowchart:

No

 

[Nehz_XZX]

No

That thread seems to have happened a fair amount of time in the past. Electro also seems to currently fulfill the Attack Potency requirements. Are there any plans to change the lightning standards or is there some more context here?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

That thread seems to have happened a fair amount of time in the past. Electro also seems to currently fulfill the Attack Potency requirements.

It doesn't matter much, since the speed was accepted even with lower AP
Being an old topic is not a problem, the standards have not changed

 

[Metalballrun]

Electricity's speed is not based on power but on medium of travel. Electricity with less energy can travel much faster through stuff like copper but stronger bolts of electricity will travel slower through open atmosphere.

The reason lightning is fast is because of ionic and voltage conditions that allow it to move fast, not because its highly energetic. The scars can also he caused without being subjected to lightning rather than just bolts of electricity.

The same thing applies to sound as well. Might not be relevant, but I just remembered a certain verse that was gonna get supersonic ratings because of questionable sound being faster than sound arguments.

Also might not be relevant for the thread, but aren't there direct anti-feats during the Swordsmith Village arc as Hantengu was simultaneously using electricity attacks and sonic attacks? The Demon Slayers he fought were struggling with both, although I believe Tanjiro has evaded these attacks somehow IIRC at some point, but it may imply that the speed difference between these attacks aren't that much.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

It doesn't matter much, since the speed was accepted even with lower AP
Being an old topic is not a problem, the standards have not changed

Okay, but it does seem to contradict what the Lightning Feats page says:

"It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify."

If this hasn't changed despite an accepted and old thread having come to a different conclusion, then that seems like an oversight to me. Provided there aren't any threads that successfully argued against that different conclusion a new thread about this topic should be appropriate.

Also might not be relevant for the thread, but aren't there direct anti-feats during the Swordsmith Village arc as Hantengu was simultaneously using electricity attacks and sonic attacks? The Demon Slayers he fought were struggling with both, although I believe Tanjiro has evaded these attacks somehow IIRC at some point, but it may imply that the speed difference between these attacks aren't that much.

Aren't there plenty of verses that make use of sound, lightning or light despite having feats that put them a good deal above these things in terms of speed? Tanjiro has already dodged sound attacks in his first key and he has gotten much faster than that even if you don't consider calculated speed feats, so that seems more like a feat for Hantengu's sound attacks.

 

[Metalballrun]

Aren't there plenty of verses that make use of sound, lightning or light despite having feats that put them a good deal above these things in terms of speed? Tanjiro has already dodged sound attacks in his first key and he has gotten much faster than that even if you don't consider calculated speed feats, so that seems more like a feat for Hantengu's sound attacks.

Maybe those verses have a problem, too.

It also doesn't change the speed of sound, however. So if the Hantengu sound attacks shouldn't be counted as a valid anti-feat, then instead of calling it a feat for Hantengu, it's more apt to call it an outlier as it is deemed inconsistent with the supposed level of speed at that point in time.

 

[TimmyTurnero]

The sound and the “lightning” has shown to move relative to each other. Something I just realized. So do we just claim the lightning is the same as natural lightning and make it lightning speed while also ignoring the fact that the sound produced by the BDA doesn’t act as natural sound?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Okay, but it does seem to contradict what the Lightning Feats page says:

"It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify."

If this hasn't changed despite an accepted and old thread having come to a different conclusion, then that seems like an oversight to me. Provided there aren't any threads that successfully argued against that different conclusion a new thread about this topic should be appropriate.


Aren't there plenty of verses that make use of sound, lightning or light despite having feats that put them a good deal above these things in terms of speed? Tanjiro has already dodged sound attacks in his first key and he has gotten much faster than that even if you don't consider calculated speed feats, so that seems more like a feat for Hantengu's sound attacks.

When did he dodge sound attacks? I don’t recall any of the verse being above sound speed until Akaza

 

[KLOL506]

What? The same applies to quite literally ANY form of electricity, even the weak airborne forms that move at Mach 1.6. Saying that the lightning “doesn’t conduct” because the material is the skin of someone resistant to lightning IS NOT a feat for the lightning

One small correction, the Mach 1.6-Mach 11 values are not considered to be of lethal enough current, and it was shot with a puny coilgun.

 

[KLOL506]

Okay, but it does seem to contradict what the Lightning Feats page says:

"It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify."

If this hasn't changed despite an accepted and old thread having come to a different conclusion, then that seems like an oversight to me. Provided there aren't any threads that successfully argued against that different conclusion a new thread about this topic should be appropriate.

Nope, this is still the go-to method. DontTalkDT said as much.

 

[KLOL506]

No

Yes

Also yes

Another yes (Granted this straight up made Electro be able to transform into actual cloud-to-cloud and cloud-to-ground lightning but still)

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Maybe those verses have a problem, too.

It also doesn't change the speed of sound, however. So if the Hantengu sound attacks shouldn't be counted as a valid anti-feat, then instead of calling it a feat for Hantengu, it's more apt to call it an outlier as it is deemed inconsistent with the supposed level of speed at that point in time.

Sounds like as if that would be a site-wide revision that you are suggesting here.

Calling it an outlier would feel out of place since it is a canonical ability that Hantengu consistently makes use of. I'd view it as just a weird oddity of his sound ability that also happens in verses with MFTL+ speeds among other things, so I'd consider this to be something very widespread like characters still being able to talk and hear each other while they are moving faster than sound.

The sound and the “lightning” has shown to move relative to each other. Something I just realized. So do we just claim the lightning is the same as natural lightning and make it lightning speed while also ignoring the fact that the sound produced by the BDA doesn’t act as natural sound?

It's pretty common in verses which technically surpass these things in terms of speed, so if you want that changed, then that seems like a matter of the Wiki's standards and not a matter of Kimetsu no Yaiba as a verse.

When did he dodge sound attacks? I don’t recall any of the verse being above sound speed until Akaza

Kyogai's claw attack has been stated to move at the same speed as the sound of his drum.

Edit: Okay, the attack isn't really a sound attack though I guess it at the very least shares a property with sound which would be speed.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Nope, this is still the go-to method. DontTalkDT said as much.

Okay.