Massive Downgrades for Demon Slayer

[TimmyTurnero]

It's pretty common in verses which technically surpass these things in terms of speed, so if you want that changed, then that seems like a matter of the Wiki's standards and not a matter of Kimetsu no Yaiba as a verse.

No, it is a demon slayer problem.
“It’s pretty common in verses which technically surpass these things in terms of speed” which has no relevance to what im arguing. You cannot claim the electricity is the speed of natural lightning when it has been shown to move relative to the speed of a sound attack. Meaning you’re cherry picking which is considered natural/share all aspects of it’s natural variation and what shouldn’t be. The sound attack is produced by the same BDA, so what’s keeping us from arguing his electricity isn’t just moving at the speed of sound (we visually see this) which would also be consistent with actual electricity in air?

Kyogai's claw attack has been stated to move at the same speed as the sound of his drum.

When?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

No, it is a demon slayer problem.
“It’s pretty common in verses which technically surpass these things in terms of speed” which has no relevance to what im arguing. You cannot claim the electricity is the speed of natural lightning when it has been shown to move relative to the speed of a sound attack. Meaning you’re cherry picking which is considered natural/share all aspects of it’s natural variation and what shouldn’t be.

The sound attack is produced by the same BDA, so what’s keeping us from arguing his electricity isn’t just moving at the speed of sound (we visually see this) which would also be consistent with actual electricity in air?

If you want to people to consider your arguments in good faith, then you probably shouldn't accuse them of cherry picking without letting them explain themselves first. That's just arguing in bad faith. Inconsistencies in my views and arguments can simply be pointed out without needing to be aggressive or confrontational which I consider to be entirely detrimental for a debate. This matter can indeed be viewed as a Demon Slayer problem since it does show up in that series but this doesn't make the point that a lot of series have sound, lightning and light attacks keep up with things or people that should be faster than that invalid and only addressing that matter for Demon Slayer could be considered a very selective way of approaching that common issue.

You can technically view the sound and the lightning as separate aspects of the same Blood Demon Art since different clones have them though that isn't too relevant. Fictional lightning can be viewed as lightning speed provided certain standards are fulfilled and Tanjiro already has feats of dodging attacks moving at the speed of sound, so any sound attack that is fast enough to actually have a chance of hitting a much faster Tanjiro would need to be faster by necessity. It would be an antifeat for the lightning if the sound was stated to be sound speed but with it being able to be used alongside lightning and being effectively utilized against someone who dodged sound speed attacks when they were much slower it isn't unreasonable to simply view that sound as faster than what ordinary sound would be. This might sound absurd when you consider the properties of sound in the real world but isn't too farfetched in fictional media where certain artistic liberties like FTL and supernatural abilities can be taken to facilitate the plot.

When?

Right after we first see Kyogai use that attack in the manga.

 

[Metalballrun]

Sounds like as if that would be a site-wide revision that you are suggesting here.

Sure, I believe that kind of CRT-deflecting tactic is effective sometimes. You gotta be more specific about what these verses are though, because I don't believe changing them is relevant to this thread.

Calling it an outlier would feel out of place since it is a canonical ability that Hantengu consistently makes use of. I'd view it as just a weird oddity of his sound ability that also happens in verses with MFTL+ speeds among other things, so I'd consider this to be something very widespread like characters still being able to talk and hear each other while they are moving faster than sound.

The logic behind it is quite simple:

• Tanjiro dodges sound attacks (supposedly this was from the drum demon iirc)
• Hantengu uses sound attacks and consistently tags Tanjiro, who should be significantly way faster than before

Storytelling tropes like conversations in the middle of high speed battles and other free action stuff, is a different matter entirely. It doesn't justify the inconsistency brought by the Hantengu case. The former is a general accepted device to move stories. With the latter, I can argue that a transonic 7-C character stomps Swordsmith Village arc Tanjiro because he gets tagged by sonic waves.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Sure, I believe that kind of CRT-deflecting tactic is effective sometimes. You gotta be more specific about what these verses are though, because I don't believe changing them is relevant to this thread.

It doesn't justify the inconsistency brought by the Hantengu case. The former is a general accepted device to move stories. With the latter, I can argue that a transonic 7-C character stomps Swordsmith Village arc Tanjiro because he gets tagged by sonic waves.

I'm merely stating my opinion since you did make a comment about those other verses and it would be rather neglectful to solely address this issue with Kimetsu no Yaiba without considering any of these other verses. I could certainly name examples though I don't think that I could make a full list due to how numerous they are. If you want to see what examples I'm talking about, then just check the Sound Users category, the Electricity Users category and the Light Users category. Any character who is faster than Transonic (for the Sound Users category), Massively Hypersonic+ (for the Electricity Users category) and Speed of Light (for the Light Users category) would be symptomatic of this common issue that I'm talking about.

That sounds like an argument that ignores powerscaling and the canon progression of a character's growth in strength and speed. It also ignores the lightning that is also utilized by Hantengu.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Yes

Also yes

Another yes (Granted this straight up made Electro be able to transform into actual cloud-to-cloud and cloud-to-ground lightning but still)

This is simply irrelevant. What I'm talking about is that the speed was accepted even though Electro was a 9-A character, I don't care if he was later upgraded or something. I'm just referring to that specific thread and specific time

 

[TimmyTurnero]

If you want to people to consider your arguments in good faith, then you probably shouldn't accuse them of cherry picking without letting them explain themselves first. That's just arguing in bad faith. Inconsistencies in my views and arguments can simply be pointed without needing to be aggressive or confrontational which I consider to be entirely detrimental for a debate. This matter can indeed be viewed as a Demon Slayer problem since it does show up in that series but this doesn't make the point that a lot of series have sound, lightning and light attacks keep up with things or people that should be faster than that invalid and only addressing that matter for Demon Slayer could be considered a very selective way of approaching that common issue.

I’m not trying to argue in good faith or bad faith, it really doesn’t matter and I stand by what I said. Your argument is a clear form of cherry picking.
You can’t even call this an inconsistency or contradiction as the lightning isn’t considered lightning speed anywhere other than the fanbase, which doesn’t make it an in series contradiction. It’s not established to be the same as cloud to ground so it contradicts nothing in series. That’s just an assumption.
I also fail to see the relevancy with mentioning other series. They’re not all written by the DS author so this problem solely falls on demon slayer.

You can technically view the sound and the lightning as separate aspects of the same Blood Demon Art since different clones have them though that isn't too relevant. Fictional lightning can be viewed as lightning speed provided certain standards are fulfilled and Tanjiro already has feats of dodging attacks moving at the speed of sound, so any sound attack that is fast enough to actually have a chance of hitting a much faster Tanjiro would need to be faster by necessity. It would be an antifeat for the lightning if the sound was stated to be sound speed but with it being able to be used alongside lightning and being effectively utilized against someone who dodged sound speed attacks when they were much slower it isn't unreasonable to simply view that sound as faster than what ordinary sound would be. This might sound absurd when you consider the properties of sound in the real world but isn't too farfetched in fictional media where certain artistic liberties like FTL and supernatural abilities can be taken to facilitate the plot.

So you’re asserting that the speed of sound is lightning speed due being faster than another sound attack via misunderstanding.
Tanjiro NEVER dodged a sound attack and when viewing it, it was clearly established that he was blitz by the attack and could only react to it via aim dodging.
Your entire argument, again, centralizes around the belief that the lightning again acts like natural lightning.
When natural things produced by the blood demon art in a magical form has been presented to act differently than it’s natural aspect (can become faster or slower, is presented to be faster and slower) why assume that it’s inherently at the level of it’s natural state especially when there’s nothing depicting such?

Right after we first see Kyogai use that attack in the manga.

He never dodges it, when he first uses the attack Tanjiro was blitz by it and he himself says it appeared instantly.
In all other occasions of him avoiding it he’s clearly aim dodging. He says so himself, by watching his hands and predicting when he’s going to attack.

 

[KLOL506]

This is simply irrelevant. What I'm talking about is that the speed was accepted even though Electro was a 9-A character, I don't care if he was later upgraded or something. I'm just referring to that specific thread and specific time

Ah. Okay then.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I’m not trying to argue in good faith or bad faith, it really doesn’t matter and I stand by what I said. Your argument is a clear form of cherry picking.
You can’t even call this an inconsistency or contradiction as the lightning isn’t considered lightning speed anywhere other than the fanbase, which doesn’t make it an in series contradiction. It’s not established to be the same as cloud to ground so it contradicts nothing in series. That’s just an assumption.
I also fail to see the relevancy with mentioning other series. They’re not all written by the DS author so this problem solely falls on demon slayer.

So you’re asserting that the speed of sound is lightning speed due being faster than another sound attack via misunderstanding.
Tanjiro NEVER dodged a sound attack and when viewing it, it was clearly established that he was blitz by the attack and could only react to it via aim dodging.
Your entire argument, again, centralizes around the belief that the lightning again acts like natural lightning.
When natural things produced by the blood demon art in a magical form has been presented to act differently than it’s natural aspect (can become faster or slower, is presented to be faster and slower) why assume that it’s inherently at the level of it’s natural state especially when there’s nothing depicting such?

He never dodges it, when he first uses the attack Tanjiro was blitz by it and he himself says it appeared instantly.
In all other occasions of him avoiding it he’s clearly aim dodging. He says so himself, by watching his hands and predicting when he’s going to attack.

You can stand by what you said but not caring about good faith or bad faith is basically like saying that you are perfectly fine with arguing in a toxic manner and that's the sort of thing that can get someone banned for good reason though I'm not going to assume that you mean this to such an extreme extent but it still sounds like what a really unpleasant person to converse with would say to me. This assumption follows certain standards that were established to quantify feats like these in a proper manner which means that this part of your argument relies on the other parts of your argument being valid. Inconsistencies with one author is one thing but inconsistencies with a whole lot of authors seems like something that should be handled in a thread about the site-wite standards. The issue is also pretty much identical with what is the case in a lot of other series, so you could save a lot of time by just straight up making a thread about this to change the Wiki standards regarding this and if you actually get it accepted, then I would help you with applying the change not just with Kimetsu no Yaiba but also any other verse that I can help with.

Simply saying that I'm misunderstanding doesn't offer a whole lot of details and sounds like needless antagonizing to me if you could just present your reasoning instead. I've already clarified earlier that Tanjiro dodged sound speed attacks and not attacks made from sound unlike the impression that my usage of "sound attacks" could evoke. Tanjiro does manage to dodge a sound attack in chapter 108. Lightning has certain properties and if enough of them are present lightning speed can be applied. More similarities with actual lightning increases the probability that it also shares the speed aspect and that it is supposed to be like real lightning. It's also rather unlikely that anyone who can manipulate lightning would want it to be slower than the real thing though that would of course be a different matter if the lightning doesn't have much in common with real lightning outside of appearances. That kind of sounds like as if you disagree with the Lightning Feats standards, so wouldn't it be better for you to change them since that otherwise seems to be an issue that will keep popping up in various verses for you?

Tanjiro and Inosuke moved to the side and dodged that attack. You can clearly see them moving in the relevant panel though the translation that I've looked up did have Tanjiro saying that it happened suddenly, so it was presumably fairly fast for him. Also, the only indication Tanjiro gets for the claw attack is the sound and the movement of Kyogai's hands and that's about it. It doesn't tell him anything about the trajectory and exact location of the attack though I guess he can guess the general location based on his position. He also later relies on the smell of the attack to dodge them in chapter 25 which gets a noticeable reaction from Kyogai.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Bump.

 

[SuperStar]

So what's the conclusion here? Or are we waiting for more input?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

So what's the conclusion here? Or are we waiting for more input?

I'm not sure, so I would wait for more input.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

As far as I know we are in agreement that Kaigaku’s electricity isn’t real lightning, so that can be removed

Hantengu’s stuff can be solved on a different thread

 

[Metalballrun]

I'm merely stating my opinion since you did make a comment about those other verses and it would be rather neglectful to solely address this issue with Kimetsu no Yaiba without considering any of these other verses.

Well, let's set things straight about what actually happened.

1. You brought up other verses as a defensive argument.
2. I mentioned that maybe those verses might have a problem as well.
3. You then suggested that I am suggesting a site-wide revision for whatever these verses are.
4. I played along, but made sure to mention that the state of other verses shouldn't matter for this current thread.

I do agree that a shared scaling problem should be addressed with all verses that uses said flawed scaling method. It happened a while back with the whole Bleach fiasco. But I mentioned the "CRT deflecting" part only as an unintended knee-jerk reaction because we all know this might tend to derail the purpose of the thread if we talk too much about unrelated media.

That sounds like an argument that ignores powerscaling and the canon progression of a character's growth in strength and speed. It also ignores the lightning that is also utilized by Hantengu.

I'm sorry, can you quote which part of my comment exactly is "ignoring powerscaling and the canon progression" of Demon Slayer? You can address that with both my comments before and after considering Hantengu's sound waves as an outlier and give a reason why you think that. Because it's not making sense to me at all.

Of course, this thread isn't about Hantengu. So I'm willing to drop this argument entirely.

 

[SuperStar]

I say we start a new thread about Hantengu since this one is resolved already

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Yes, but we also need the changes to go in for it

Meaning everyone who was 8-B+ before the Zenitsu calc goes back down to 8-B+, everyone who’s MHS+ goes down to MHS

 

[SuperStar]

You can start making the changes already since this has been accepted and someone else can start the hantengu thread

 

[Damage3245]

These downgrades are fine.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Alright, do I need to be on PC to make the changes?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Alright, do I need to be on PC to make the changes?

Most preferred, yes

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Well, let's set things straight about what actually happened.

1. You brought up other verses as a defensive argument.
2. I mentioned that maybe those verses might have a problem as well.
3. You then suggested that I am suggesting a site-wide revision for whatever these verses are.
4. I played along, but made sure to mention that the state of other verses shouldn't matter for this current thread.

I do agree that a shared scaling problem should be addressed with all verses that uses said flawed scaling method. It happened a while back with the whole Bleach fiasco. But I mentioned the "CRT deflecting" part only as an unintended knee-jerk reaction because we all know this might tend to derail the purpose of the thread if we talk too much about unrelated media.

I'm sorry, can you quote which part of my comment exactly is "ignoring powerscaling and the canon progression" of Demon Slayer? You can address that with both my comments before and after considering Hantengu's sound waves as an outlier and give a reason why you think that. Because it's not making sense to me at all.

Of course, this thread isn't about Hantengu. So I'm willing to drop this argument entirely.

I don't think that there is that much of a disagreement with what actually happened but I guess I can still give my perspective on the matter.

1. I brought up that the issue you raised is very common and I don't think that you will deny that it is widespread. Based on the numbers that are given for all items in the relevant category pages, the not insignificant probability of a character being faster than sound, lightning or light and the fact that there are other characters that scale to them there would most likely be at the very least thousands of pages affected by this line of reasoning.
2. You then decided to take the option to wonder if those other verses also need to be revised based on your opinion regarding this issue.
3. I brought up the logical consequence of that line of thought which does pretty much imply that a site-wide revision is needed.
4. You then mentioned something about a CRT deflecting tactic which was apparently a knee-jerk reaction and then went on to say that this is irrelevant for this thread which is true since this is about Kagaku's lightning. It seems like as if you mentioned that in the first comment in which you wrote about Hantengu's lightning as well.

I wouldn't be familiar with what happened with Bleach, so I can't say much about that. If you are worried that this could derail, then we could continue discussing this using the profile posts, the more private Conversations, the Message Wall on the Wiki or even Discord.

The logic behind it is quite simple:

• Tanjiro dodges sound attacks (supposedly this was from the drum demon iirc)
• Hantengu uses sound attacks and consistently tags Tanjiro, who should be significantly way faster than before

Storytelling tropes like conversations in the middle of high speed battles and other free action stuff, is a different matter entirely. It doesn't justify the inconsistency brought by the Hantengu case. The former is a general accepted device to move stories. With the latter, I can argue that a transonic 7-C character stomps Swordsmith Village arc Tanjiro because he gets tagged by sonic waves.

Well, it ignores the prior feat of Tanjiro having previously dodged a sound speed attack from Kyogai and that Tanjiro from the Swordsmith Village arc would scale to that. In terms of the canon progression of Tanjiro's growth in strength and speed there is in the timeframe between the feat against Kyogai and the fight against Hantengu the Rehabiliation Training that allowed Tanjiro to keep up against Kanao whom he stated was superior to his top condition prior to that training, the months of training after the Mugen Train arc, the boost he received in the fight against Upper Moon 6 and through the increased mastery of Sun Breathing and then there is the intense Type Zero Training. Does that make more sense and make it clear what I mean? Is there anything that I misunderstood about what you said in bolded part or did I actually understand this right?

That would be fine with me as well since the topic is indeed not about Hantengu.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Completed a few of the speed ratings, I may need some help though, there’s a lot of profiles and changing the tiers for AP isn’t working

 

[chosen]

Decided to just ask here
Why characters like Zenitsu and Giyuu are scaled go marked Muichiro speed

 

[Metalballrun]

Is there anything that I misunderstood about what you said in bolded part or did I actually understand this right?

Ah, yes. The comment you're quoting was my response to you using the "Talking is a Free Action" as a justification for Tanjiro getting tagged by sound waves, as I was saying that your reasoning doesn't justify or really works as a counterargument for Tanjiro's anti-feat, therefore I can argue that Tanjiro gets beat by a transonic character as a result.

I wasn't arguing that Tanjiro actually does get beat by a transonic character, as made obvious when I stated that it's better to treat Tanjiro's anti-feat as an outlier since the premise is that Tanjiro should've surpassed that level of speed long ago.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Ah, yes. The comment you're quoting was my response to you using the "Talking is a Free Action" as a justification for Tanjiro getting tagged by sound waves, as I was saying that your reasoning doesn't justify or really works as a counterargument for Tanjiro's anti-feat, therefore I can argue that Tanjiro gets beat by a transonic character as a result.

I wasn't arguing that Tanjiro actually does get beat by a transonic character, as made obvious when I stated that it's better to treat Tanjiro's anti-feat as an outlier since the premise is that Tanjiro should've surpassed that level of speed long ago.

I think that it should be perfectly possible for fictional sound to be faster than sound especially if it has a feat of hitting someone who is faster than sound speed and is used alongside something that should be faster than sound like lightning though that just brings us back to our prior points regarding our disagreement in this matter. If you want to continue discussing this but not in this thread, then I have already offered alternatives in my last comment which shouldn't be difficult to use.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Profiles are complete except for Tanjiro, I need perms for him

Or a mod can go in and do his profile

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Profiles are complete except for Tanjiro, I need perms for him

Or a mod can go in and do his profile

Actually I just need his profile open

He doesn’t need much, just his speed keys changed to MHS

 

[denzeelmao]

1. Breathing being derived from elements is irrelevant. Breathing Styles are nothing more than visual effects that are a representation of someone’s swordsmanship, and thus has absolutely zero relevance, considering that Thunder Breathing users cannot manipulate lightning alone.

This is flat-out wrong. Kaigaku is a blood demon art user, so his thunder IS real.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

This is flat-out wrong. Kaigaku is a blood demon art user, so his thunder IS real.

Already addressed, keep scrolling

 

[denzeelmao]

Already addressed, keep scrolling

After zenitsu is hit by said lightning, his face also burns up like how your face would generate wounds after being struck by lightning.

Plus, it's been shown before that Demons CAN generate thunder. I really don't see the point here.

Even if this DOES go through, KnY fans will have to put their trust into gyutaros explosion house method..

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Even if this DOES go through, KnY fans will have to put their trust into gyutaros explosion house method..

Heavily an outlier lol

Plus the downgrades are already in besides Tanjiro’s profile

 

[denzeelmao]

Heavily an outlier lol

Not really.

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power?
No, a 700X poisoned Doma pulls an 8-B+/8-A Feat. Low 7-C isn't too far-fetched.
2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident?
We can skip this as well. Gyutaro only has one fight we can scale him off of.
3) Is the event unexplained and unjustified?
We can also justify this. He used all his power in this move since he wanted to take the crew out before he died.
4) Does the event break the previously established power scaling?
No, As I said, a 700X poisoned Doma pulls an 8-B+/8-A Feat. Low 7-C isn't too far-fetched.
5) Does the event break with the narrative of the work?
No it doesn't.

Plus the downgrades are already in besides Tanjiro’s profile

Yes, I am aware. I'm just saying if the House method is accepted, Most characters can get bumped up to Low 7-C.

 

[chosen]

Decided to just ask here
Why characters like Zenitsu and Giyuu are scaled go marked Muichiro speed

^ cuz from what i understand this from where mhs for them comes from

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

1) Is it a big jump or drop in power?
No, a 700X poisoned Doma pulls an 8-B+/8-A Feat. Low 7-C isn't too far-fetched.

Doma is UM2, Gyutaro is UM6

2) Is it a unique or exceptional incident?
We can skip this as well. Gyutaro only has one fight we can scale him off of.

For the record, Douma’s feat is 70 tons. Gyutaro’s feat is over 4000 tons. Weakened or not, you’re assuming that a fodder UM6 could pull off a feat 61x higher than a UM2

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Nonetheless this isn’t the point of the thread lol, you can bring this up somewhere else in a CRT

 

[denzeelmao]

Doma is UM2, Gyutaro is UM6

Range should still be considered
Plus, doma has no other feats.

For the record, Douma’s feat is 70 tons. Gyutaro’s feat is over 4000 tons. Weakened or not, you’re assuming that a fodder UM6 could pull off a feat 57x higher than a UM2

If a character only has a few fights, you skip that point.

Nonetheless this isn’t the point of the thread lol, you can bring this up somewhere else in a CRT

Thank you for the concern

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Range should still be considered
Plus, doma has no other feats.

Irrelevant, Doma treats Akaza, someone who is only 1 rank below him, as a joke. There is absolutely no logic in a UM6 performing a 61x higher feat than a UM2

 

[Nehz_XZX]

For the record, Douma’s feat is 70 tons. Gyutaro’s feat is over 4000 tons. Weakened or not, you’re assuming that a fodder UM6 could pull off a feat 61x higher than a UM2

It does seem extreme but Doma was poisoned to the point where he was melting and poison managed to weaken Gyutaro to the point where someone who scales a hundred times below him could push him to the ground, so there's some room for arguing.

Nonetheless this isn’t the point of the thread lol, you can bring this up somewhere else in a CRT

Yeah, that would indeed be more appropriate for another CRT.

 

[denzeelmao]

It does seem extreme but Doma was poisoned to the point where he was melting and poison managed to weaken Gyutaro to the point where someone who scales a hundred times below him could push him to the ground, so there's some room for arguing

Agreed.

Yeah, that would indeed be more appropriate for another CRT.

Shall i make a CRT, then? Should i just put it into calculation revision?

 

[TimmyTurnero]

Why is an anime only feat being used?

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Shall i make a CRT, then? Should i just put it into calculation revision?

It would be Content Revision. I don't know what you mean with calculation revision since we don't have that but if you mean Calc Group Discussion, then I have to tell you that it is limited to Calc Group members. I'd wait with that CRT until this one is finished, so that the focus doesn't get split too much.