Mash Burnedead and the God's Apostle Rematch (Mash vs Kouki)

[AnAverageUsername]

Since Mash has been upgraded for a while, and because the previous thread is taking so long to get over with, how about a little rematch.

Mash is at his peak, 6-B+ at 80 Teratons, and can not enter Unlimited Physical Mode unless deemed necessary

Kouki is in his After-Story key, 6-B upscaling from 10.31 Teratons, and starts in Overload, 51.6 Teratons

Speed is of course equalized

Strongest Cream Puff Enjoyer: 1 (LIFE_OF_KING)

Masochistic Hero: 1 (Expectro2000xxx)

Incon: 0

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

NO

WHY

WHY A LIGHT NOVEL CHARACTER

I CAN'T FIND THE SOUCE OF NOTHING

 

[AnAverageUsername]

NO

WHY

WHY A LIGHT NOVEL CHARACTER

I CAN'T FIND THE SOUCE OF NOTHING

HOW THE HELL DID YOU COMMENT SO FAST LIKE WHAT

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

HOW THE HELL DID YOU COMMENT SO FAST LIKE WHAT

Gotta go fast

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

HOW THE HELL DID YOU COMMENT SO FAST LIKE WHAT

The match appeared to me before you

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Anyways, any thoughts on how this would now go?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Idk nothing about this guy

But if Kouki is not even 6-B+ then he will lose with a single move if he is hit. Like, Mash really scales massively above 80 Teratons

And if he takes off his bracelets he will simply become unnoticeable and FTE to Kouki.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Idk nothing about this guy

But if Kouki is not even 6-B+ then he will lose with a single move if he is hit. Like, Mash really scales massively above 80 Teratons

And if he takes off his bracelets he will simply become unnoticeable and FTE to Kouki.

Yeah but the thing is, if Kouki uses his amps, would he catch up? This is why I contacted the main Arifureta expert, to see what they have to say.

Also UPM is restricted in case this happened.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Amplifiers are not useful since he apparently doesn't even become 6-B+ with them. Also, Mash has damaged Domina's Third Line form, which is already a massive amplifier from 80 tera.

The only way to make it fair is with hax shit. Because in physical terms Kouki doesn't stand a chance

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Damn, we better get some support on Kouki's side. This better not be a stomp, I dont want the only fair match so far to be a dead thread.

Either that or I can change it to his strongest key.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

No, it is not stomps. because

Status Effect Inducement (Any enemy caught in the light produced by his Holy Sword is weakened while he is strengthened

 

[AnAverageUsername]

No, it is not stomps. because

Ah, well that is good, I guess.

Also do the amps stack on top of each other or do they just get added together and then multiplied? Because if it's the former, wouldn't Kouki jump up to High 6-B if he's baseline?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

@AnAverageUsername I already said when you asked the value of Kouki both AP and speed but well, here is again:

After-Stories Kouki base upscale above 10.32 and can reach 51.6 with Overload, while with Auralodde is at least 51.6 in base, 154.8 with Limit Break and 258 with Overload, his base speed in the After Stories key is also unquantifiable above 36x FTL and since the multiplier of Limit Break and Overload also affect speed he would get a 3x and 5x buff respectively, with Auralodde is above his previous Overload in base.

I recommend to make Kouki begin with Overload already on because otherwise he just instantly get a 5x speed amp and blitz Mash, alternatively you can use the With Auralodde key and restrict Overload or Limit Break but the problem with Auralodde is that he just really need a cut to make a forest grow inside the opponent, though he is reticent to use it do to morals when he get in serious and decide to kill he probably will use, his value of life is also a bit distorted after get the smartphone because he can easily revive people so this would probably also make him more prone to use the plant ability of Auralodde.

The speed section of Kouki is wrong since with his amps he actually turn MFTL. Also from the battle against Mother when Kouki fought along Hajime he seems to be capable to follow Riftwalk Overload Hajime (so a 60x speed amp), Hajime in taht moments wasn't as fast as normally but Kouki was also equally nerfed in speed so considering how both were equally weakened the amp still should have be a 60x.

No, it is not stomps. because

As sais in the previous match the weakening effect of the sword is minimal, isn't gonna affect the fight at all.

The win cons of Kouki are the same as before, better skill, stamina and versatility, though know they are even better since I revised the main story (though the new things still aren't in the profile do to not having my pc to edit) and because I'm reading Zero, he don't get any crazy hax but the skill feats are much better do to upscaling above the rest of the verse.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I recommend to make Kouki begin with Overload already on because otherwise he just instantly get a 5x speed amp and blitz Mash, alternatively you can use the With Auralodde key and restrict Overload or Limit Break but the problem with Auralodde is that he just really need a cut to make a forest grow inside the opponent, though he is reticent to use it do to morals when he get in serious and decide to kill he probably will use, his value of life is also a bit distorted after get the smartphone because he can easily revive people so this would probably also make him more prone to use the plant ability of Auralodde.

I see, I'll edit the OP and make him start in Overload.

Just in case, would it be wise to allow Mash to enter Unlimited Physical Mode?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

5x speed amp and blitz Mash

Mash has already been able to fight characters much faster than him and dodge attacks more than twice his speed through sheer skill even at close range, so well. Plus he still has the unlimited mode (Subsonic to FTL+)

And if Kouki scales to 50 tera, then I also think it is unlikely to seriously injure the Mash's body.

So I think it's fair

better skill, stamina and versatility

I think I can argue about this again

Actually, I didn't even argue that time, so well

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I see, I'll edit the OP and make him start in Overload.

Just in case, would it be wise to allow Mash to enter Unlimited Physical Mode?

If is With Auralodde Kouki then would be fine to use UPM, especially if he can use Limit Break. And I just thought in a way that can prevent Kouki to use the plant hax which would make things more fair, and that's if both can't kill the other, to begin with both of them don't like to kill so this wouldn't really affect them much and would solve the plant problem with that key.

Mash has already been able to fight characters much faster than him and dodge attacks more than twice his speed through sheer skill even at close range, so well. Plus he still has the unlimited mode (Subsonic to FTL+)

And if Kouki scales to 50 tera, then I also think it is unlikely to seriously injure the Mash's body.

So I think it's fair

I think I can argue about this again

Actually, I didn't even argue that time, so well

Pretty sure that a 5x speed amp > twice speed, people comparable to Hajime speed don't have problems to face him when he use his 12x speed amp do skill, Meld and Gahard also could defeat the students do to skill despite the stats difference (Subsonic against FTL). And if you try to argue that he blitz do to UPM the the match can't be added since Kouki is faster than him.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Pretty sure that a 5x speed amp > twice speed

Base Doom is FTE for Mash

Then he gets twice as fast as before

And then just centimeters away from hitting Mash's body he manages to dodge

It's not 5 times but you get the idea

people comparable to Hajime speed don't have problems to face him when he use his 12x speed amp do skill

Wait

I don't get it

Meld and Gahard also could defeat the students do to skill despite the stats difference (Subsonic against FTL

Sus, sus for hell

Like, can you at least elaborate? Because looking at Gahard's profile it gets even stranger

 

[AnAverageUsername]

If is With Auralodde Kouki then would be fine to use UPM, especially if he can use Limit Break. And I just thought in a way that can prevent Kouki to use the plant hax which would make things more fair, and that's if both can't kill the other, to begin with both of them don't like to kill so this wouldn't really affect them much and would solve the plant problem with that key.

Pretty sure that a 5x speed amp > twice speed, people comparable to Hajime speed don't have problems to face him when he use his 12x speed amp do skill, Meld and Gahard also could defeat the students do to skill despite the stats difference (Subsonic against FTL). And if you try to argue that he blitz do to UPM the the match can't be added since Kouki is faster than him.

Mashle
Arifureta

Having bizarre as hell speed scaling

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Base Doom is FTE for Mash

Then he gets twice as fast as before

And then just centimeters away from hitting Mash's body he manages to dodge

It's not 5 times but you get the idea


Wait

I don't get it

Sus, sus for hell

Like, can you at least elaborate? Because looking at Gahard's profile it gets even stranger

I mean, still not sure if that would justify argue that Mash can ignore a 5x speed difference by vs standards,.

I mean that the combat centered students, aka the hero party, never were capable of defeat people like Meld or Gahard because of how skilled both of them were. The hero party are rated as FTL scaling to Kouki, Shizuku and even Kaori the healer of the party, all of them who can move faster than light with statements and feats about it.

Understable that you get confused with Gahard profile since the thing is severly outdated, I did some crts that improve his and Meld profiles, I basically revised all profiles in the verse but do to not having my pc currently I can't apply the changes. But returning to the original point, Gahard defeated Kouki

“Prepare yourself, Hero. If you hold back again...” Goosebumps coated Kouki’s arms. The bodyguard’s tone of voice clearly conveyed what awaited him if he held back. There was a sudden surge of bloodlust, which made Kouki’s instincts start screaming at him. He quickly raised his sword over his head, which was the only thing that prevented him from being decapitated right then and there.

“Ugh!?” There was the loud thump of sword against sword as their weapons met. The force of the man’s unrefined swing sent Kouki to his knees, and he gazed up into the bodyguard’s eyes, his thoughts paralyzed by shock. How on earth did he get to me so quickly!?

 

[AnAverageUsername]

So uhh, should I change the keys to their strongest variants? Because with UPM, Mash would be able to use his better speed maps to make this even, maybe, like what was said earlier.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I mean that the combat centered students, aka the hero party, never were capable of defeat people like Meld or Gahard because of how skilled both of them were. The hero party are rated as FTL scaling to Kouki, Shizuku and even Kaori the healer of the party, all of them who can move faster than light with statements and feats about it.

To be fair, that is not an elaboration. You saying that he is Subsonic and has defeated FTL characters through sheer skill while being someone slower than sound is not really proving the context of things.

But returning to the original point, Gahard defeated Kouki

So why is this being used to defend Youri?

Btw

He quickly raised his sword over his head, which was the only thing that prevented him from being decapitated right then and there.

Doesn't this prove that they are comparable?

I basically revised all profiles in the verse but do to not having my pc currently I can't apply the changes

So better forget about this thread until the profile is updated

---

And good night

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

So why is this being used to defend Youri?

This was end of vol 1 Kouki and the used here is more than 250 chapters later, when he become one of the top tiers in skill of the verse, and is used because it prove that with skill people can fight opponents above them.

Btw

Doesn't this prove that they are comparable?

Actually no, this Kouki already far surpassed Gahard in stats, this Kouki already completed the 65th floor of Orcus labyrinth and defeated with relatively easy the Behemoth, the monster who easily killed the strongest adventurer of history, to put in perspective the Behemoth was undamaged after receive the strongest attack of a Kouki that was comparable to Meld and Meld is comparable to Gahard, to begin with Gahard come to see the strongest of humanity. So the Kouki that Gahard faced was far above him, which is why Kouki was so utterly shocked to see how someone other than his classmates could face him.

So better forget about this thread until the profile is updated

No? I mean, Kouki profile is quite complete, at least the after story part have basically every skill feat along with the stamina feats and abilities, so this can perfectly argued.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Wait I just forgot lifting strength exists

Not only is it an important aspect, it could ruin the still ongoing other match

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Wait I just forgot lifting strength exists

Not only is it an important aspect, it could ruin the still ongoing other match

Yeah, LS is practically the biggest advantage that Mash have, though like in the other match Kouki have ways to counter.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeah, LS is practically the biggest advantage that Mash have, though like in the other match Kouki have ways to counter.

I mean, to be fair, it'd probably be hard to try and break free from a guy that has class Z lifting strength.

Also, Mash has the skill to sneak up on people who are able to sense a fight over a couple kilometers away, and also traverse underground, but I think there was an argument for Kouki against this in the previous fight. Mind refreshing the info?

Also, Mash does have his own speed amps through Big Bang Dash, so that might also help. Along with the fact that 80 Teratons is not his limit, and that he has a decent scaling chain, so maybe he can keep the AP advantage?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I mean, to be fair, it'd probably be hard to try and break free from a guy that has class Z lifting strength.

I mean, Mash would need to catch the sword which is hard with Kouki skill, he could hold the sword with his muscle but to that Kouki can couter with either make the sword bigger or smaller and it would be a trick of one time since after that Kouki would be prepared and counter by, for example, cutting Mash only with a magical blade of light that he can extend from his sword so the actual blade of the sword couldn't be catched or physically attacking in other ways that don't let Mash grab him, he can also simple attack with magic normally since one of his favorites moves in this key is create a mountain sized light dragon that send massive beams or create another aoe spells or use danmaku.

Also, Mash has the skill to sneak up on people who are able to sense a fight over a couple kilometers away, and also traverse underground, but I think there was an argument for Kouki against this in the previous fight. Mind refreshing the info?

I mean, someone of Gahard level can fight without sight or hearing and defend against a barrage of attacks (there were around 120 people attacking him since all the Haulia were there) from people with a stealth level that made them invisible and undetectable to races with far better senses than Gahard (better enhanced five senses and esp).

Before the guests could finish their toast, the ballroom was plunged into darkness.

“What the!? What’s going on!?”

“Aaaaaah! Wh-What’s happening!?”

Robbed of their sight, the empire’s nobles started panicking.

“Don’t panic! I’ll light the place up with my ma— Gah!?”

“What’s— Gyaaah!?”

“What in blue bla— Guh!?”

A few of the noblemen remained calm and tried to relight the room to get the situation under control. However, before they could they all collapsed onto the ground. Their screams of pain only served to further aggravate the remaining nobles’ panic.

Confusion and chaos prevented any of them from getting a solid grasp on the situation. Many of the noble ladies especially were running about frantically, which led to them getting picked off even easier.

“Calm yourselves! You bastards are supposed to be imperial men!” Gahard’s voice cut through the darkness. It served as a stabilizing force for the crowd, allowing the nobles to stop cowering in fear and regain their composure. Gahard attempted to bark out further orders, but before he could, there was a series of sharp whooshes. He realized something was coming toward him, and hurriedly raised his sword to block.

“Tch! Sneaky little bastards!”

Arrows rained down on him from all directions. They were surprisingly short, but possessed considerable force despite that. Each of them was fired with pinpoint accuracy, and the barrages came in waves, so even a skilled warrior like Gahard was forced to stay on the defensive. And because of that, he wasn’t able to shout out orders to the other nobles.

However, the fact that he was able to tell where the arrows were heading from of sound alone and then block them with a ceremonial sword proved that he was a monster in his own right.

Metallic clangs echoed one after another as Gahard blocked every arrow shot his way. Vol 7, Chapter IV

“Ah!?” Gahard’s aide leaped back on reflex, but it was too late. Though, leaping backward wouldn’t have done anything to negate the cylinders’ effects anyway. A second later, there was a blinding flash of light, followed by a shrill noise that pierced everyone’s eardrums.

“Gaaah!?”

“What the—!?”

Gahard and the others instinctively closed their eyes and covered their ears. However, the damage had already been done. The Haulia’s flashbangs had blinded and deafened all of the empire’s fighters.

And naturally, the Haulia weren’t going to let the opportunity slip past them. They completely masked their presence and charged into their enemies’ blind spots. Bereft of two of their most important senses, Gahard’s imperial guards were helpless against the Haulia’s onslaught. The rabbitmen’s black blades glinted in the dim light as they ripped through the guards’ tendons and limbs. Screaming in pain, they thudded to the ground one by one.

But the Haulia weren’t done yet. They also cut out the tongues of everyone they downed, in order to stop them from casting spells.

Across the battlefield, nobles and soldiers alike were crippled and detongued as they struggled to recover from the effects of the flashbangs. Any who tried to cast magic were beheaded instead.

Amidst the slaughter, there was a single clash of metal against metal. Somehow, unbelievably, Gahard had managed to repel the assassins who had come for him, even though both his sight and hearing were impaired.

The two Haulia who had engaged him stared at him in awe. And Gahard, picking up on their momentary lapse of concentration, went on the offensive. He stomped the ground in front of him so hard that shockwaves rippled out.

“Ah!”

“Ngh!”

The two Haulia lost their balance and stumbled backward. Even though Gahard couldn’t see or hear anything, he was still able to slash at the two of them with impeccable accuracy. His sword lashed out so fast that it appeared to be bending like a whip. The two Haulia crossed their dual shortswords in front of them in an attempt to block the high speed slashes. However, while Hajime’s expertly crafted blades were strong enough to withstand the emperor’s attacks, their wielders weren’t. The two Haulia were blown away by the force of his slashes.

The moment the two of them were sent flying, another hail of arrows assailed Gahard. Another unit of Haulia had been waiting in the wings with loaded crossbows. Unfortunately for them, Gahard was ready and waiting.

“Blow it all away, Wind Wall!” Despite the short incantation, Gahard was able to summon a wind wall strong enough to deflect all the arrows.

“Pierce through, Fireball!” With another condensed incantation, Gahard summoned a dozen fireballs and sent them hurtling in the direction the arrows had come from.

Luckily, the Haulia had relocated the moment they’d finished firing. Had they been any slower though, they would have been burnt to a crisp.

Both the speed of Gahard’s activation and the force of his spells were ridiculous. Moreover, even though the Haulia were hiding their presence, Gahard could somehow sense where they were. Plus, his swordsmanship was so precise and powerful that it took everything the Haulia had to defend against a single slash.

In fact, they were so shaken that for a moment their fear leaked through, and they stopped masking their presence. Gahard’s eyelids cracked open, and though he still couldn’t see properly, there was a feral gleam in his eyes.

“Found you!” He whirled around. Though there was no way he should have been able to see the rabbitmen hiding in the darkness, Gahard’s eyes were staring right at them. Their terror had betrayed their location. Vol 7, Chapter IV

Futhermore Kouki is capable of sense Kousuke who even before get magic and skills already was unable to be detected by machines or people even when they were in front of him, the after stories Kousuke that Kouki can detect is undetectable even by Mother who can sense spatial distortions at dozens to thousands of kilometers, said Kousuke also is more undetectable that a being born from the conception of be undetectable, so I completely doubt Mash could escape Kouki senses.

Also, Mash does have his own speed amps through Big Bang Dash, so that might also help. Along with the fact that 80 Teratons is not his limit, and that he has a decent scaling chain, so maybe he can keep the AP advantage?

I mean, he obviously have the AP advantage but with scaling chain alone can't be argued that he one-shot or AP stomp when the difference in values (51.6 vs 80) is like 1.55x, considering the scaling chain I can see Mash having a 2x or maybe a 2.5x AP advantage.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Yeah I'm not saying that he'd one shot.

Also I just realized a recent CRT was added for some abilities, like how Mash's accelerated development allows him to grow stronger and stronger to beat an opponent that's supposed to vastly outclass him. And he's supposed to do this 100 times. So that would equal a large scaling chain.... in the future because this arc isn't finished yet, so it probably can't be taken into account.

But going by how light novems work, I wouldnt he suprised if Kouki was some crazy accelerated development.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I will answer tonight

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Also I just realized a recent CRT was added for some abilities, like how Mash's accelerated development allows him to grow stronger and stronger to beat an opponent that's supposed to vastly outclass him. And he's supposed to do this 100 times. So that would equal a large scaling chain.... in the future because this arc isn't finished yet, so it probably can't be taken into account.

But going by how light novems work, I wouldnt he suprised if Kouki was some crazy accelerated development.

About AD Kouki went in 2-3 arcs that took a few days (a bit more than a week if also counted the days when he was in bed do to the great injuries after he finished to kill armies of thousands) from have a hard time killing a thousand enemies to kill several thousands (iirc it was 6 or 10 thousand, don't remember exactly the number right now), then after said battle he went directly to other battlefield and killed several dozens of thousands, the like half a day or two days later he killed one hundred thousand machine soldiers from Mother who analyzed and adapted constantly to him, then after another day of said battle he killed a army of hundreds of thousands of beings with each of them having special powers (one could kill with the sight, other could steal a sense, others controled the elements, others controled gravity, others were immune to blades, etc). In said arcs he also developed in middle of combat how to reflect back attacks and after some minutes he went from reflecting dozens of attacks to reflect hundreds to thousands at the same time, he also was capable of do the same with hundreds to thousands of attacks of a type which initially just one of them nearly blitzed him, he also gained the ability to extend his sword and while initially his limit was just tens of meters after like two days he could extend it various kilometers, the same happened with his light dragon. Basically everything from the after stories and Auralodde key happened in a bit more than a week.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

About AD Kouki went in 2-3 arcs that took a few days (a bit more than a week if also counted the days when he was in bed do to the great injuries after he finished to kill armies of thousands) from have a hard time killing a thousand enemies to kill several thousands (iirc it was 6 or 10 thousand, don't remember exactly the number right now), then after said battle he went directly to other battlefield and killed several dozens of thousands, the like half a day or two days later he killed one hundred thousand machine soldiers from Mother who analyzed and adapted constantly to him, then after another day of said battle he killed a army of hundreds of thousands of beings with each of them having special powers (one could kill with the sight, other could steal a sense, others controled the elements, others controled gravity, others were immune to blades, etc). In said arcs he also developed in middle of combat how to reflect back attacks and after some minutes he went from reflecting dozens of attacks to reflect hundreds to thousands at the same time, he also was capable of do the same with hundreds to thousands of attacks of a type which initially just one of them nearly blitzed him, he also gained the ability to extend his sword and while initially his limit was just tens of meters after like two days he could extend it various kilometers, the same happened with his light dragon. Basically everything from the after stories and Auralodde key happened in a bit more than a week.

As I said

I am not surprised

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Bump

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I will try to comment today. Yesterday I couldn't because I preferred to play Wolfenstein

However, my answer will probably be my last comment here to argue (if this fight starts again and if new people come along, I Will comment ofc) and I really recommend not to continue that match. The profiles seem to be outdated, 90% of the debate seems just a "Trust me" and Expectro is without his computer

And also because this debate seems boring as hell

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I will try to comment today. Yesterday I couldn't because I preferred to play Wolfenstein

However, my answer will probably be my last comment here to argue (if this fight starts again and if new people come along, I Will comment ofc) and I really recommend not to continue that match. The profiles seem to be outdated, 90% of the debate seems just a "Trust me" and Expectro is without his computer

And also because this debate seems boring as hell

Then again, having matches on Mash's profile would be great. Maybe if I use more notable characters....

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

You can use Lucifero, I think

It would also be a good idea to create a 6-B tournament

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I will try to comment today. Yesterday I couldn't because I preferred to play Wolfenstein

However, my answer will probably be my last comment here to argue (if this fight starts again and if new people come along, I Will comment ofc) and I really recommend not to continue that match. The profiles seem to be outdated, 90% of the debate seems just a "Trust me" and Expectro is without his computer

And also because this debate seems boring as hell

The rest of profiles of the verse yes, they are outdated, in Kouki case the changes are just things minor like danmaku or reactive evolution or rage power in the earlier keys, nothing that would actually impact this match since all of that is already in the after stories key (except the rage power, that's basically the only new thing) and all the important feats of Kouki (stamina, skill, etc) are from the after stories and are already in the profile.

The skill feats that aren't in others profiles, like the Gahard one about his fight against the Haulia, are things that I can show with scans like I did above so don't really understand what is the problem. And in case my words are doubious and can't be trusted you can call Celestial_Pegasus to confirm or deny what I say.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

This was end of vol 1 Kouki and the used here is more than 250 chapters later, when he become one of the top tiers in skill of the verse, and is used because it prove that with skill people can fight opponents above them.

Right, so Kouki in the beginning of the series was FTL and still lose to a subsonic character, but after 250 chapters he overcomes this character. "Fine", but I have a lot of problems with this

• It is impossible for you to be subsonic and defeat a FTL, no matter your sword skill or anything. The difference between FTL and Subsonic is approximately 8720930.23256 times. This makes impossible to have a fair duel. To give you an idea, a speed difference between this guy and bullets is 16294 times, with that difference the bullets to stay immobile in their position as if they were nothing. Now imagine with a difference of 8720930.23256 times. The old man would not even have a single chance to move, to breathe or to make any movement, because before his subsonic speed muscles fibers could even make his arm start to move Kouki would already be able to make millions, if not billions, of attacks; It is pure common sense. It is even understandable when the characters say "I'm capable of transcend space and time through pure skill", because it is something fictional and supernatural. Now a subsonic defeating an FTL through skill? That's a mathematical problem, and therefore can be applied to logic here
  • Unless that "skill" is an extremely specific mechanic, which is what it looks like looking at the wiki of the verse.
• Why is the old man considered so much slower than Kouki?

Actually no, this Kouki already far surpassed Gahard in stats, this Kouki already completed the 65th floor of Orcus labyrinth and defeated with relatively easy the Behemoth, the monster who easily killed the strongest adventurer of history, to put in perspective the Behemoth was undamaged after receive the strongest attack of a Kouki that was comparable to Meld and Meld is comparable to Gahard, to begin with Gahard come to see the strongest of humanity. So the Kouki that Gahard faced was far above him, which is why Kouki was so utterly shocked to see how someone other than his classmates could face him.

If this reason is because the old man is subsonic while Kouki is FTL then is sus. Gahard being massively weaker does not mean that he is so weak as to have a speed difference of 8720930.23256 times or that he has such a massive strength difference. This simply means that he is at a lower level, but still able to keep up. For exemple, Zeldris is outclassed by Ludoshel in a sword battle thanks to the fact that he is slower, but we do not say that Zeldris is a sub relativistic+ guy (faster result without statements about FTL) capable of keeping up with FTL attacks through sheer skill, we simply say that he is relativistic+. Like, downscale is a thing here in the site; Beating a character who remains intact after receiving his attacks through skill is fine by me though

AP stomp when the difference in values (51.6 vs 80) is like 1.55x,

Powerscale is a thing here on the site. Take this for example. If Mash defeats a 80 teratons character with one punch in the series, then he defeats another 80 teratons characters in matches. Like, how do you think Jotaro has so many wins? It's thanks to his scale chain and time stop. Another good example is Armostrong, who defeated characters above 500 kilotons via powerscale

The powerscale in Mashle is

Unlimited Mode at full power > casual Unlimited Mode > Domina being amplified by the Wand of Beginnings > Domina's Thirds (Thirds are considered a power beyond anything magic users can ever hope to achieve, "The Ultimate Magic") > Domina's Third Line (previously had been able to easily obliterate Mash physically) >= Mash's Bracelets limit (Capable of hurt Domina in his Third Line form) > Mash playing with water > Domina's Secondth (At least 80 Teratons, likely far higher; Considered at very least 10 times multiplier) > Base Domina (Domina is considered invincible by Lévis even after having his Third Line [Adamas] easily defeated by Mash) > True power from casual Mash during the fight against Lévis (At least 8 teratons, likely far higher; One Shot Adamas) > Adamas (At least 8 teratons, likely higher; He considers himself invincible compared to Mash) > How strong Lévis thought Mash was after defeating his Secondth while playing (At least 8 teratons) > Invariable Railgun = 7.86 Teratons

Kouki indeed has his own powerscale, but Mash scales to higher values.

So yes, I think Mash can easily defeat Kouki in terms of AP

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Right, so Kouki in the beginning of the series was FTL and still lose to a subsonic character, but after 250 chapters he overcomes this character. "Fine", but I have a lot of problems with this

• It is impossible for you to be subsonic and defeat a FTL, no matter your sword skill or anything. The difference between FTL and Subsonic is approximately 8720930.23256 times. This makes impossible to have a fair duel. To give you an idea, a speed difference between this guy and bullets is 16294 times, with that difference the bullets to stay immobile in their position as if they were nothing. Now imagine with a difference of 8720930.23256 times. The old man would not even have a single chance to move, to breathe or to make any movement, because before his subsonic speed muscles fibers could even make his arm start to move Kouki would already be able to make millions, if not billions, of attacks; It is pure common sense. It is even understandable when the characters say "I'm capable of transcend space and time through pure skill", because it is something fictional and supernatural. Now a subsonic defeating an FTL through skill? That's a mathematical problem, and therefore can be applied to logic here
  • Unless that "skill" is an extremely specific mechanic, which is what it looks like looking at the wiki of the verse.
• Why is the old man considered so much slower than Kouki?

If this reason is because the old man is subsonic while Kouki is FTL then is sus. Gahard being massively weaker does not mean that he is so weak as to have a speed difference of 8720930.23256 times or that he has such a massive strength difference. This simply means that he is at a lower level, but still able to keep up. For exemple, Zeldris is outclassed by Ludoshel in a sword battle thanks to the fact that he is slower, but we do not say that Zeldris is a sub relativistic+ (faster result without statements about FTL) character capable of keeping up with a FTL character through sheer skill, we simply say that he is relativistic+. Like, downscale is a thing here in the site; Beating a character who remains intact after receiving his attacks through skill is fine by me though

Powerscale is a thing here on the site. Take this for example. If Mash defeats a 80 teratons character with one punch in the series, then he defeats another 80 teratons characters in matches. Like, how do you think Jotaro has so many wins? It's thanks to his scale chain and time stop. Another good example is Armostrong, who defeated characters above 500 kilotons via powerscale

The powerscale in Mashle is

Unlimited Mode at full power > casual Unlimited Mode > Domina being amplified by the Wand of Beginnings > Domina's Thirds (Thirds are considered a power beyond anything magic users can ever hope to achieve, "The Ultimate Magic") > Domina's Third Line (previously had been able to easily obliterate Mash physically) >= Mash's Bracelets limit (Capable of hurt Domina in his Third Line form) > Mash playing with water > Domina's Secondth (At least 80 Teratons, likely far higher; Considered at very least 10 times multiplier) > Base Domina (Domina is considered invincible by Lévis even after having his Third Line [Adamas] easily defeated by Mash) > True power from casual Mash during the fight against Lévis (At least 8 teratons, likely far higher; One Shot Adamas) > Adamas (At least 8 teratons, likely higher; He considers himself invincible compared to Mash) > How strong Lévis thought Mash was after defeating his Secondth while playing (At least 8 teratons) > Invariable Railgun = 7.86 Teratons

Kouki indeed has his own powerscale, but Mash scales to higher values.

So yes, I think Mash can easily defeat Kouki in terms of AP

I mean, people of Gahard and Meld tier don't really have feats near 70 levels monsters be it either in ap or speed or feats near FTL (they would actually have a lot of anti feats of anything even close that), those with said level of feats are people at hero party level and above, hence why they are rated as subsonic. Though by that logic then the battle of Mash against the dude that stealed his speed, thus making Mash move at slow motion even to normal human standard, is also illogical because Mash wouldn't had been able to close the distance without the dude noticing.

I don't have a problem if in the end is considered that they should be upgraded or what, I'm indifferent about that but ask Pegasus since he was the one that put them at subsonic.

I'm taking in consideration Mash scaling chain, which is why I recognize that he have the advantage in that side, even saying that he possible have a 3x advantage. Now though if you try to claim that Mash one-shot or nearly do you will need to prove a 7x ap difference.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

Bump

Have any of you taken a vote yet? Or should I just change it to their top keys.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Bump

Have any of you taken a vote yet? Or should I just change it to their top keys.

I mean, in principle aside from a AP and LS advantage Mash don't really have more to his side, while Kouki retain the past arguments from the other fight about having the better skill, senses and stamina, now there even are more examples of good skill feats from people far below this Kouki in skill, for example the Gahard scene of him fighting without sight or hearing. So unless new things are brought to Mash side I don't see a reason to vote different compared to the last thread so my vote go to Kouki.

If is used the Auralodde key then even the AP advantage that Mash have would disappear.

 

[AnAverageUsername]

I mean, in principle aside from a AP and LS advantage Mash don't really have more to his side, while Kouki retain the past arguments from the other fight about having the better skill, senses and stamina, now there even are more examples of good skill feats from people far below this Kouki in skill, for example the Gahard scene of him fighting without sight or hearing. So unless new things are brought to Mash side I don't see a reason to vote different compared to the last thread so my vote go to Kouki.

If is used the Auralodde key then even the AP advantage that Mash have would disappear.

Fair enough, counted

Just thought from what was said earlier it would be more interesting, and for my caveman brain, I thought it would mean that it would be more of an even fight from both sides