Small Upgrade for Scarlet Witch's physicals

[Eseseso]

This 9-A calc for Scythia was accepted by two calc staff (both of whom agreed with the High-End value of 0.123 tons of TNT), and Wanda managed to draw blood from her and took many hits from her even with Scythia using magic-nullifying gauntlets that negated Wanda's magic defenses. This same Scythia also no-sells this explosion in the same issue, with not even her unarmored skin being damaged.

Scarlet Witch also can match those who can harm her, and she also hurt a demonically mutated version of U.S. Agent, and later knocked out a demonically mutated U.S. Agent with a punch. She also takes a shield throw to the back of her head from US Agent with only a grunt of pain to show for it, no real damage.

So in short, 9-A is honestly consistent for modern Wanda's physicals, though since Wanda keeps getting stronger overtime no one else scales to the 0.123 ton calc (except Black Cat but she already scales to High 8-C).

Also, I'm not sure why her knocking out Doctor Doom with a magic blast was removed from her 5-B justifications and replaced with her downscaling from the 9-A U.S. Agent lol, so that should be put back. We literally see him trying to block the blast and still getting knocked out.

 

[KLOL506]

This seems fine.

 

[KLOL506]

@Planck69 @Elizhaa @Theglassman12 @Emirp sumitpo Would appreciate it if y'all could evaluate this.

 

[Planck69]

Seems fine at a glance.

 

[Dalesean027]

This is alright

 

[Elizhaa]

These cases look fine.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

I agree.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Surely that's grace right?

 

[Eseseso]

Surely that's grace right?

Yeah but I gotta wait a bit before 48 hours have passed

 

[The_Impress]

Okay so I had the time to read through some of the showcase for Wanda.

Firstly to address the Avengers World feat:

A prior issue establishes that their goal was to lead Wanda to a power-drain device made by Doom,

So when US Agent attacks Wanda he isn't attacking to KO, but attacking to distract, so 3D Man can rescue Valeria. It isn't to lay her flat because supposedly then her conjured robots are still a problem if she is in the vicinity.

And effectively when they actually do get her in the room, 3-D Man is effectively able to casually manhandle Wanda into the powersucc chamber with barely any protest from her. Now to be blunt, WHY can they just not KO her? Frankly the answer is a shoulder-shrug from the comics, but if we are noting that 3-D Man absolutely could just blitz her any moment and simply chose not to whenever she was outside, doesn't inspire confidence as to why Walker was giving it his all either.

All in all this is some very dubious scaling.

The Scarlet Witch feat has more shit, but also is just bizarre

Firstly she seems to cover her fist with some sort of energy to amplify her punch

This is the panel sequence in full, which I don't think inspires much confidence.

The monstrous US Agent manages to oneshot her later on. So with this context, do you want to believe that she was likely amping her punches, or she somehow randomly oneshots a character that was oneshotting her in two panels in a plot irrelevant moment?

So yeah suspect writing all along.

Moving further, I just sorta spent kind of an hour or so casually perusing comics, Avengers ones, and came across these antifeats:

• Gets overpowered by some random 10-B goons in Avengers Vol 1 81
• There is another feat of her getting rustled by Mastermind in early X-Men (Mastermind is like, 10-B), but I can't be assed to find it.
• Gets knocked out by the same attack that also knocks out Swordsman and Mantis, Swordsman is like, Hawkeye tier - Avengers Vol 1 129
• Oneshot by a normal ass bullet that grazes her, which also permanently harms her, Avengers Vol 1 38
• KO'd by an attack by Banshee that Havok was able to withstand, Uncanny Avengers Vol 1 10
• In general her comparability in Uncanny Avengers is with Rogue, she consistently fights her in the early half, and Rogue in this era we list as 10-A (which is probably sus too)

Now as I have said offsite, I don't mind entertaining the notion that Wanda has keys or that the characters are more consistent at 9-A. But currently keys aren't being proposed, what is being proposed is a direct upgrade to Wanda altogether on the basis she doesn't supposedly scale to anyone. Which y'know, is wrong. Fundamentally so.

I don't think you can even vouch for her true showcase being her solo series either, because she is far more prominently an Avengers side character: Her solo series altogether combined, consist of around 3% of her appearances in total. I solely listed Avengers runs here.

So yeah Es, as I said offsite, either propose keys or there should be a complete readthrough of her appearances altogether. Idm rustling up supporters for it either.

 

[Armorchompy]

Impress seems to make sense to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Okay so I had the time to read through some of the showcase for Wanda.

Firstly to address the Avengers World feat:

A prior issue establishes that their goal was to lead Wanda to a power-drain device made by Doom,

So when US Agent attacks Wanda he isn't attacking to KO, but attacking to distract, so 3D Man can rescue Valeria. It isn't to lay her flat because supposedly then her conjured robots are still a problem if she is in the vicinity.

And effectively when they actually do get her in the room, 3-D Man is effectively able to casually manhandle Wanda into the powersucc chamber with barely any protest from her. Now to be blunt, WHY can they just not KO her? Frankly the answer is a shoulder-shrug from the comics, but if we are noting that 3-D Man absolutely could just blitz her any moment and simply chose not to whenever she was outside, doesn't inspire confidence as to why Walker was giving it his all either.

All in all this is some very dubious scaling.

The Scarlet Witch feat has more shit, but also is just bizarre

Firstly she seems to cover her fist with some sort of energy to amplify her punch

This is the panel sequence in full, which I don't think inspires much confidence.

The monstrous US Agent manages to oneshot her later on. So with this context, do you want to believe that she was likely amping her punches, or she somehow randomly oneshots a character that was oneshotting her in two panels in a plot irrelevant moment?

So yeah suspect writing all along.

Moving further, I just sorta spent kind of an hour or so casually perusing comics, Avengers ones, and came across these antifeats:

• Gets overpowered by some random 10-B goons in Avengers Vol 1 81
• There is another feat of her getting rustled by Mastermind in early X-Men (Mastermind is like, 10-B), but I can't be assed to find it.
• Gets knocked out by the same attack that also knocks out Swordsman and Mantis, Swordsman is like, Hawkeye tier - Avengers Vol 1 129
• Oneshot by a normal ass bullet that grazes her, which also permanently harms her, Avengers Vol 1 38
• KO'd by an attack by Banshee that Havok was able to withstand, Uncanny Avengers Vol 1 10
• In general her comparability in Uncanny Avengers is with Rogue, she consistently fights her in the early half, and Rogue in this era we list as 10-A (which is probably sus too)

Now as I have said offsite, I don't mind entertaining the notion that Wanda has keys or that the characters are more consistent at 9-A. But currently keys aren't being proposed, what is being proposed is a direct upgrade to Wanda altogether on the basis she doesn't supposedly scale to anyone. Which y'know, is wrong. Fundamentally so.

I don't think you can even vouch for her true showcase being her solo series either, because she is far more prominently an Avengers side character: Her solo series altogether combined, consist of around 3% of her appearances in total. I solely listed Avengers runs here.

So yeah Es, as I said offsite, either propose keys or there should be a complete readthrough of her appearances altogether. Idm rustling up supporters for it either.

I'm not opposed to keys since we know she gets stronger over time and the feats above are done by her newer versions. Her pre-94 version is Peak Human at best.

But that would be in a future CRT. The 9-A is for her modern/current version

 

[Armorchompy]

I don't mind key splitting but it'd be good to do that before tiering revisions, it's hard to gauge if a revision to them would be correct or not when they're not in place yet.

 

[Eseseso]

Also, what about the 9-A Scythia calc?

 

[Eseseso]

I don't mind key splitting but it'd be good to do that before tiering revisions, it's hard to gauge if a revision to them would be correct or not when they're not in place yet.

I can do it in the near future just not now since I'm busy with some other CRT's so it'd be hard rn to focus on splitting the P&A

 

[Eseseso]

Okay so I had the time to read through some of the showcase for Wanda.

Firstly to address the Avengers World feat:

A prior issue establishes that their goal was to lead Wanda to a power-drain device made by Doom,

So when US Agent attacks Wanda he isn't attacking to KO, but attacking to distract, so 3D Man can rescue Valeria. It isn't to lay her flat because supposedly then her conjured robots are still a problem if she is in the vicinity.

And effectively when they actually do get her in the room, 3-D Man is effectively able to casually manhandle Wanda into the powersucc chamber with barely any protest from her. Now to be blunt, WHY can they just not KO her? Frankly the answer is a shoulder-shrug from the comics, but if we are noting that 3-D Man absolutely could just blitz her any moment and simply chose not to whenever she was outside, doesn't inspire confidence as to why Walker was giving it his all either.

All in all this is some very dubious scaling.

The Scarlet Witch feat has more shit, but also is just bizarre

Firstly she seems to cover her fist with some sort of energy to amplify her punch

This is the panel sequence in full, which I don't think inspires much confidence.

The monstrous US Agent manages to oneshot her later on. So with this context, do you want to believe that she was likely amping her punches, or she somehow randomly oneshots a character that was oneshotting her in two panels in a plot irrelevant moment?

So yeah suspect writing all along.

Moving further, I just sorta spent kind of an hour or so casually perusing comics, Avengers ones, and came across these antifeats:

• Gets overpowered by some random 10-B goons in Avengers Vol 1 81
• There is another feat of her getting rustled by Mastermind in early X-Men (Mastermind is like, 10-B), but I can't be assed to find it.
• Gets knocked out by the same attack that also knocks out Swordsman and Mantis, Swordsman is like, Hawkeye tier - Avengers Vol 1 129
• Oneshot by a normal ass bullet that grazes her, which also permanently harms her, Avengers Vol 1 38
• KO'd by an attack by Banshee that Havok was able to withstand, Uncanny Avengers Vol 1 10
• In general her comparability in Uncanny Avengers is with Rogue, she consistently fights her in the early half, and Rogue in this era we list as 10-A (which is probably sus too)

Now as I have said offsite, I don't mind entertaining the notion that Wanda has keys or that the characters are more consistent at 9-A. But currently keys aren't being proposed, what is being proposed is a direct upgrade to Wanda altogether on the basis she doesn't supposedly scale to anyone. Which y'know, is wrong. Fundamentally so.

I don't think you can even vouch for her true showcase being her solo series either, because she is far more prominently an Avengers side character: Her solo series altogether combined, consist of around 3% of her appearances in total. I solely listed Avengers runs here.

So yeah Es, as I said offsite, either propose keys or there should be a complete readthrough of her appearances altogether. Idm rustling up supporters for it either.

Also, most of these anti feats are from the earliest comics, not her modern self which has gone through all sorts of training and buffs.

Admittedly that further shows the need for a key split but still.

Modern SW is anything but the same as her early fodder self

 

[The_Impress]

So just do 'em later, presently if we are operating under "composite scarlet witch", I gave enough to feats and weakened yours that the scythia feat is an outlier (unless we're talking about a general 9-B+ upgrade, for which we need more threads and feats)

Es I get why you keep insisting for it, but genuinely: you don't have the number or tangibility of feats to give the proposals you are giving now, you have admitted to me you're only basing your scaling primarily off of her solo series :v

Key split comes first, and for that research comes earlier.

I'm not even trying to be mean here I told you what the proper process should be. If it's too much work it has to be done, and if you think the file is unusable without the rating as you want it, either list it unknown or get the file deleted.

 

[The_Impress]

Oh also isn't Scythia like, 5-B bare minimum? Like it's just Hippolyta, no?

 

[Antvasima]

I also agree with Impress here.

 

[The_Impress]

Like unless I am genuinely missing something

• Superhuman Strength: Like all Olympians, Hippolyta is superhumanly strong. Her strength is much greater than the vast majority of Olympian females, or even Olympian males. Hippolyta used to be of class 50 strength, whereas the typical Olympian male is of class 30. However, her strength was recently vastly enhanced when resurrected by various death gods, and it now considerably exceeds her father, Ares, who is a class 70. When wearing the Gauntlets of Ares her strength is furtherly enhanced and can lift nearly 100 tons.<a href="https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Hipp...ook_of_the_Marvel_Universe_A_to_Z_Vol_1_14-16"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span></a>

GENUINELY MISSING SOMETHING

Why is she 9-A, and not like, way stronger? What's the explanation for that?

 

[Eseseso]

I also agree with Impress here.

Of course you do

Like unless I am genuinely missing something

GENUINELY MISSING SOMETHING

Why is she 9-A, and not like, way stronger? What's the explanation for that?

Because that'd be a giant outlier so I went by the feats in the actual issues where she fought SW

 

[The_Impress]

That's cherrypicking, Es.

 

[Armorchompy]

Because that'd be a giant outlier so I went by the feats in the actual issues where she fought SW

It IS a giant outlier.

 

[The_Impress]

Like this kinda omission is either malicious or you truly didn't know how the wiki works. Why is a character you know to be 5-B suddenly 9-A when it creates a false consistency that you can get clueless staff members to accept? When have we ever done this for anyone? (Only instances I can imagine is some High 8-C calcs where a non-conventional attack or explosion gets calced at a certain tier because characters tanked a portion of it, but that's fundamentally different still because it doesn't act like every attack by Titania is High 8-C+, or Ultimate Nullifier's entire output is only High 8-C. Here you are presenting Hippolyta's AP CANNOT get better than 9-A)

Getting threads accepted isn't the point, getting accurate stats is.

 

[Eseseso]

Like this kinda omission is either malicious or you truly didn't know how the wiki works. Why is a character you know to be 5-B suddenly 9-A when it creates a false consistency that you can get clueless staff members to accept? When have we ever done this for anyone? (Only instances I can imagine is some High 8-C calcs where a non-conventional attack or explosion gets calced at a certain tier because characters tanked a portion of it, but that's fundamentally different still because it doesn't act like every attack by Titania is High 8-C+, or Ultimate Nullifier's entire output is only High 8-C. Here you are presenting Hippolyta's AP CANNOT get better than 9-A)

Getting threads accepted isn't the point, getting accurate stats is.

I am actually trying to find the most consistent stats for Wanda based on showings and how Marvel portrays characters.

I proposed High 8-C via her matching a possessed Black Cat, people hated that.

I proposed her matching US Agent, which you got removed based on, from what I see, vibes.

So I figured that going by calcs from her actual solo issue was the best way to go given how wonky Marvel consistency is.

And don't slander staff who don't agree with your opinions by calling them clueless.

 

[The_Impress]

I proposed her matching US Agent, which you got removed based on, from what I see, vibes.

Well currently it's not based on vibes. It's based on the scaling being suspect and logically vague, and her having more antifeats.

I don't see how this is remotely related to the Scylla point I was making, regardless.

So I figured that going by calcs from her actual solo issue was the best way to go given how wonky Marvel consistency is.

Why are you proposing her scaling to US Agent as a supporting feat then, if you're so against Marvel scaling consistency? Or not nulling her cross scale to Thor, Phoenix Force, or Galactus? Why is it relevant just here?

Like, dude.

And don't slander staff who don't agree with your opinions by calling them clueless.

I mean, I don't expect half the Marvel staff to know who Scylla was off the top of their head, hell I didn't before getting clued in by Confluctor because I had to ask what the deal with the chick even was.

Do I think staff should do due dilligence while checking threads, by asking who relevant parties are, and what is the knowledge-base OP is pulling from, and why did he mention "this is consistent with Modern Scarlet Witch" when nothing on the page implies we are doing a classic-modern split and yes-ing the thread anyways? Yeah, I've also had experiences with staff who have been utterly clueless on threads and less-than-honest about it, hell I've been less than honest at times back in the day too.

So I am saying it pretty objectively, staff should do this due dilligence, the key thing can be derived from the OP alone. I don't blame 'em, that's just kinda the workload, but also they needed to ask more questions for it to have been "wow active staff participation that i just dont agree with" as you're accusing

 

[The_Impress]

Also again how is 3% of her appearances more important than 97%? She has more concurrent Avengers issues than all her solo and duo runs combined. So if you are so concerned about cross-scale, why are you using her solo series at all when she's overwhelmingly a team-book character?

 

[Eseseso]

Okay so I had the time to read through some of the showcase for Wanda.

Firstly to address the Avengers World feat:

A prior issue establishes that their goal was to lead Wanda to a power-drain device made by Doom,

So when US Agent attacks Wanda he isn't attacking to KO, but attacking to distract, so 3D Man can rescue Valeria. It isn't to lay her flat because supposedly then her conjured robots are still a problem if she is in the vicinity.

That just seems to indicate he was unable to knock her out even with his best shield throw, so he was opting to distract her instead.

And effectively when they actually do get her in the room, 3-D Man is effectively able to casually manhandle Wanda into the powersucc chamber with barely any protest from her. Now to be blunt, WHY can they just not KO her? Frankly the answer is a shoulder-shrug from the comics, but if we are noting that 3-D Man absolutely could just blitz her any moment and simply chose not to whenever she was outside, doesn't inspire confidence as to why Walker was giving it his all either.

That's LS, not AP, plus he just shoved her and nothing shows him actually overpowering her so don't just make assumptions. By your logic, I can use SW yeeting a mutated War Machine as evidence for her power.

All in all this is some very dubious scaling.

The Scarlet Witch feat has more shit, but also is just bizarre

Firstly she seems to cover her fist with some sort of energy to amplify her punch

This is a valid response, since I see now that she does amp her energy which

At the same time, we have this:

And it's hard to say she just hit a weak spot when she punches him hard enough to (from the looks of it) break part of his teeth. Especially since this was a demonically beefed up US Agent.

And here's a scan indicating her being much stronger and more capable than her original self:

 

[The_Impress]

That just seems to indicate he was unable to knock her out even with his best shield throw, so he was opting to distract her instead.

Well supposedly they want her to go to the trap in an active state to expend her power and they're not going for kill or KO.

I think that's what the text is implying. It's what everyone in the comic during the fight wants. Assuming that US Agent specifically goes "No **** that, I want to take off her head, I HATE TAKING ORDERS" is a wild assumption.

At the end of the day the "feat" in question is a single panel, and even that panel has an explicit reason why it's likely not legitimate.

That's LS, not AP, plus he just shoved her and nothing shows him actually overpowering her so don't just make assumptions. By your logic, I can use SW yeeting a mutated War Machine as evidence for her power.

Instantaneous LS is AP, if she is getting pushed in the opposite direction of where she is resisting to go it's AP. Essentially that's why judo throws are usually not AP (or LS, funnily enough) because they work by sending you perpendicular to where you want to go. She does judo throws on War Machine iirc, here she's directly pushing against 3-D Man in a short timeframe.

This is a valid response, since I see now that she does amp her energy which

At the same time, we have this:

And it's hard to say she just hit a weak spot when she punches him hard enough to (from the looks of it) break part of his teeth. Especially since this was a demonically beefed up US Agent.

Yeah so she oneshots US Agent once and gets oneshot the other time. It would be a stalemate inconsistency, but also if we are given the first time she manages to do this is via an energy amp, then that's the writer's explanation for it. I'd argue you can see a vague aura around her fist during the impact, which might be artist's shorthand for the exact same mechanic being used again.

At the end of the day though, as said: her getting oneshot by US Agent is something that needs to happen for her to get to the next setpiece, her oneshotting US Agent is something that happens to get him to **** off so she can focus on the main threat. Like, you tell me which is more important?

And here's a scan indicating her being much stronger and more capable than her original self:

Which as we've discussed, would be a key, and not a blanket "60s + 70s + 80s + 90s + 00s + 10s + 20s Wanda are all the same tier which is the highest 9-A value in the verse".

Like this is a proposal I just fail to see why you're doing so out of order, the proposed feats are jank, the feats pool is inconsistent, its exclusively contributing to a concept you know is flawed, and the biggest source of my confusion: it's not even a difficult proposal.

Just, take your time and work this out.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump for more staff input.

Currently it's 3-2 if my math is mathing

 

[The_Impress]

What are you running a votecount on, this ain't subjective lol.

The feats are bad both logically and in terms of consistency, and the thread is fundamentally flawed.

Explain to me why the hell does the 5-B get scaled to 9-A, why does one singular oneshot count in one instance yet the same character oneshots Wanda at another (especially when there is a written mechanic to explain it away and the only reason it's not being considered that way is a single-panel art decision), and finally, why does US Agent contradict the plot and plan of the entire story to SPECIFICALLY KO Wanda which nulls the entire setup? And how are all these out-counting the antifeats?

Like you ain't closing the thread when you've not gotten a proper address yet. You straight up didn't even address the Scylla thing and that is a core point those three staff members yes'd.

 

[Armorchompy]

Bump for more staff input.

Currently it's 3-2 if my math is mathing

Those approvals came before anyone realized that the 9-A feat is coming from a 5-B character. At minimum I'd wanna hear their opinion again

 

[The_Impress]

Again though this isn't even subjective. She just has more antifeats and the feats Eseseso proposed are faulty-to-borderline irrelevant.

Literal 2 panels amongst thousands of appearances to say she is on the same level of super strength as Captain America by herself.

 

[Greg_the_master_of_gods]

everything said, demote her to 12-A.

 

[Eseseso]

What are you running a votecount on, this ain't subjective lol.

The feats are bad both logically and in terms of consistency, and the thread is fundamentally flawed.

Explain to me why the hell does the 5-B get scaled to 9-A, why does one singular oneshot count in one instance yet the same character oneshots Wanda at another (especially when there is a written mechanic to explain it away and the only reason it's not being considered that way is a single-panel art decision), and finally, why does US Agent contradict the plot and plan of the entire story to SPECIFICALLY KO Wanda which nulls the entire setup? And how are all these out-counting the antifeats?

It seems like US Agent one-shot her from behind, so sneak attack.

As for Scythia, like I said it seems better due to comic inconsistency to scale Wanda to Scythia's calcs, since Wanda should at minimum scale above Scythia's casual flex and should also scale above the helicopter explosion which Scythia no-sold while Wanda's punch drew blood.

As for the Anti-Feats, I pointed out how like 90% of those are from a much weaker Wanda who is way below her current self.

 

[Eseseso]

These cases look fine.

This is alright

Seems fine at a glance.

Those approvals came before anyone realized that the 9-A feat is coming from a 5-B character. At minimum I'd wanna hear their opinion again

 

[M3X_2.0]

@Elizhaa @Dalesean027 @Planck69

The 9-A feats are from a 5-B character but apparently, from what Eseseso told me, she doesn't belong to this tier and he wants to scale to the practical feats performed during the fight and not from a scaling Wanda doesn't belong.

 

[Armorchompy]

(Which is not really okay, because it's still a 5-B character, and limiting her to 9-A is cherry-picking to avoid the outlier)

 

[The_Impress]

@Elizhaa @Dalesean027 @Planck69

The 9-A feats are from a 5-B character but apparently, from what Eseseso told me, she doesn't belong to this tier and

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ProfectusInfinity/Hippolyta_(Marvel_Comics)

Actually for clarification it's a 5-B, possibly 3-C character, actually.

he wants to scale to the practical feats performed during the fight and not from a scaling Wanda doesn't belong.

Practical feats from a character that interacts with her once and consistently fights Thor tier or higher.

It seems like US Agent one-shot her from behind, so sneak attack.

Do you instantly shatter your skull if someone hits you behind?

As for Scythia, like I said it seems better due to comic inconsistency to scale Wanda to Scythia's calcs, since Wanda should at minimum scale above Scythia's casual flex and should also scale above the helicopter explosion which Scythia no-sold while Wanda's punch drew blood.

This is like saying Juggernaut should've scaled to Spider-Man when he plowed through the twin towers because it happened in a Spider-Man comic.

NOT a SINGLE FILE on this ENTIRE WIKI is scaled like this.

As for the Anti-Feats, I pointed out how like 90% of those are from a much weaker Wanda who is way below her current self.

AND THERE IS NO CURRENT SELF BECAUSE SHE ISN'T KEYED LIKE THAT.

 

[The_Impress]

Genuinely, how is this a ******* thread? He read 49 issues total out of 1400 and is basing his feats off that, he straight up hid the fact that a character is 5-B possibly 3-C when it was 9-A (whatever jank logic he gives DOES NOT matter when he fails to ******* mention it at all in the OP and only does so when I call him out on it), he knows the tiering is faulty for a general tier and yet he refuses to propose a key because "it's too much work", the supporting feats are TWO RANDOM PANELS that contextually don't even represent the shit he's saying it is, and his actual admitted obsession for this upgrade is he wanted Wanda to physically stomp Poppy Playtime or some shit.

I am ******* bewildered this thread is even getting entertained, he straight up did shit here that's actually manipulative beyond what we allow.