Massive Downgrades for Demon Slayer

[Mazdoesstuff]

Upon my review of the Demon Slayer verse, I had taken looks through the calculations and most were fine, although I had an issue with this:

Kimetsu No Yaiba: Zenitsu bliztes lightning

vsbattles.fandom.com

The math isn’t necessarily wrong, but what is wrong is the fact that the calc views the Thunder Breathing as lightning speed, which is clearly invalid. Now, I want to go through and explain why this won’t work.

Here is a list of the reasons said: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/M...dId=4400000000001396018&useskin=fandomdesktop

1. Breathing being derived from elements is irrelevant. Breathing Styles are nothing more than visual effects that are a representation of someone’s swordsmanship, and thus has absolutely zero relevance, considering that Thunder Breathing users cannot manipulate lightning alone.

2. Creating sounds of lightning is also irrelevant.
Again, this merely falls under Perception Manipulation, which Breath users can already do as a standalone. Unless there are feats that directly depict LIGHTNING, it doesn’t mean anything.

3. Rending and burning flesh doesn’t mean the electricity is lightning speed.
Rending flesh and causing burns is something that electricity can do starting from about 500 volts. Real lightning, on the other hand, typically contains 300 MILLION volts. Thus, it isn’t an antifeat nor is it a feat for the lightning.

In fact, Kaigaku’s “thunder” is quite literally black, which further makes it more unlikely for it to be REAL lightning.

Now, let’s look at some conditions for lightning speed.

1. Makes muscles of affected beings contract: invalid, has never been shown

2. Has an electromagnetic field: invalid, has never been shown

3. Being shown to move with a speed similar to lightning: invalid, no identifiers can be pinpointed for it moving at such a speed

4. Flowing through conducting materials: invalid, has never been shown

5. Character can manipulate electricity or electromagnetism: partially valid, Kaigaku can control electricity but electromagnetism has never been shown

6. Can cause electrolysis or ozone: invalid, has never been shown

So, what will be changed if this goes through?

The current 8-A feat (217 tons) will become invalid, and the top tiers will go back to being baseline (100 tons) through upscaling from Douma’s 8-B+ calc. Essentially, the verse will go back to what it was before, back when 8-As were 8-B+.

In terms of speed, the verse will now rely on this speed calc by Muichiro, which is Mach 526. In other words, the Massively Hypersonic+ characters will become Massively Hypersonic.

I thank you all for reading through this, and I hope revisions will go smoothly.

 

[SuperStar]

Following

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I agree

Good luck with the downgrade

 

[Armorchompy]

Let's see, seems reasonable

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Makes sense unless someone can prove this is ACTUAL Lightning

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Next step is to make a downgrade of the other calculations

Fodder Demons having transonic speed is something there is no source

 

[Armorchompy]

Focus on topic boys

 

[SuperStar]

Focus on topic boys

Can you tag @Nehz_XZX? he might be the most knowledgeable on the verse

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

This seems reasonable to me.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I’ll wait for more verse supporters to show up

 

[Baken384]

Not bad, this makes sense I suppose. Havealwaysbeensusaboutthatcalc...

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Can you tag @Nehz_XZX? he might be the most knowledgeable on the verse

I'm already aware of this thread and watching it.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

I'm already aware of this thread and watching it.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Jibz]

Agreed

 

[Nehz_XZX]

What are your thoughts?

It's rather late at my place, so I'd prefer to go into detail about this at a later point in time.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

It's rather late at my place, so I'd prefer to go into detail about this at a later point in time.

Fair enough

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

We are talking about Blood Demon Art; not regular Breathing Techniques. It happens that Kaikagu isn't the only electricity-using Blood Demon Art user.

3. Rending and burning flesh doesn’t mean the electricity is lightning speed.
Rending flesh and causing burns is something that electricity can do starting from about 500 volts. Real lightning, on the other hand, typically contains 300 MILLION volts. Thus, it isn’t an antifeat nor is it a feat for the lightning.

This is evidence for attributes of real-life electricity. More evidence is that Zenitsu developed Lichtenberg figure scars, which occurs when cloud-to-ground lightning flows through a human being.

Per the wiki's guidelines, once there is evidence of a few properties of real-electricity, and there is energy of approximately 1.6 billion Joules, we can assume the speed of cloud-to-ground lightning:

Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis. Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

1.6 billion Joules is low-end 8-C, which is covered by Blood Demon Arts.

There are further properties shown by the other Blood Demon Art lightning user

1. Makes muscles of affected beings contract: invalid, has never been shown

4. Flowing through conducting materials: invalid, has never been shown

With the right material, you can stop Blood Demon Art lightning from conducting.

---

Hence we have the 'few properties' part covered. We have good reasons to believe lightning produced by Blood Demon Arts behaves like real lightning.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

We are talking about Blood Demon Art; not regular Breathing Techniques. It happens that Kaikagu isn't the only electricity-using Blood Demon Art user.


This is evidence for attributes of real-life electricity. More evidence is that Zenitsu developed Lichtenberg figure scars, which occurs when cloud-to-ground lightning flows through a human being.

Per the wiki's guidelines, once there is evidence of a few properties of real-electricity, and there is energy of approximately 1.6 billion Joules, we can assume the speed of cloud-to-ground lightning:

Lightning that has demonstrated at a minimum a few properties that real lightning has, and significantly less properties that lightning shouldn't have, can be considered real. Some examples of favourable properties are: making muscles of affected beings contract, having an (electro)magnetic field, being shown to actually move with a speed similar to lightning, flowing through conducting materials, the character being able to manipulate real electricity or electromagnetism in general, generating ozone or causing electrolysis. Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

1.6 billion Joules is low-end 8-C, which is covered by Blood Demon Arts.

There are further properties shown by the other Blood Demon Art lightning user

With the right material, you can stop Blood Demon Art lightning from conducting.

---

Hence we have the 'few properties' part covered. We have good reasons to believe lightning produced by Blood Demon Arts behaves like real lightning.

Multiple of your examples don’t apply to Kaigaku’s lightning and they only apply to Hantengu. Hantengu has his own reasons why he isn’t lightning speed; but applying the reasons to each other is an Association Fallacy

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

With the right material, you can stop Blood Demon Art lightning from conducting.

? It’s flesh; this would just be a Resistance to Electricity Manipulation rather than a feat for the “lightning”

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

More evidence is that Zenitsu developed Lichtenberg figure scars, which occurs when cloud-to-ground lightning flows through a human being.

This feat is also irrelevant; Lichtenberg scars are not listed as a qualifier for lightning speed

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Multiple of your examples don’t apply to Kaigaku’s lightning and they only apply to Hantengu. Hantengu has his own reasons why he isn’t lightning speed; but applying the reasons to each other is an Association Fallacy

We have lightning produced by Blood Demon Arts, and we have lightning produced by Blood Demon Arts.

It has as much association as using lightning produced by Chakra and an other instance of lightning produced by Chakra.

? It’s flesh; this would just be a Resistance to Electricity Manipulation rather than a feat for the “lightning”

Whether Blood Demon Arts lightning flows depends on whether the material conducts it.
But yeah, he has Resistance to Electricity Manipulation, but we shouldn't use this a red herring for the topic.

This feat is also irrelevant; Lichtenberg scars are not listed as a qualifier for lightning speed

The guidelines says Some examples, not "all examples".
I hope you are not going to argue that Lichtenberg scars are not related to lightning.

The qualifier for lightning speed is the energy after we have established that the lightning resembles real-life electricity via. displaying a few properties.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This is evidence for attributes of real-life electricity. More evidence is that Zenitsu developed Lichtenberg figure scars, which occurs when cloud-to-ground lightning flows through a human being.

In real life these scars are not black

 

[Kingofwolves999]

So is the assumption with that 1.6 billion joules thing that every verse that reaches low end 8-C should be comparable to lightning speed or what, idk why that even matters.

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Unless you’re trying to claim that having low 8-C energy means electric looking attacks should all be lightning speed

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

We have lightning produced by Blood Demon Arts, and we have lightning produced by Blood Demon Arts.

It has as much association as using lightning produced by Chakra and an other instance of lightning produced by chakra

Wrong. Not only is this irrelevant to compare it to Naruto, the circumstances are different.

Kaigaku’s electricity comes from his Thunder Breathing; Hantengu’s doesn’t. The logic behind both cannot be substituted in arguments for each other

 

[Duedate8898]

This is just a downgrade that was supposed to happen years ago but it kept getting dragged out and the opposition grew tired. I support finally getting this over and done with.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Whether Blood Demon Arts lightning flows depends on whether the material conducts it.

What? The same applies to quite literally ANY form of electricity, even the weak airborne forms that move at Mach 1.6. Saying that the lightning “doesn’t conduct” because the material is the skin of someone resistant to lightning IS NOT a feat for the lightning

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Also that conducting point is irrelevant since electricity does the exact same thing and is only supersonic in bare air. So again, idk why that matters much unless I’m missing something

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

The qualifier for lightning speed is the energy after we have established that the lightning resembles real-life electricity via. displaying a few properties.

Bro, the lightning is literally BLACK.

The Lichtenberg scars are also black; therefore you cannot apply them in an attempt to relate the lightning to the real world.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Lightning being able to flow through water = a feat for lightning

Lightning being able to flow through metal = a feat for lightning

Lightning not being able to flow through someone resistant to electricity = not a feat at all

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

In real life these scars are not black

If the counter argument is this level of nitpicking against any sort of minute artistic license, then the argument can stand on its own.
Also:

So is the assumption with that 1.6 billion joules thing that every verse that reaches low end 8-C should be comparable to lightning speed or what, idk why that even matters.


Unless you’re trying to claim that having low 8-C energy means electric looking attacks should all be lightning speed

The electricity attack should also display a few properties of real-life electricity.

Wrong. Not only is this irrelevant to compare it to Naruto, the circumstances are different.

Kaigaku’s electricity comes from his Thunder Breathing; Hantengu’s doesn’t. The logic behind both cannot be substituted in arguments for each other

Kaikagu is using Blood Demon Arts.
Did the properties of lightning I cited come from Breathing Techniques, or Blood Demon Arts?
If it is the latter, then we can say that lightning produced by Blood Demon Arts behaves like real lightning.

Also that conducting point is irrelevant since electricity does the exact same thing and is only supersonic in bare air. So again, idk why that matters much unless I’m missing something

The fact that real-life electricity does the same thing means that it fulfills the first requirement. Once it fulfills the second requirement (energy), we can assume cloud-to-ground speed.

Bro, the lightning is literally BLACK.

The Lichtenberg scars are also black; therefore you cannot apply them in an attempt to relate the lightning to the real world.

Sometimes Chakra-produced lightning is colored weird or looks like a snake, therefore Chakra produced lightning has no resemblance to lightning in the real world.

Lightning being able to flow through water = a feat for lightning

Lightning being able to flow through metal = a feat for lightning

Lightning not being able to flow through someone resistant to electricity = not a feat at all

So you are saying that lightning has the property of flowing and conducting depending on the material. Interesting to note.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Also:

This is nowhere near Zenitsu's case.

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Sometimes Chakra-produced lightning is colored weird or looks like a snake,

Read the Naruto page, that’s exactly why not all Lightning Style moves are Lightning speed. Ones like the Black Lightning, or the animal shaped lightning isn’t considered MHS

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

So you are saying that lightning has the property of flowing and conducting depending on the material. Interesting to note.

You’re clearly not reading. The lightning in Demon Slayer has NO FEATS of conducting at all. The only thing that we’ve seen is it not being able to conduct through someone RESISTANT TO LIGHTNING

This is not a feat for the electricity’s legitimacy

 

[Kingofwolves999]

The electricity attack should also display a few properties of real-life electricity.

The fact that real-life electricity does the same thing means that it fulfills the first requirement. Once it fulfills the second requirement (energy), we can assume cloud-to-ground speed.

Except this guys lightning doesn’t display any that are wiki standard. Your best evidence are the weird scar things which aren’t even anatomically correct to real life, everything else just points to his attacks being normal electricity, not lightning speed.

Also, where is his electrical attacks stated to be 1.6 billion joules? How is he getting to that number? Cause he hurt an 8-C character with them which is irrelevant since electricity ignores conventional durability anyway? Your entire argument is standing solely on the electricity being a certain joule level, so why is it that strong.

Also if that’s the case then every verse with an electricity user who can hurt people above 8-C should be lightning speed. And by your logic the only thing they need is to be conductive (which this lightning isn’t even, it just doesn’t go through flesh that is resistant to it) and it’s ok to scale them. Is this your belief?

 

[SuperStar]

I agree with the downgrade

 

[Kingofwolves999]

Also stop bringing up chakra, there are literally examples of lighting jutsu that are not lightning speed, you’re simply not arguing the way you think you are

 

[KingTempest]

Didn’t Zenitsu’s powers produce ozone?

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Yeah for the record, you cannot assume the electricity has 1.6 billion joules solely because it harmed a 8-C character. Electricity typically bypasses durability in fiction, and even does so in some form in real life. You need a statement of it being such

 

[Mazdoesstuff]

Didn’t Zenitsu’s powers produce ozone?

Not to my knowledge