Marvel Comics: Scarlet Witch (HOM) Downgrade

[Vasco]

Thank you for helping out.

After reading the issues, I agree with the OP.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Ah yeah, I forgot to think, about this but Wanda get the ap low 1-c from the opposite action which opposite action is to remove the power mutants and bring back.

Wanda will get a low 1-c ap, is that a bit exaggerated?

My opposite action was simply to address your intial OP argument that, two forces being opposite isn’t a good enough argument to claim that they are not equivalent.

As it stands, The marvel comic depicted the phoenix and chaos magic as being balanced with each other, with the ying and yang sign, a common human concept. And not to mention we have a statement of tony claiming they they are both powerful together.

This is enough evidence to claim they share equivalence in power.

To suggest that they don’t, youd have to provide an example that shows that chaos magic is not equal to power to the phoenix.

 

[Lewis]

My opposite action was simply to address your intial OP argument that, two forces being opposite isn’t a good enough argument to claim that they are not equivalent.

As it stands, The marvel comic depicted the phoenix and chaos magic as being balanced with each other, with the ying and yang sign, a common human concept. And not to mention we have a statement of tony claiming they they are both powerful together.

This is enough evidence to claim they share equivalence in power.

To suggest that they don’t, youd have to provide an example that shows that chaos magic is not equal to power to the phoenix.

If duality is strong and weak but both are opposites. And you're saying they both have the same ap?
I think it's the ability not the character's ap

 

[Vasco]

The entire event wasn't talking about power, it's all about destruction and rebirth mainly talking about the mutants race, chaos magic erased the mutants and Phoenix can bring them back according to scott summers. This is mainly what Tony was talking about based on the story that's why he used the yin and yang analogy not about AP or anything that would make them truly equivalent to each other.
Even according to Scott summers the main reason of the phoenix coming was to revive the mutants race, cause the chaos magic erased most of them, This is nothing about both battling each other and wasn't even shown just Chaos erased most mutants and Phoenix acting as a counter force to revive the mutant after causing destruction which is stated by Scott summers.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

If duality is strong and weak but both are opposites. And you're saying they both have the same ap?
I think it's the ability not the character's ap

Strong and weak can be a duality, but in this case, we have knowledgeable character claiming that they are both powerful.

My point was that opposites can have equivalent power, not that they always do or always dont.

 

[Vasco]

we have knowledgeable character claiming that they are both powerful.

Dosen't really change anything tbh especially how everything was shown, no proof chaos magic and Phoenix force are equal in power based on the story in that book.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

Some agree with the downgrade while others don't

Hmm.

@Qawsedf234 @Elizhaa @Eficiente @Firestorm808 @LordTracer @Maverick_Zero_X @Deagonx @Pain_to12

What do you think should be done here?

 

[PrinceofPein]

I would suggest removing the Low 1-C part of her HOM Key, except IIRC her HoM key scales above her "normal" key, which has a Low 1-C maximum for fighting the abstract being known as Chaos, and for seemingly erasing the Phoenix Force from existence alongside Hope Summers.

if this is true, then she gets low 1-c in the HOM key regardless

 

[Vasco]

if this is true, then she gets low 1-c in the HOM key regardless

On her profile it's stated to be her peak with preparation, she's just gonna be 2-A.

 

[Deleted member 21887]

And what evidence do we have the HOM key is higher than the base wanda?

hom can say there are no more mutants immediately, and the base takes some time to prep, to say no more mutants?
but no more mutants is statistics only 2-A given.

 

[Vasco]

Wanda's No more mutants isn't AP just biological manipulation on 2-A scale.

 

[Deleted member 21887]

Multiverse level+ (Stated by Doctor Doom to surpass the Cosmic Cube Beyonder. Created the House of M reality and wove her spell into all existence. Depowered mutants all across the multiverse, in the process forming cracks along all realities),

It's literally in her profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, it seems more like a supporting feat as I agree that it seems much more like range than raw power.

 

[Deleted member 21887]

So what are the conclusions here so far?

 

[Deagonx]

I agree with the reasoning, but I know very little about Wanda in general, so if this doesn't change her tier but the reasoning is still sound, then we should change the justification to reflect that.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with the reasoning, but I know very little about Wanda in general, so if this doesn't change her tier but the reasoning is still sound, then we should change the justification to reflect that.

That seems reasonable to me.

Is somebody here willing to help out with that please?

 

[Vasco]

so if this doesn't change her tier

Low 1-C would be removed and she would be 2-A.

 

[Deleted member 21887]

That seems reasonable to me.

Is somebody here willing to help out with that please?

Help? remove the reason is equal to phoenix in the page? If yes, I can help.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with the reasoning, but I know very little about Wanda in general, so if this doesn't change her tier but the reasoning is still sound, then we should change the justification to reflect that.

That seems reasonable to me.

Is somebody here willing to help out with that please?

I would still very much appreciate some help with applying this change.

@Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @Ehnkr2beboh @Elizio33 @LordTracer @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Gasper @Maverick_Zero_X @Lightning_XXI @Deagonx @Vasco @Eseseso @MARVEL_Future_Fight_Gamer @Alonik @LuciferX @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Tllmbrg @Dark-Carioca @ObberGobb

 

[Gasper]

I agree with the op

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Avengers (2018) 51#

 

[Deleted member 21887]

I think this thread only talk about wanda key HOM.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

I think this topic only talk about wanda key HOM

HOM Wanda scales above the normal Wanda as she was amped. I think its very likely that the records are talking about amped Wanda anyways

 

[Deleted member 21887]

Show that Hom is superior Base. but if true, she'll only get tier 2-A.

if the thread ends. can you add new key such as Post HoM. and that scan is reason for new key to her get tier 2-a.

 

[LuciferX]

Agree with OP.

 

[Vasco]

Avengers (2018) 51#

I don't know how credible this is both Thor and Wanda with also help from Avengers and X-men could barely pull a win against 1/5 phoenix force Namor. But it's been constantly believed Wanda can damage the phoenix.

 

[LuciferX]

Low 1-C would be removed and she would be 2-A.

She performed a 2-A feat?

 

[Vasco]

She performed a 2-A feat?

It's on her profile, her 2-A feats.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Show that Hom is superior Base. but if true, she'll only get tier 2-A.

if the thread ends. can you add new key such as Post HoM. and that scan is reason for new key to her get tier 2-a.

Isnt she already by definition? Amped by Life force isnt that enough of an argument?

I don't know how credible this is both Thor and Wanda with also help from Avengers and X-men could barely pull a win against 1/5 phoenix force Namor. But it's been constantly believed Wanda can damage the phoenix.

The point is they at some point had the power to do so also i think thats a weak argument Thor fought the phoenix during the phoenix tornament together with a few avengers and they were doing just fine. Can we really go by low ends when Thor has many inconsistent levels because of "limits himself"? You could say Thor choose not to kill Namor.

 

[Deleted member 21887]

Isnt she already by definition? Amped by Life force isnt that enough of an argument?

Please show scan, if Wanda combining with Life force makes Wanda more powerful. IIRC it's makes you one with the creator only.

Edit: Sorry. I didn't read her profile in detail. my fault.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Please show scan, if Wanda combining with Life force makes Wanda more powerful. IIRC it's makes you one with the creator only

What? You would have to prove she become weaker after being amped because as far as we know Hom Wanda is at least as powerful as her base self, so unless you have any scan proving she somehow lost part of her base powers when she was amped then she is at least as powerful as base self.
Her wiki paga already let's clear by stating in her "when amplified by the life force" key
"All previous abilities enchanced to an exponentially greater extent"

 

[Deleted member 21887]

Thus conclusion of the thread this?

HOM retains tier low 1-c, but shifts from reason, equal to Phoenix. be above her Base, who fights Chaos, that being said equal to Eternity.

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know how credible this is both Thor and Wanda with also help from Avengers and X-men could barely pull a win against 1/5 phoenix force Namor. But it's been constantly believed Wanda can damage the phoenix.

Thor has the Odinforce nowadays.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

So the conclusion of the thread this?

HOM retains tier low 1-c, but shifts from reason, equal to Phoenix. be above her Base, who fights Chaos, that being said equal to Eternity.

Seems about right

 

[Antvasima]

Thus conclusion of the thread this?

HOM retains tier low 1-c, but shifts from reason, equal to Phoenix. be above her Base, who fights Chaos, that being said equal to Eternity.

@Deagonx @Eficiente @Firestorm808

Does this seem fine to you?

 

[Deleted member 21887]

Damn, I was really hoping to make her a 2-a only.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Damn, I was really hoping to make her a 2-a only.

That sounded Bias of you to say it

 

[Antvasima]

that being said equal to Eternity.

This seems suspicious though. It claims that Lord Chaos is suddenly not the embodiment of Chaos, that Mikaboshi is not an aspect of Oblivion, and that regular unamplified Nightmare is comparable to Eternity, all on the same page. I think that we should ignore it.

 

[Vasco]

Thus conclusion of the thread this?

HOM retains tier low 1-c, but shifts from reason, equal to Phoenix. be above her Base, who fights Chaos, that being said equal to Eternity.

The scan isn't working for me.