Marvel and DC powerscaling

[Antvasima]

Even as a loyal longtime fan, I think that this wiki to a degree has been inappropriately lenient when evaluating Marvel and DC characters in comparison to other franchises.

US superhero comics characters have frequently had a much easier time to get higher rankings than manga characters, due to power scaling them to each other.

The problem is that going by my extensive experience with both franchises, power scaling doesn't seem to work for Marvel and DC in particular, since their writers tend to be completely uninterested in internal story logic regarding relative power levels, mostly tend to use personal favouritism and plot convenience to decide the outcome of confrontations, are often completely inconsistent even within their own stories, and obviously far more so between different writers and decades who generally heavily contradict each other.

If we use cumulative power scaling for Marvel characters, in terms of that that one character defeated or stood up to an objectively far more powerful character, who did the same to an objectively far more powerful character, who did the same to an objectively far more powerful character applied to all of Marvel's history, we would likely eventually end up with Captain America powerscaled to the Beyonders, or similar.

I am considering that we should only go by individual feats, reliable definitions, and to a degree handbook rankings that clarify their official levels relative to each other, to classify Marvel and DC characters.

We can still continue to use it for more internally consistent franchises helmed by a single or unified creative voice who cares about it, but even Marvel's executive editor Tom Brevoort, who is in charge of Marvel continuity, including the official handbooks, responded to the inconsistency of Starbrand beating a Beyonder that beat the Living Tribunal, with that knowing the outcome of a fight from reading the statistics would take away the surprises of the story, whereas Stan Lee has stated that whoever wins in a fight is simply whoever the writer likes best.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[A6colute]

Powerscaling is a big problem itself. Because every particular case needs properly thinking about it. It's bad, but most people uses simple principle - "if character is stronger - all his stats is higher". Moreover, they think - "if character was stronger one time - he is stronger all time". I think it's a big problem too...

 

[DarkLK]

We can use "feats only" system just like FBO does.

 

[Kavpeny]

@Antvasima: Yes, I agree with this. There are far too many inconsistencies and illogical outcomes of VS match-ups. There are cases of extreme favouritism, which are backed by a ridiculous amount of PIS/CIS, often resulting in victories which the particular writer wants, regardless of the irrationality of the outcome.

Since comic books have a much longer history, and generally a lot more feats, I also think it would be far more appropriate to forgo power-scaling for comic book characters.

@A6colute: I agree with that as well. People use power-scaling itself incorrectly most of the time.

 

[Handsome_Protagonist]

We can use "feats only" system just like FBO does.

We can't go "feats only" like that because some guys legit do powerscale to one another, the problem is when people do it incorrectly like trying to powerscale Spiderman to Hulk because he "staggered" him.

 

[DarkLK]

We can use "feats only" system just like FBO does.

We can't go "feats only" like that

It was a joke

 

[Handsome_Protagonist]

We can use "feats only" system just like FBO does.

We can't go "feats only" like that

It was a joke

oh haha

Cuz fbo is a joke

haha

 

[SchutzenDunkelZiel1217]

I'm in full agreement with this...

 

[Antvasima]

As Lord Kavpeny said, given the long history of Marvel and DC, we should be able to get fairly reliable statistics for quite a lot of characters even without power scaling. However, going through all of the Marvel and DC profiles would have to be a project for the entire wiki to help out with.

 

[SeiryuShin]

We can use "feats only" system just like FBO does.

We can't go "feats only" like that because some guys legit do powerscale to one another, the problem is when people do it incorrectly like trying to powerscale Spiderman to Hulk because he "staggered" him.

This


Some of these people do have legitimate feats or statements of matching other characters around a certain "meta" level several times


the problem is people using one offs or non canon materials to powerscale from

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

why not ask the marvel authors about character powers

i rememebr this one guy from mvc who used to ask a marvel author or marvel authors about character powers

and he put them up as scans

but it will be hard to get those scans since a ****** known as unoeno rekt the site and all of the important vs thread- he messed up all of the thread titles, so it will be next tot impossible for me to get those scans

 

[Antvasima]

All of the Marvel authors over the years have had extremely different opinions about the strengths of different characters, which has been reflected in their stories. That is a large part of the entire point. The only real current authority is Tom Brevoort, and even he said in his Tumblr Q&A blog that powerscaling is irrelevant for Marvel.

I think that there are too many extreme contradictions from matchup to matchup and story to story for powerscaling to work for either Marvel or DC, and I have read an enormous amount of those comics over the years. Just because a certain character displays a certain extreme degree of power in one instant doesn't remotely mean that it will remotely possess the same scale of power in another, and that we can automatically scale from the higher instance.

 

[Kavpeny]

We can use "feats only" system just like FBO does.

We can't go "feats only" like that because some guys legit do powerscale to one another, the problem is when people do it incorrectly like trying to powerscale Spiderman to Hulk because he "staggered" him.

This

Some of these people do have legitimate feats or statements of matching other characters around a certain "meta" level several times


the problem is people using one offs or non canon materials to powerscale from

I agree that power-scaling is relevant in some cases. However, it is still occasionally contradicted by PIS-induced match-ups. Not to mention, power-scaling is also utilized incorrectly. A strength-only power-scaling might end up with power-scaling of all stats.

In any case, it would take a lot of time and energy to distinguish what is canon, and what is non-canon, no? Especially given that the continuity's canonicity is revised in comics (example: *possible spoiler* Convergence).

Better to go by feats all the way, isn't it?

 

[Kavpeny]

@The Living Tribunal1: That would still be the opinion of one author only. Other authors might have different perspectives, which would again lead to contradiction, followed by confusion and never-ending circular arguments.

@Antvasima: You hit the nail on the head.

 

[SeiryuShin]

No, feats only would **** up way more fictions than just marvel and DC.

 

[Kavpeny]

@SeiryuShi: I agree with you. Hmm...DBZ and some other popular Verses would be screwed, yes. But considering that anime/manga are written by one author only, the relative power inconsistencies are quite few. Hence power-scaling is relevant, since there is only one power-scale of the characters (the one in the author's head).

Comic characters on the other hand, have multiple authors, all with different notions of relative power levels of the characters. Since there is no universal, absolute, power-scaling measure (not to mention multiple retcons and continuity reboots), the end result is that there is an absolute mess of relative power levels, and multiple PIS/CIS feats by authors with their favourite characters.

I was suggesting a "feats only" approach for franchises having multiple authors only (this would include Marvel, DC, some Image franchises, etc.). It would also ensure that the anime/manga ratings are left untouched (since they have only one author per franchise).

Does that sound more reasonable?

 

[DarkLK]

Feats + subjective approach + logic + common sense should be good.

 

[Antvasima]

Exactly. Marvel and DC are special cases given the unique shared universe nature with decades of extremely self-contradictory continuity, with hundreds of different authors and editors who all have wildly different sensibilities. We can't use the relative power levels for one author in the 1960s and apply it to another present day author, or vice versa.

 

[SeiryuShin]

Feats + subjective approach + logic + common sense should be good.

This, something like Spider-man beating Fire-Lord? Obvious case of PIS

Thing putting up a good showing against Green Hulk even though he typically loses out in the end? This has happened multiple times and is fair

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

ok, then why not ask the current authority about only certain chaarters, since cosmic entities seem fine as they are

certain characters as in like thor, silver surfer and thanos

 

[Antvasima]

Tom Brevoort has said that he doesn't like battleboard questions, and despite that I have asked him numerous questions about the official nature of the Marvel multiverse, he has only replied to other types of questions that I have sent him.

Anyway, I may be fine with a certain amount of logical powerscaling, if a certain character is explicitly shown at a certain degree of power within a story, and another character legitimately matches that power.

For example: The Anti-Monitor at the peak of his power was matched by the Spectre. This seems rather reasonable. However, the Spectre almost matching Michael Demiurgos over a decade earlier than Michael was established as capable of creating a full complex multiverse under another writer seems far less reliable. There was no indication that Michael had anywhere near that level of power within the story that their fight took place. And there are plenty of far more extreme examples than that.

 

[Antvasima]

As for the Thing example, the Hulk has never demonstrated anywhere near his full scale of power during their fights, and the Thing has never demonstrated anywhere near as high comparable feats on his own, so I don't think that they can be powerscaled from each other. I simply think that allowing them to fight is fanservice done to celebrate a tradition started in the early 1960s.

 

[Sheoth]

Feats + subjective approach + logic + common sense should be good.

Yup this sounds good to me.

 

[SeiryuShin]

As for the Thing example, the Hulk has never demonstrated anywhere near his full scale of power during their fights, and the Thing has never demonstrated anywhere near as high comparable feats on his own, so I don't think that they can be powerscaled from each other. I simply think that allowing them to fight is fanservice done to celebrate a tradition started in the early 1960s.

Ok I wasn't clear here


their fights are not necesserily meaning thing = Hulk


but that thing's endurance can be partially scaled to green/base hulk considering his own feats + his showing against The champion and comparisons to She Hulk

 

[Antvasima]

I dunno. Like I said earlier, I only think that powerscaling for Marvel and DC applies to whatever level the other character demonstrated within that particular story. The handbooks listing certain characters as officially equal is fairly reliable though, but She-Hulk is currently listed far higher than Thing.

 

[SeiryuShin]

yeah he was like half as strong as she was in a "modern storyline"


it's much better than claims I've seen thrown around before of thing before city block level

 

[DarkLK]

As I said, we need to use more logic and common sense.

Complete rejection of powerscaling is not a good idea. We just have to be more cautious with it. I do not see a big problem with scaling within the same series/author.

 

[A6colute]

Complete rejection of powerscaling is not a good idea. We just have to be more cautious with it.

I agree. Every case needs a detailed investigation. Without that powerscaling is an evil.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, my big problem is with powerscaling between different authors. If a certain author portrays a character at a certain degree of power within a near time period, and has another character match it, powerscaling can work, but othervise it seems extremely unreliable, and will end up with Black Panther outmuscling the Silver Surfer, Hulk being taken down by a snake or Captain America, and likely thousands of similar instances.

The biggest problem with Marvel characters is probably the speed levels. For example, if I remember correctly, despite the handbook officially listing Magneto as a regular human in terms of physical speed, he is considered as swift as Quicksilver, and despite that Thor did not display anywhere near star-busting power when Magneto reflected his hammer throw, his force fields are listed as at least star level+.

 

[Antvasima]

At the very least, we should probably write a page regarding strong restrictions about how to use power scaling for Marvel and DC characters. One writer's canonicity should not be used to scale from another's.

 

[Antvasima]

We should also probably go over the Marvel and DC profiles, and clean up inaccurate statistics, both from wanton inaccurate use of powerscaling, and from inaccurate boosting, such as stating that standing inside of a star or withstanding an extremely dispersed supernova is somehow equivalent to withstanding the entirety of the force required to detonate a star.

According to Tom Brevoort, who is both in charge of the Marvel handbooks, and has stated this directly (when addressing that Thor is somewhat slower than Wolverine), the speed levels are especially bad for Marvel characters. We rate virtually all of them at extreme levels, even if they are officially only athletic or mildly superhuman.

 

[Antvasima]

I am also uncertain if withstanding black holes can even be counted as anything other than outliers (or the writers not understanding the full implications) for characters that regularly take damage from far less, given that overcoming a point-blank singularity should intuitively take a higher-dimensional level of power.

 

[DarkLK]

I am also uncertain if withstanding black holes can even be counted as anything other than outliers

Characters just have some time-space resistance and star/solar system durability.

 

[Antvasima]

So, is anybody more positive towards my compromise suggestion of continuing to use Marvel and DC powerscaling for single writers within a specific run on a book, but not using it between over a hundred different writers and decades with wildly differing power levels, hierarchies, and sensibilities?

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

wait how about this- we calculate how much matter a black hole of a given sie typially eats

lets say, some black hole consumes a planetary amount of matter over the period of time some character was near it, so does that gaurentee only a planet+ durability???


becuz, really and truely, black holes are just like whirlpools, we only fall in them because we are attached to space-time

otherwise, we wont be affected at all by black holes or anything else for that matter


in the end, i agree with antvasima

 

[DarkLK]

Nevertheless, some things remain the same for decades, so I think we still do not have to consider each series/author as a completely separate continuity. Although I generally ok with powerscaling restriction. But mostly it just means that we will be more subjective.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. Given that you tend to be very sensible and logical, would you be willing to help out with formulating powerscaling restriction regulations for Marvel and DC, that I could then place within an instruction page? Help and input from other administrators would be very appreciated as well of course.

 

[DarkLK]

Well, I'm not an expert in Marvel/DC. I still used to consider this as a single continuity.

I can only advise to collect some scans showing the obvious contradictions (like 4-D beyond realm, Spidey beat Firelord, some non-cosmic guy beat Galactus etc), and also create a list of characters which are completely unsuitable for scaling between different authors or even in general.

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. That could be a bit of a task. I am not good at finding scans. However, we are not in a hurry.

 

[DarkLK]

Well, scans are not necessarily. Text examples will suffice.