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I agree with timius as he debunked few points of Kappas
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Marvel Cosmics Upgrade (Including Sentry and Statement Analysis)
- Thread starter Hykuu
- Start date
- Status
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@TimiusFate
- This comment is repeated hundreds of times in all of comics.
- The energies from it becoming unstable are now its entire power?
- That is from the dark avengers, completely non-cannon material and the embodiment of inconsistentcy.
-Databooks aren't consistent material in marvel.
- He himself just says it, have you shown him interacting with pre-recton or post-retcon beyonder? Wolverine gets rewritten all the time.
- Rouge says he was killed by thor lol. Good self defeating post.
- This comment is repeated hundreds of times in all of comics.
- The energies from it becoming unstable are now its entire power?
- That is from the dark avengers, completely non-cannon material and the embodiment of inconsistentcy.
-Databooks aren't consistent material in marvel.
- He himself just says it, have you shown him interacting with pre-recton or post-retcon beyonder? Wolverine gets rewritten all the time.
- Rouge says he was killed by thor lol. Good self defeating post.
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Yeah, I do agree with you to an extent, but the problem arises when you look at both characters here consistently having power levels which differ according to their mental states. But yes, most of this is current.
Yeah, as I said before, this mostly comes from it being unstable or old comics, the current comics portray sentry to be at this level every 2 pages. Thanks for the input btw.
@Kappa "that's not what's insinuated in the scan at all, nowhere does doom's shield have any invulnerability towards energy he's never encountered before whatsoever. this conclusion is at best your own head-canon. Secondly, the statement is saying his defence system cannot defend against the unknown energy of Sentry not that it couldn't defend against it because it was unknown. Doom's defence can defence against energy sources he's encountering for the first time before so your conclusion isn't supported whatsoever." ^
Exactly, it isn't, so it serves as an amp for doom himself outside of tech
Say what? It's not an anti feat for the phoenix, that was never the point? It's a feat for doom, I think you're a bit lost on what most of these scans are meant to entail ngl.
HE USES IT HOW DID HE TURN IT OFF ROFL, Also, as I said, Thanos did have killing intent implied by the narration, you can't say the same for most of the other heroes.
That's a unfounded presupposition but alright, also, why does he have to do that while being hungry, the ****? lol.
You literally see most of his face being broken and him having to resort to laying on the ground after the blow, and that's not even a rebuttal to it still being correlation to his durability? what??
Prove they are misinterpretations, otherwise, I am obligated to prove nothing. The scans are there, the context doesn't change what they imply, that's it.
Yeah, as I said before, this mostly comes from it being unstable or old comics, the current comics portray sentry to be at this level every 2 pages. Thanks for the input btw.
@Kappa "that's not what's insinuated in the scan at all, nowhere does doom's shield have any invulnerability towards energy he's never encountered before whatsoever. this conclusion is at best your own head-canon. Secondly, the statement is saying his defence system cannot defend against the unknown energy of Sentry not that it couldn't defend against it because it was unknown. Doom's defence can defence against energy sources he's encountering for the first time before so your conclusion isn't supported whatsoever." ^
Exactly, it isn't, so it serves as an amp for doom himself outside of tech
Say what? It's not an anti feat for the phoenix, that was never the point? It's a feat for doom, I think you're a bit lost on what most of these scans are meant to entail ngl.
HE USES IT HOW DID HE TURN IT OFF ROFL, Also, as I said, Thanos did have killing intent implied by the narration, you can't say the same for most of the other heroes.
That's a unfounded presupposition but alright, also, why does he have to do that while being hungry, the ****? lol.
You literally see most of his face being broken and him having to resort to laying on the ground after the blow, and that's not even a rebuttal to it still being correlation to his durability? what??
Prove they are misinterpretations, otherwise, I am obligated to prove nothing. The scans are there, the context doesn't change what they imply, that's it.
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We know you didn't follow anything Timius wrote.Maxnumb231 said:
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If the forcefields are not designed to keep out the unknown source, nothing will be stopped
Okay and that holds no value whatsoever because the Scan doesn't prove your conclusion. the foundation of your argument is contingent on his forcefield being designed to not keep out unknown energy. this conclusion is your head-canon and has no basis whatsoever in any of doom's showing. his force shield has been consistently shown to act as a protective barrier that protects him from both unknown and known energy. he's literally shown taking hits from the infinity gauntlet after witnessing it for the first time. the Scan posted does not imply in any way that doom's forcefield is invulnerable to unknown energies, in fact, we see the country existing within his character. This at best is again a conclusion you've come to with no basis and misrepresentation of the scan.
Okay and that holds no value whatsoever because the Scan doesn't prove your conclusion. the foundation of your argument is contingent on his forcefield being designed to not keep out unknown energy. this conclusion is your head-canon and has no basis whatsoever in any of doom's showing. his force shield has been consistently shown to act as a protective barrier that protects him from both unknown and known energy. he's literally shown taking hits from the infinity gauntlet after witnessing it for the first time. the Scan posted does not imply in any way that doom's forcefield is invulnerable to unknown energies, in fact, we see the country existing within his character. This at best is again a conclusion you've come to with no basis and misrepresentation of the scan.
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@Hykuu
You admitting context does not matter in this case, and that you aren't misinterpreting anything is everything anyone reading this needs to know.
show Doom consistently blocking unknown energy attacks with his forcefields.
Thanos was putting on a show for Death, which is why he held back so much. he wanted to give them a chance for death to be impressed. Seems like you didn't read the comic.
Galactus only builds his feeding machine when he is needing to feed. Have you ever read a galactus comic?
Galactus' face isn't broken, its his armor which does not do anything other than control his body energies.
Also, poisoning the well is spreading misinformation about someone before they enter into a discussion. The fact of the matter being that he was already involved means I cannot possibly poison the well. Also, falsely accusing others of attacking others is not tolerated either. He literally typed FRA essentially into a questionable post.
You admitting context does not matter in this case, and that you aren't misinterpreting anything is everything anyone reading this needs to know.
show Doom consistently blocking unknown energy attacks with his forcefields.
Thanos was putting on a show for Death, which is why he held back so much. he wanted to give them a chance for death to be impressed. Seems like you didn't read the comic.
Galactus only builds his feeding machine when he is needing to feed. Have you ever read a galactus comic?
Galactus' face isn't broken, its his armor which does not do anything other than control his body energies.
Also, poisoning the well is spreading misinformation about someone before they enter into a discussion. The fact of the matter being that he was already involved means I cannot possibly poison the well. Also, falsely accusing others of attacking others is not tolerated either. He literally typed FRA essentially into a questionable post.
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llThis comment is repeated hundreds of times in all of comics.
- The energies from it becoming unstable are now its entire power?
- That is from the dark avengers, completely non-cannon material and the embodiment of inconsistentcy.
-Databooks aren't consistent material in marvel.
- He himself just says it, have you shown him interacting with pre-recton or post-retcon beyonder? Wolverine gets rewritten all the time.
- Rouge says he was killed by thor lol. Good self defeating post.
this seems nothing but you blabbing on trying to find way to disregard the threat. making baseless claims don't substantiate your conclusion. provide evidenec and logical reasoning on why things are non canon or shown to be consistent, you saying it is is not enough justification to make that conclusion. seems like you're arguing me so from pure delusional negation then reasoning.
- The energies from it becoming unstable are now its entire power?
- That is from the dark avengers, completely non-cannon material and the embodiment of inconsistentcy.
-Databooks aren't consistent material in marvel.
- He himself just says it, have you shown him interacting with pre-recton or post-retcon beyonder? Wolverine gets rewritten all the time.
- Rouge says he was killed by thor lol. Good self defeating post.
this seems nothing but you blabbing on trying to find way to disregard the threat. making baseless claims don't substantiate your conclusion. provide evidenec and logical reasoning on why things are non canon or shown to be consistent, you saying it is is not enough justification to make that conclusion. seems like you're arguing me so from pure delusional negation then reasoning.
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@TimiusFate
can you stop poisoning the well and attacking me please? Your entire post is saying I used headcannon and did not interpret the scan properly, you didn't actually make a valid argument. Also, you have failed to show doom protecting against unknown energy.
can you stop poisoning the well and attacking me please? Your entire post is saying I used headcannon and did not interpret the scan properly, you didn't actually make a valid argument. Also, you have failed to show doom protecting against unknown energy.
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"- This comment is repeated hundreds of times in all of comics."
Ight feel free to post a scan which says the same, came after the comic and comes from a source as reliable as the void, the character has to be consistent with this, by the way.
"- The energies from it becoming unstable are now its entire power?"
A unquantifiable yet above infinitsmal amount of energy of a 2-A construct is still 2-A, the cube itself was sentient and fighting back aswell if you read the comic.
HOW IS IT NON-CANON LMFAO, you literally bring up instances of the events from the comic, Siege took place in the main 616 timeline, uncanny avengers issue 22 and 23 bring up instances from this, Dark X-Men follows the comic, Ares isn't dead when its confirmed he died, show a scan of it being non- canon btw. Also, you can't say it's Inconsistent without backing that up, what? I can say the same for any comic, this is a extremely weak point.
- Yeah, One made by Tony Stark isn't reliable, and hasty generalizations are also not that important in the context of any debate, Js. By the way, this is supported by canon sources.
- It's the narration, that's why it's in 3rd person.
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http://www.comicbookresources.com/?...le&id=26287
Q: CBR NEWS: In this scene, Thor finally ends the threat of the Void AKA Bob Reynolds by killing him. It seems like when you consider the Void's power level, the only way this could have happened was because the Void wanted to die.
Brian Michael Bendis: I see there is a lot of online speculation about that, and I thought it was pretty clear. I don't like to over analyze these things. I prefer the work to speak for itself, but I'll put two things out there. [...] Bob realized that things had gone as far as they could possibly go. There was no other end for him and without his cooperation he doesn't go away. I just didn't want to have a line in the script where someone like Spider-Woman goes, "Boy, if he didn't want us to kill him, we couldn't have killed him." I see a lot of people got it, though.
Ight feel free to post a scan which says the same, came after the comic and comes from a source as reliable as the void, the character has to be consistent with this, by the way.
"- The energies from it becoming unstable are now its entire power?"
A unquantifiable yet above infinitsmal amount of energy of a 2-A construct is still 2-A, the cube itself was sentient and fighting back aswell if you read the comic.
HOW IS IT NON-CANON LMFAO, you literally bring up instances of the events from the comic, Siege took place in the main 616 timeline, uncanny avengers issue 22 and 23 bring up instances from this, Dark X-Men follows the comic, Ares isn't dead when its confirmed he died, show a scan of it being non- canon btw. Also, you can't say it's Inconsistent without backing that up, what? I can say the same for any comic, this is a extremely weak point.
- Yeah, One made by Tony Stark isn't reliable, and hasty generalizations are also not that important in the context of any debate, Js. By the way, this is supported by canon sources.
- It's the narration, that's why it's in 3rd person.
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http://www.comicbookresources.com/?...le&id=26287
Q: CBR NEWS: In this scene, Thor finally ends the threat of the Void AKA Bob Reynolds by killing him. It seems like when you consider the Void's power level, the only way this could have happened was because the Void wanted to die.
Brian Michael Bendis: I see there is a lot of online speculation about that, and I thought it was pretty clear. I don't like to over analyze these things. I prefer the work to speak for itself, but I'll put two things out there. [...] Bob realized that things had gone as far as they could possibly go. There was no other end for him and without his cooperation he doesn't go away. I just didn't want to have a line in the script where someone like Spider-Woman goes, "Boy, if he didn't want us to kill him, we couldn't have killed him." I see a lot of people got it, though.
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@TimiusFate
You aren't bringing up anything that is debatable. You are refusing to interpret my valid arguments, arguments already accepted by Ant.
You aren't bringing up anything that is debatable. You are refusing to interpret my valid arguments, arguments already accepted by Ant.
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@Hykuu
Random energies from the existence of the Cube are unquantifable. The cube itself amps people to being stronger.
You didn't even mention Dark Avengers, so good job with your gishgallop.
Your link does not work.
The contradiction that you are offering would still discredit the scan with rouge and wolverine.
Random energies from the existence of the Cube are unquantifable. The cube itself amps people to being stronger.
You didn't even mention Dark Avengers, so good job with your gishgallop.
Your link does not work.
The contradiction that you are offering would still discredit the scan with rouge and wolverine.
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You might want to talk to your goons. Timius is spamming personal attacks throughout. them being accepted by ant means that they aren't illogical as timius thinks.Hykuu said:
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Can y'all chill wih the huge walls of text copy paste and shrink them down
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show Doom consistently blocking unknown energy attacks with his forcefields
http://i.imgur.com/8wfjGHb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HflKrJl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zFVom1t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zTb3z71.jpg
Every Showing of Doom using his Force shield is him protecting himself against unknown energy to his force shield unless you have a statement anywhere in the comic of doom's Force shield needing to register energy before it can block it. All I need to is is portray all instances of doom using his force shield and that would prove my conclusion. you've still yet to support your conclusion that doom's force shield is invulnerable to energies he's never encountered before which is the exact opposite of what's shown in the comics. I don't see How Thanos holding himself back in any way take away the fact that doom's shield still protected him against the IG which is an energy source he's never encountered before. The concept of Doom's force shield not being able to defend unknown energy is complete baseless claims and just sounds like a claim you're making to pass by time. Either prove this function even existing in his force shield mechanism or drop the point. you've responded to the scan with nothing more but your own head-canon
http://i.imgur.com/8wfjGHb.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/HflKrJl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zFVom1t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/zTb3z71.jpg
Every Showing of Doom using his Force shield is him protecting himself against unknown energy to his force shield unless you have a statement anywhere in the comic of doom's Force shield needing to register energy before it can block it. All I need to is is portray all instances of doom using his force shield and that would prove my conclusion. you've still yet to support your conclusion that doom's force shield is invulnerable to energies he's never encountered before which is the exact opposite of what's shown in the comics. I don't see How Thanos holding himself back in any way take away the fact that doom's shield still protected him against the IG which is an energy source he's never encountered before. The concept of Doom's force shield not being able to defend unknown energy is complete baseless claims and just sounds like a claim you're making to pass by time. Either prove this function even existing in his force shield mechanism or drop the point. you've responded to the scan with nothing more but your own head-canon
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Yeah, it amps them with its own energies, this isn't even a point my guy.
???????? You brought up dark avengers, do you follow the convo?
https://www.cbr.com/storming-heaven-siege-4/ here habibi.
A unstable sentry only died because he wanted to die, that's it, what you presented isn't a rebuttal yet again, you get that right? You just exclaimed something unsubstantiated yet again.
Also, poisoning the well can happen at any part of the convo.
"Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a type of informal fallacy where irrelevant adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say."
What you presented was information you had no way of knowing and was inherently offensive against Maxnumb, who said he agrees with timius as a way to ridicule and discredit what he said.
Saying it's head-canon isn't a personal attack, please grow up thank you. Also, can you stop trying to spit out things no one cares about? Why are you even bringing him "being my goon" when you can't objectively prove that?
???????? You brought up dark avengers, do you follow the convo?
https://www.cbr.com/storming-heaven-siege-4/ here habibi.
A unstable sentry only died because he wanted to die, that's it, what you presented isn't a rebuttal yet again, you get that right? You just exclaimed something unsubstantiated yet again.
Also, poisoning the well can happen at any part of the convo.
"Poisoning the well (or attempting to poison the well) is a type of informal fallacy where irrelevant adverse information about a target is preemptively presented to an audience, with the intention of discrediting or ridiculing something that the target person is about to say."
What you presented was information you had no way of knowing and was inherently offensive against Maxnumb, who said he agrees with timius as a way to ridicule and discredit what he said.
Saying it's head-canon isn't a personal attack, please grow up thank you. Also, can you stop trying to spit out things no one cares about? Why are you even bringing him "being my goon" when you can't objectively prove that?
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okay man saying your argument is not substantiated by evidence by rather your own opinion is a personal attack?. you really haven't done anything that disregards the prime feats of Sentry at all, nothing you've done really disporves the thread at all. i'd have been happy if you even just said inconsistency even that would have been a better response then what you've done here. in the end i don't see a single refute actually being presented for Sentry at his peak mental condition not scaling to this.
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So, I don't have the time to read all points and argue due to my exams, but here are my two cents,
- Captain Britain has an extremely inconsistent history, so his power level and tier is kinda spread out all over, so I think it's better to either give him multiple keys based on his power source at the time, or just leave him at an Unknown, *Excalibur's tier* at peak since currently his tier depends on his confidence or something. Not the best ranking, I know, but it's extremely hard to rank him any other way.
- Saying "Ant accepted my points" doesn't imply the debate is over, Kappa. If that were the case the Speed Revision thread would have been over by the first post.
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this applies to all fiction honestly, there are some inconssitent stuff and massive outliers but hykuu did kinda provded evidnece why it isnt an outlier. sure it can inconsistent but 4-B captain britian is also an inconsistent thing.Zark2099 said:
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Braddock's case is unique however, as every writer tries a new thing with him since the character is obscure. So he ends up being from just Captain America level to Fury level
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I still support Kappatalism, and am not going to accept these suggestions without very reliable members supporting them, but we are not supposed to quote walls of text, so I had to modify his posts accordingly.
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Yeah, he just gets stronger the longer his run goes, you shouldn't look at it from "he went from this to this" angle, but rather, how he reached that point.Zark2099 said:
@Antvasima I contacted Sandman, Matt, Ultima and Kep, though, it seems like nearly everyone agrees with the captain britian thing so I don't think it needs that much more support to be accepted.
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That's why asked there to be multiple keys for Braddock based on his sources of power. Having a single key for every appearance is going to cause alotta problems in the long run
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When you mention something pretty important nobody attempts to debate it.
I understand making Sentry top priority but can you give my first post some love ?
I understand making Sentry top priority but can you give my first post some love ?
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no one supported the captian britain things you posted. everyone that has commented to far says they're too inconsistent.Hykuu said:
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Setsuna tenma said:
Seem's logical i guess
9 hours ago
The 2nd Existential Seed
I'm sorry for the lack of explanation but I'm a bit sick IRL , but that won't stop me completely:
- I agree except for the fact that both Rogue and Co wouldn't be aware of the fullest extent of some mutant's abilities, such as FR but I'll go into that in a minute.
- Everything else seems accurate enough that if need be I'll just ignore it unless it's questioned.
Following, but so far i agree with the proposals. Sentry has a ton of anti feats (aka everytime Thor hasn't been vaporized by an attack from him) but those can be mostly be chalked up to Sentry holding back/outliners right?
4 hours ago
Qawsedf234
Captain Britain seems straightforward if this isn't a one off power up and he doesn't have consistent lower showings. For Sentry the most I support is a 2-A reality warping statistic.
4 hours ago
Me and Zark are coming to mutual agreement regarding there being more than 1 key, and max confidence being the tier I proposed in my OP.
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Code:
Yeah I hope my post doesn't get ignored.I think we'd have to do something similar with Braddocks wife.
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We need input from Sandman31, PrinceOfTheMorning, and other knowledgeable staff members before anything is going to possibly be accepted here. These suggested upgrades seem far too outlierish for my taste.
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Multiple keys for Britian is a better choice for this site rather than a straight change. Since, as I sorta guessed, his power just fluxes depending on who's writing him. Like with Captain Atom.
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@Qawsedf Do you have anything to say about what I mentioned prior ?
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@2nd Existential Seed
Using WoG statements is always risky in Marvel Comics, given that the writers change overtime. Also, if something has questionable canonicity, it's best not to use it, as except for the What If stuff, the canon changes rapidly. Case in point, Nextwave, which shifts between canon and non-canon every year.
Also, isn't History of Marvel Universe questionable canon? That's the same as using those sale report comics for scaling. And no, until Kid Franklin himself doesn't start creating multiverses, we are definitely not scaling him to his adult self. The character's own feats are the most important part of scaling them
Using WoG statements is always risky in Marvel Comics, given that the writers change overtime. Also, if something has questionable canonicity, it's best not to use it, as except for the What If stuff, the canon changes rapidly. Case in point, Nextwave, which shifts between canon and non-canon every year.
Also, isn't History of Marvel Universe questionable canon? That's the same as using those sale report comics for scaling. And no, until Kid Franklin himself doesn't start creating multiverses, we are definitely not scaling him to his adult self. The character's own feats are the most important part of scaling them
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Why was my reply removed? Hykyuu asked for my opinion on this
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This is more indirect WoG. but yes. The only reasons it's inclusion was denied was lack of evidence but this should count as such. Also this isn't one of those cases as Oldfather has been always a part of the canon since it's foundations [Biblic Saga Marvel] had Oldfather innit, as well as the current issues of Man Thing have him in it showing hes directly canon and most of the concepts integrate nicely. Even Incredible Hulk referenced the Fallen Stars. Also saying Marvel is inconsistent as a rebuttal isn't wise since the entire way we view Marvels hierarchy currently is through composites of several writers interpretations of the cosmology, so adding one more wont really change that.
Marvel's canon is literally " it's canon as long as it isn't retconned " which requires us to figure out how it goes and where to draw the line out of inconsistency. Canon as marvel puts it is so flipping loose as long as it wasn't retconned you can basically say it's canon.
Not really ? It's the very end of the Marvel Universe and scaling is literally the reason we have stuff like this. It wa intended to be the end of Hickmans Run so unless it is retconned it xan still be used. Also scaling is literally what we use, even if they don't have the direct feats. If enough scaling is present a tier change is likely.
Also... Narratively it makes no sense for Adult FR to be even far stronger than Chuld FR since he needed Child FRs help against the Mad Celestials, Hickman's Statement that Kid FRs energy was what made Galactus his herald, not Adult FR. It wasn't to amp himself against the Mad Celestials, and both Amped Galactus and Adult FR were equal in that fight... so by proxy so would Child FR.
Marvel's canon is literally " it's canon as long as it isn't retconned " which requires us to figure out how it goes and where to draw the line out of inconsistency. Canon as marvel puts it is so flipping loose as long as it wasn't retconned you can basically say it's canon.
Not really ? It's the very end of the Marvel Universe and scaling is literally the reason we have stuff like this. It wa intended to be the end of Hickmans Run so unless it is retconned it xan still be used. Also scaling is literally what we use, even if they don't have the direct feats. If enough scaling is present a tier change is likely.
Also... Narratively it makes no sense for Adult FR to be even far stronger than Chuld FR since he needed Child FRs help against the Mad Celestials, Hickman's Statement that Kid FRs energy was what made Galactus his herald, not Adult FR. It wasn't to amp himself against the Mad Celestials, and both Amped Galactus and Adult FR were equal in that fight... so by proxy so would Child FR.
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