Marvel Comics: The Infinite Universe

[Vasco]

what inconsistency would it create in terms of speed?

Heralds don't fight at infinite speed like at all and even so characters who don't deserve such tier get it due to you know comics inconsistencies.

Sorry, I meant TOAA's opinion.

how does TOAA opinion has anything to do with infinite universe?

 

[Antvasima]

Faced with hundreds of statements of the universe with infinite size.

A few dozen unverified and unreliable hyperbolic claims against actual extremely tangible evidence makes the former completely irrelevant in comparison.

what inconsistency would it create in terms of speed?

No herald level characters have been able to move at literally infinite speed during fight scenes, especially not the ones that cannot fly in outer space.

Where does that come from, the universe? The infinite universe statements don't seem to hint at anything you've mentioned, unless you make more assumptions than to suppose that these decllations simply say that the space of the universe itself is infinite.

I am saying that in the real world our local universe/cluster of galaxies is definitely of finite size, but space extremely likely continues forever outside of it.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Heralds don't fight at infinite speed like at all and even so characters who don't deserve such tier get it due to you know comics inconsistencies.

I'd say first introduce the feats that give you infinite speed if the universe is that size, so we can better discuss this.

how does TOAA opinion has anything to do with infinite universe?

Because as he represents each of the Marvel writers and is the author of "everything that is", the "inconsistencies" are actually variations within his view of reality.

Therefore the Universe may or may not be infinite in a single story, it all depends on how TOAA wants it to be.

 

[Antvasima]

Heralds don't fight at infinite speed like at all and even so characters who don't deserve such tier get it due to you know comics inconsistencies.

Yes. We are definitely not going to accept infinite speed. Period. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Antvasima]

I'd say first introduce the feats that give you infinite speed if the universe is that size, so we can better discuss this.

Because as he represents each of the Marvel writers and is the author of "everything that is", the "inconsistencies" are actually variations within his view of reality.

Therefore the Universe may or may not be infinite in a single story, it all depends on how TOAA wants it to be.

There is no TOAA as a person or character with an actual personality. It is just a representative of whoever is currently writing the book, and as such is a non-character. Your admiration for it as a concept is greatly misplaced.

Anyway, let's drop this argument please. We are not going to accept infknite speed or infinite local universes, no matter how much you bother us about it. We are just pointlessly wasting tkme by going in circles here, so let's try to do something constructive instead by using some version of what I suggested earlier here.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

There is no TOAA as a person or character with an actual personality. It is just a representative of whoever is currently writing the book, and as such is a non-character. Your admiration for it as a concept is greatly misplaced.

Anyway, let's drop this argument please. We are not going to accept infknite speed or infinite local universes, no matter how much you bother us about it. We are just pointlessly wasting tkme by going in circles here, so let's try to do something constructive instead by using some version of what I suggested earlier here.

That argument has already been accepted and that is why a whole revision of cosmology is planned.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/marvel-cosmology-rework-proposal.126987/page-2

Proposed Solution​

Cosmology split... with steps.

Essentially, Marvel has a REALLY good case for in-canon Cosmology splits, since the One Above All and the House of Ideas have been known to be able to change character tiers to a cosmological scale (Example being Nyx in Avengers: No Road Home), even able to create new cosmological beings from scratch (The One Below All), but most importantly, through basic insinuation and even basic dialogue, the One Above All is the representation of the writer, and every character in Marvel's narrative are just that, characters, subject to his whim. This implies the inconsistencies may very well be in-canon result of the One Above All's tampering towards his narrative, whether it's explicit or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I personally do not mind a cosmology split based on the classic pre-Quesada era and the one afterwards, but The Imp-ress seems to have left this community, at least for the time being.

Also, the problem here is that virtually all of the mentions of an infinite local universe seem to be unproven allegorical hyperbole claims, whereas we have explicitly been shown an edge and a center to the universe, and also that it was reduced to 1/10th its original size; combined with that infinite speed doesn't make any sense for most of these characters, including Hulk, Hercules, Ulik, et cetera.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

Well, I personally do not mind a cosmology split based on the classic pre-Quesada era and the one afterwards, but The Imp-ress seems to have left this community, at least for the time being.

I think someone else was involved in the review, so it can still be done.

Also, the problem here is that virtually all of the mentions of an infinite local universe seem to be unproven allegorical hyperbole claims

If you have a Super Genius who says that the universe could be infinite and then you have statements from cosmic beings, storytellers and omniscient entities who claim that the universe is infinite, I wouldn't say it's hyperbole or allegory.

Also tell me, how can you prove that the universe is infinite except through statements?

whereas we have explicitly been shown an edge and a center to the universe, and also that it was reduced to 1/10th its original size

That means that for these writers the universe is not infinite, and if there are feats of attack potency or speed that the entire universe is involved in in the comics written by them, they clearly won't be High 3-A or infinite speed.

combined with that infinite speed doesn't make any sense for most of these characters, including Hulk, Hercules, Ulik, et cetera.

Before we talk about supposed feats of infinite speed, I would say that we will focus on the size of the universe, then we will review the feats and check if they are legit and if they may be outliers or not.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still support my suggestion of combining the two views. I.e. the local Marvel universe that we know of and characters travel within, is shown to be finite, with the Negative Zone beyond its borders, but the 3-dimensional space outside of it is infinite and as such filled with an infinite number of other similarly sized big bang-created universes, which makes the local universe finite, and the sum total universe beyond that, which characters do not travel to, as the Crunch wall, the Negative Zone, and possibly other realms, are in the way, is infinite. That is the only way to resolve this issue properly.

 

[Eficiente]

If you have a Super Genius who says that the universe could be infinite and then you have statements from cosmic beings, storytellers and omniscient entities who claim that the universe is infinite, I wouldn't say it's hyperbole or allegory.

Infinite can simply mean ever-growing, which means they could be saying the truth in most cases. And none of them is exempt from saying hyperboles, many comicbook characters have a partially poetic way of talking, especially cosmic beings, omniscient entities, and narration.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Agreed.

 

[Vasco]

I'd say first introduce the feats that give you infinite speed if the universe is that size, so we can better discuss this.

Because as he represents each of the Marvel writers and is the author of "everything that is", the "inconsistencies" are actually variations within his view of reality.

Therefore the Universe may or may not be infinite in a single story, it all depends on how TOAA wants it to be.

The feats that would give infinite speed would be heralds moving through the infinite universe with sheer speed which would be infinite speed yet this speed has never been shown in a combat speed for them. Heralds don't fight at infinite speed even if you find a feat that maybe will prove infinite speed, characters who don't deserve such ratings would get it due to comics inconsistent scaling. They are characters who's individual feat alone won't make MFTL+ but due to scaling and all that they got such ratings now doing the same for infinite speed seems very wrong especially when they don't fight at such speeds though you can give them infinite travel but combat I heavily disagree.

TOAA "represents" the authors, readers and editors and this statement is from WOG iirc and even if he represents them doesn't change the fact everything ties down to the authors interpretation most of this books about infinite universe don't even feature him so how are we to know his involved with the universe size? We can't just slap TOAA representing authors to cover up marvel inconsistencies, when we know different authors are the cause of the inconsistencies.

Yeah I agree the universe size differ from stories as some writers would say infinite others finite, but using TOAA doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I still support my suggestion of combining the two views. I.e. the local Marvel universe that we know of and characters travel within, is shown to be finite, with the Negative Zone beyond its borders, but the 3-dimensional space outside of it is infinite and as such filled with an infinite number of other similarly sized big bang-created universes, which makes the local universe finite, and the sum total universe beyond that, which characters do not travel to, as the Crunch wall, the Negative Zone, and possibly other realms, are in the way, is infinite. That is the only way to resolve this issue properly.

So, would this be an acceptable solution, in lack of better options?

 

[Vasco]

You can tag Efficiente,KLOL, Firestorm and any other staff knowledgeable on Marvel.

 

[Antvasima]

You can tag Efficiente, KLOL, Firestorm and any other staff knowledgeable on Marvel.

Okay.

Well, I still support my suggestion of combining the two views. I.e. the local Marvel universe that we know of and characters travel within, is shown to be finite, with the Negative Zone beyond its borders, but the 3-dimensional space outside of it is infinite and as such filled with an infinite number of other similarly sized big bang-created universes, which makes the local universe finite, and the sum total universe beyond that, which characters do not travel to, as the Crunch wall, the Negative Zone, and possibly other realms, are in the way, is infinite. That is the only way to resolve this issue properly.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @Firestorm808 @LordTracer @Maverick_Zero_X @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @CrimsonStarFallen @Dark-Carioca @KLOL506

Would any of you be willing to help out here please?

 

[KLOL506]

These further new details I am not accustomed to, it's my first time hearing this.

I'll let the others decide this. Though will Sandman31 respond? It's been a while.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he visits every now and then, and is one of our most knowledgeable members.

 

[Hasty12345]

I have a couple questions:

1) what is the most recent statement regarding this matter in the comics? And why don’t we consider it enough to retcon all other previous statements on the subject matter?
2) isn’t Marvel’s multiverse constantly recreated? (I.e. 6th, 7th, 8th multiverse) if one era has more mentions of infinite than not, than wouldn’t it also make sense to consider in what multiverse these statements come from and only apply them to the multiverse the statement is native to?

 

[Antvasima]

I have a couple questions:

1) what is the most recent statement regarding this matter in the comics? And why don’t we consider it enough to retcon all other previous statements on the subject matter?

The most recent statement is the Reckoning War event which stated outright that a great universal war had caused the universe to have been decimated to 1/10th of its original size.

Several years before that, during the original Annihilation event, we were also explicitly shown that the universe is finite, as it has a border called The Crunch. And if I do not misremember, the Annihilation fleet entered the universe through it from the neighbouring Negative Zone.

2) isn’t Marvel’s multiverse constantly recreated? (I.e. 6th, 7th, 8th multiverse) if one era has more mentions of infinite than not, than wouldn’t it also make sense to consider in what multiverse these statements come from and only apply them to the multiverse the statement is native to?

It was recreated during the Abraxas saga, almost destroyed during the Chaos War, and entirely destroyed during the Time Runs Out storyline, after which it was restored by the Molecule Man. That's pretty much it. The other multiverses were established to have existed long before when the first Marvel comic books took place.

 

[Hasty12345]

The most recent statement is the Reckoning War event which stated outright that a great universal war had caused the universe to have been decimated to 1/10th of its original size.

Several years before that, during the original Annihilation event, we were also explicitly shown that the universe is finite, as it has a border called The Crunch. And if I do not misremember, the Annihilation fleet entered the universe through it from the neighbouring Negative Zone.

Well as far as I’m concerned, idc how many infinite statements there are, unless we plan on doing a DC style split, it’s been retconned to finite.

It was recreated during the Abraxas saga, almost destroyed during the Chaos War, and entirely destroyed during the Time Runs Out storyline, after which it was restored by the Molecule Man. That's pretty much it. The other multiverses were established to have existed long before when the first Marvel comic books took place.

Should we maybe consider statements pre and post Abraxas saga then? Even if only briefly to see if perhaps one is more consistently stated infinite than the other? (I’m still for just taking the most recent statements though, it seems like the easiest solution to these kinds of problems, retcons retcons retcons)

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the Abraxas saga coincided with Joe Quesada taking over Marvel Comics, which caused enormous thematic changes to its stories, and eventually very major changes to its cosmology, so I personally wouldn't mind, but I do not know how to properly structure such a change beyond that the Marvel multiverse was explicitly infinite-dimensional before that point, and that it could be destroyed by merely bumping all universes into each other afterwards, although I think that the latter was established first in 2015 and that Quesada took over around the year 2000.

 

[Hasty12345]

Well, the Abraxas saga coincided with Joe Quesada taking over Marvel Comics, which caused enormous thematic changes to its stories, and eventually very major changes to its cosmology, so I personally wouldn't mind, but I do not know how to properly structure such a change beyond that the Marvel multiverse was explicitly infinite-dimensional before that point, and that it could be destroyed by merely bumping all universes into each other afterwards.

It does sound worth looking into potentially splitting the cosmology to pre and post abraxas saga, seems like the fundamentals of the cosmology underwent a huge change from that event.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, more like the entire direction of the company.

 

[Hasty12345]

If anyone is willing to satiate my curiosity, could we perhaps list the known universe size statements from both pre and post abraxas?

perhaps the consistency changes with the direction of the company

 

[Lightning_XXI]

Sorry I'm late, but yes, Eficiente's points do show a Finite Universe, in my previous post I said that the best way to counter this was with Finite Examples

Well, I still support my suggestion of combining the two views. I.e. the local Marvel universe that we know of and characters travel within, is shown to be finite, with the Negative Zone beyond its borders, but the 3-dimensional space outside of it is infinite and as such filled with an infinite number of other similarly sized big bang-created universes, which makes the local universe finite, and the sum total universe beyond that, which characters do not travel to, as the Crunch wall, the Negative Zone, and possibly other realms, are in the way, is infinite. That is the only way to resolve this issue properly.

This works for me

Other possibility would be simply take both sides and say "At least Finite, possibly Infinite" for the Universe's size

 

[Hellbeast]

Other possibility would be simply take both sides and say "At least Finite, possibly Infinite" for the Universe's size

I can live with that, it seems a fair compromise

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Alright, when will we assume the universe is infinite and when is it finite?

Also, what is the crunch?
Is it truly the edge of the universe?

 

[Hasty12345]

Not really sure what there is to compromise on, if it's most recently stated as finite, it's finite, that's how retcons work.

 

[Antvasima]

Not really sure what there is to compromise on, if it's most recently stated as finite, it's finite, that's how retcons work.

Yes, that is correct, and it would not logically work for universal travel feats otherwise, as not even the Silver Surfer has ever remotely demonstrated infinite speed in practice, and the Hulk definitely hasn't.

However, to appease all sides of the argument and available evidence, I suggested a compromise solution, even though the evidence for a finite universe is far more explicit.

I am not willing to give any of the affected herald-level characters "Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite" speed though.

 

[Hasty12345]

Yes, that is correct, and it would not logically work for universal travel feats otherwise, as not even the Silver Surfer has ever remotely demonstrated infinite speed in practice, and the Hulk definitely hasn't.

However, to appease all sides of the argument and available evidence, I suggested a compromise solution, even though the evidence for a finite universe is far more explicit.

I am not willing to give any of the affected herald-level characters "Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite" speed though.

I'd imagine infinite speed would just be an outlier anyway, so I'm not particularly concerned with the speed side of universes being infinite. I think it's AP where feats become possibly more consistent, and as far as cosmological consistency goes, I do think it's easier to consider the most recent information as accurate for simplicity sake.

If an author comes and says the universe is infinite in a years time, then we take that as accurate. I'm so over these endless consistency debates. Neither of the two options are consistent, and any compromise is just silly and incoherent.

And if this approach leads to updates every couple years, so be it, this is an indexing site, the sole purpose is to keep profiles up to date withe the latest information. And right now, the latest information is that universes are finite, so I'm happy with treating the Marvel universes as always having been finite (barring a cosmology split where one cosmology can no longer be updated like pre-abraxas era obviously wouldn't be affected by post abraxas statements)

 

[Antvasima]

We cannot overhaul our entire cosmological structure whenever some random author inserts an unproven stray comment. We have concrete very explicit evidence for that the Marvel universe is finite in scale, and it was presented as crucial plot points for very major events, so that greatly trumps any unproven allegorical statements and hyperbolic claims of infinity.

I still maintain that my composite approach seems best until we get some kind of explicitly proven editorially sanctioned and consistently adopted official cosmological overhaul in this regard.

 

[Hasty12345]

We cannot overhaul our entire cosmological structure whenever some random author inserts an unproven stray comment

with how inconsistent comics are, every statements falls under this category.

We have concrete very explicit evidence for that the Marvel universe is finite in scale

No we don't, we have heavily contradicted evidence they're finite. You're only choosing to side with finite because in your opinion it's "more consistent" but in reality, it's not. Neither finite or infinite are at all consistent.

unproven allegorical statements and hyperbolic claims of infinity.

You can make this claim about any statement with the word infinite in it across all of fiction in any context. I've seen threads debunk the term "infinite" because an author didn't draw "infinite amount of x" object, I hope I don't have to explain you can't in any circumstance draw infinite amount of something...

There is no winning here, your interpretation is just as incoherent as those who side with infinite.

I'm proposing a solution that will settle the debate and stop these nonsense threads every 2 weeks.

Ultimately.... No profile will ever actually change because either finite or infinite most 3-A or above feats or infinite speed feats are outliers, so nothing actually changes, I think you're grossly exaggerating by saying:

our entire cosmological structure

The size of a single marvel universe is the most irrelevant aspect of the cosmological structure.

 

[Antvasima]

with how inconsistent comics are, every statements falls under this category.

Stray comments for allegorical and hyperbolic story narration purposes seem to happen far too frequently to overhaul hundreds of profile pages every few months.

No we don't, we have heavily contradicted evidence they're finite. You're only choosing to side with finite because in your opinion it's "more consistent" but in reality, it's not. Neither finite or infinite are at all consistent.

The point is that we were explicitly visually shown an outer border/limit, a center, and 90% having been destroyed, as crucial plot points during major storylines. That is far more convincing and reliable than authors engaging in Tom DeFalco-style flowery speech that is not meant to be taken literally.

You can make this claim about any statement with the word infinite in it across all of fiction in any context. I've seen threads debunk the term "infinite" because an author didn't draw "infinite amount of x" object, I hope I don't have to explain you can't in any circumstance draw infinite amount of something...

Just because it cannot be drawn doesn't mean that it cannot be reliably stated as a solid scientific analysis, for example, but in this case all we have is empty claims versus thoroughly proven evidence, so the latter is far more convincing to me.

There is no winning here, your interpretation is just as incoherent as those who side with infinite.

My interpretation is that we have to pull an Al Ewing and try to merge together contradictory claims into a coherent whole based on how our real world universe works.

I'm proposing a solution that will settle the debate and stop these nonsense threads every 2 weeks.

Your solution would likely require us to revise the speed levels, and possibly other statistics, of a large part of all Marvel Comics characters every few monthS, as Marvel is hiring a lot of low-paid amateur temporary writers, who do not properly know the source material and make sudden drastic changes without proper editorial control, nowadays.

Ultimately.... No profile will ever actually change because either finite or infinite most 3-A or above feats or infinite speed feats are outliers, so nothing actually changes, I think you're grossly exaggerating by saying:

The size of a single marvel universe is the most irrelevant aspect of the cosmological structure.

It is very relevant to the herald-level characters, but point taken regarding that it is just a part of the overall structure.

However, I am not going to budge regarding that I will not accept the local universe to be infinite-sized, given that it has been thoroughly explicitly disproven and would greatly mess up much of our speed scaling. However, I am willing to accept the 3-D space outside of the local universe to be infinite, which I think is a rather charitable compromise solution from me.

 

[Hasty12345]

Ant, you cannot sit there and honestly say you’d allow any Herald to be infinite speed even if the marvel universe was proven infinite by whatever scientific evidence satisfied your own personal standards. So stop making these broad over exaggerated claims of mass profile revisions. Literally nothing would change.

furthermore, you can have an infinite sized universe with finite matter, idk the context of that 90% destruction feat but it’s not inherently any sort of contradiction.

 

[Excellence616]

Yes, that is correct, and it would not logically work for universal travel feats otherwise, as not even the Silver Surfer has ever remotely demonstrated infinite speed in practice, and the Hulk definitely hasn't.

However, to appease all sides of the argument and available evidence, I suggested a compromise solution, even though the evidence for a finite universe is far more explicit.

I am not willing to give any of the affected herald-level characters "Massively FTL+, possibly Infinite" speed though.

Yes. Having infinite speed herald level isn't a good thing. Especially since most characters are rated as heralds because of scaling. Infact some of these so-called herald characters don't actually have MFTL+ speed.
We should just focus on infinite sized Universe and who will scale to it.

 

[Vasco]

Literally some don't have MFTL+ speed feats it's due to scaling they got such rating.

 

[Antvasima]

Ant, you cannot sit there and honestly say you’d allow any Herald to be infinite speed even if the marvel universe was proven infinite by whatever scientific evidence satisfied your own personal standards. So stop making these broad over exaggerated claims of mass profile revisions. Literally nothing would change.

furthermore, you can have an infinite sized universe with finite matter, idk the context of that 90% destruction feat but it’s not inherently any sort of contradiction.

I am not saying that at all. Dishonesty is much harder for me than a normal person due to my unfiltered mental condition, remember?

What I am saying is that the evidence for the local universe being finite is much more prominently featured, explicit, and reliable than the evidence for it being infinite in size. It is a quality over quantity issue.

However, I am also saying that it wouldn't make any narrative sense at all with literally infinite speed herald level characters, which would be sufficient in itself for me to oppose giving all of them this statistic.

And the two factors combining together makes me think that it would be even more unwise to not either consider the Marvel universe to simply be finite, or to be finite up until its border/The Crunch, after which it continues into the Negative Zone, and then continues into an infinite three-dimensional void beyond that.

How large do we currently consider the local finite universe to be? Wasn't a rough size established in a Jason Aaron (bleargh) story?

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Also, what is the crunch?
Is it truly the edge of the universe?

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Also, what is the crunch?
Is it truly the edge of the universe?

See here:

read comic online.li/Comic/Thanos/Issue-7?id=55153

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation/Issue-1?id=39409

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Prologue/Full?id=75093

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-Heralds-Of-Galactus/Issue-2?id=78094

read comic online.li/Comic/Annihilation-The-Nova-Corps-Files/Full?id=83445

 

[Antvasima]

Also, please take note that we should definitely not make a habit of doing what I just did. I am simply unable to upload specific images to Imgur with my account there, and also could not save the most relevant images from the site above, as its settings prevent that.