Marvel: 8-Cs' Invalid Calc

[LordTracer]

It's been long enough, I'll just post my proposals for the new 8-C tier shifts:

The Imp-ress/8-C shuffle

vsbattles.fandom.com

As you know, I think Cap tiers should be downscaling to 9-A+, but otherwise almost everything looks good. Except…

X-23: Probably the most polarizing take, X-23 is nowhere near Wolverine tier in physicals. She is almost always reliant on her claws to bridge gaps, and straight up has been ****** up massively by other 8-Cs. Not to mention she has very blatantlybeen stalemated by 9-As.

Definitely gonna have to disagree her. Now, She is weaker than Logan, Logan himself said as much, but she has feats that should put her on the At least 9-A, likely 8-C/9-A+ level, not 9-A.

• Blocks a punch from Vampire Jubilee. (X-23 Vol. 2 #11)
• Harms Daken with a tackle and takes physical blows from him. (X-23 Vol. 2 #8)

Wasp (Marvel Comics): Should be downgraded to 9-A off of harming Nightcrawler in her scan, note that she used her blasters on Wolverine

Uh… no, she’s definitely using her feet to take Logan out here, not her blasters.

But yeah, aside from this stuff, everything else seems fine to me.

 

[The_Impress]

Definitely gonna have to disagree her. Now, She is weaker than Logan, Logan himself said as much, but she has feats that should put her on the At least 9-A, likely 8-C/9-A+ level, not 9-A.

• Blocks a punch from Vampire Jubilee. (X-23 Vol. 2 #11)
• Harms Daken with a tackle and takes physical blows from him. (X-23 Vol. 2 #8)

Jubilee isn't trying to take her head off, and harming Daken WITH A TACKLE is honestly a single grunt, we're not using that.

Uh… no, she’s definitely using her feet to take Logan out here, not her blasters.

Prove she's relevantly harming him, because if she was she wouldn't need to blast him as well.

Wolverine doesn't even let out a grunt or a pained expression.

 

[LordTracer]

Jubilee isn't trying to take her head off, and harming Daken WITH A TACKLE is honestly a single grunt, we're not using that.

And…? Jubilee not trying to murder her doesn’t mean Laura can’t scale. Also you can see Daken spit up some blood when she tackles him (and y’know, she also tanks a kick from him with no problem).

Prove she's relevantly harming him, because if she was she wouldn't need to blast him as well.

She literally doesn’t blast him in that scan though? She blasts Storm and what looks like Xavier.

 

[The_Impress]

And…? Jubilee not trying to murder her doesn’t mean Laura can’t scale

It does mean she can't scale, why would I presume any margin whatsoever when Jubilee clearly isn't going any relevant strength there.

Also you can see Daken spit up some blood when she tackles him

Amazing observation, two drops of blood now means scaling, everyone.

and y’know, she also tanks a kick from him with no problem).

...did you forget the fact X-23 has a great regen rate and stamina?

She literally doesn’t blast him in that scan though? She blasts Storm and what looks like Xavier.

...Tracer recognise that's worse, we never even see Wolvie knocked out then. It's not even a feat to begin with.

 

[Antvasima]

Impress seems to make sense above, but there is no need to be rude. Tracer is just trying to help us out.

 

[The_Impress]

...I don't think I'm being rude here.

 

[Armorchompy]

i think you are a little

 

[Antvasima]

Amazing observation, two drops of blood now means scaling, everyone.

I was referring to this comment.

 

[The_Impress]

Eh, sorry for that

 

[Antvasima]

No problem. Just try to be more careful in the future.

 

[LordTracer]

It does mean she can't scale, why would I presume any margin whatsoever when Jubilee clearly isn't going any relevant strength there.

This is something you have to prove, Zark. Jubilee attacks Laura, and Laura blocks her punch. To be honest, Jubilee in that moment looks more serious than she did when she was fighting Logan. The burden of proof is on you to prove that she’s not trying or holding back or whatever.

Amazing observation, two drops of blood now means scaling, everyone.

Drawing blood = harming.
Harming someone = you scale to their durability.

This is like, basic wiki standards.

...did you forget the fact X-23 has a great regen rate and stamina?

She didn’t have to regen from his kick, so honestly, kinda irrelevant. She’s just tanking a kick, which is durability scaling for her.

...Tracer recognise that's worse, we never even see Wolvie knocked out then. It's not even a feat to begin with.

What in the world were you on about with him getting blasted then

I mean, Logan and Scott both said that Janet pretty much bodied them, so-

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Amazing observation, two drops of blood now means scaling, everyone.

Isn’t that the reason why we scale Ironman to Thanos in the MCU?

 

[LordTracer]

Isn’t that the reason why we scale Ironman to Thanos in the MCU?

Technically he scales because of one drop of blood, not two

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, if you can draw blood from someone you should scale to them. It's not rocket science.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Comics shouldn't really be compared to the MCU or other verses tbh, they should have way stricter standards of scaling or everyone scales to everybody, not just one or two occasions of doing minor damage to someone. But I don't know enough about X-23 and her consistent power level so I'll stay away form that debate.

Anyway

The "downscaling" people in Zark's sandbox would be 8-C right?

I agree with 9-A+ for the "down downscaling" people, Bucky's feat is close enough to that and it's been consistently shown that Cap is physically weaker than Wolverine but can hold his own in a brawl.

Personally I prefer basing ratings off actual showings more and Sabretooth can also get the "at least, possibly" rating like due to his inconsistency like Nuke but I'm fine with it either way because in this case it's also valid that he's supposedly at least the same as Wolverine.

On Nuke I think it's a bit harsh to say that Wolverine did nothing against him in the first scan, they were just kinda trading blows and Nuke got the upper hand. In the second scan you could say Wolverine kinda caught him off guard and rammed him repeatedly which is why he bled so bad, though admittedly it's difficult to excuse getting rekt like that. He is pretty clearly stronger than Captain America though, even in the fight Cap "won" he kinda ambushed him and spammed shield bashes and looked pretty hurt by a kick by Nuke while his non-shield hits didn't do much damage (if anything tanking shield throws from a Cap trying to kill him is a plus). With all that into consideration, I don't think he's as inconsistent as suggested and I think it's fair to just say he's 8-C rather than 9-A (I guess it's a good scaling feat for Wolverine too then).

It should also be noted that the characters that currently scale to Wolverine shouldn't necessarily be 8-C if they are kinda shown to be a bit weaker in their fights with Wolverine, since Captain America can also fight pretty well against Wolverine. Silver Samurai comes to mind as the wording on his page seems to suggest Wolverine > him, although I didn't look at the scans in detail.

Don't think there's any other physical feat by Kang, had a quick look at a respect thread and he did take a hit by Hulkling helmet down but that's an outlier I guess.

 

[The_Impress]

This is something you have to prove, Zark. Jubilee attacks Laura, and Laura blocks her punch. To be honest, Jubilee in that moment looks more serious than she did when she was fighting Logan. The burden of proof is on you to prove that she’s not trying or holding back or whatever.

...no, this is something you have to prove, since basic logic dictates, as this isn't even a fight and both are allies by the long run, Jubilee isn't going max strength to scold X-23, she isn't a psychopath. There is no logic ever to entail otherwise.

Her "looking more serious" is you actually straight up ignoring context for wanking. She's only looking that way since she's pissed off.

Drawing blood = harming.
Harming someone = you scale to their durability.

This is like, basic wiki standards.

Basic wiki standard also is, when the minor feat is being used to ignore extended feats and important statements, we ignore the minor feats as outliers.

She didn’t have to regen from his kick, so honestly, kinda irrelevant. She’s just tanking a kick, which is durability scaling for her.

Prove this.

I mean, Logan and Scott both said that Janet pretty much bodied them, so-

...can you recognise being bodied can also mean being blitzed, which is what Wasp did there?

 

[LordTracer]

...no, this is something you have to prove, since basic logic dictates, as this isn't even a fight and both are allies by the long run, Jubilee isn't going max strength to scold X-23, she isn't a psychopath. There is no logic ever to entail otherwise.

Her "looking more serious" is you actually straight up ignoring context for wanking. She's only looking that way since she's pissed off.

Basic logic and Occam’s Razor entails that an angry Jubilee is attempting to punch Laura, Laura blocks said punch, therefore Laura scales. You are making the claim that Jubilee isn’t trying enough for Laura to scale, and you need to prove that. Provide evidence from the comic that even implies that.

Ignoring you being rude, her being pissed and then proceeding to try to punch Laura kinda implies that she’s putting in some effort. Unless you would like to explain how she is somehow not trying/holding back/suppressed/whatever you want to claim despite being angry and, y’know, attempting to attack her.

Basic wiki standard also is, when the minor feat is being used to ignore extended feats and important statements, we ignore the minor feats as outliers.

And Laura harming Daken is doing neither of those things.

Prove this.

Daken’s kick is not shown to do any damage to her, either in the panel where he kicks her or the one immediately after. There is actually zero evidence to suggest she regenerated, if you can provide evidence from the comic that shows she did, please provide it.

As for Janet’s feat, I don’t really care enough to argue about it anymore.

 

[The_Impress]

Basic logic and Occam’s Razor entails that an angry Jubilee is attempting to punch Laura, Laura blocks said punch, therefore Laura scales.

...no it doesn't. If you want to be context-deaf, yes, but with context that isn't what logic dictates.

You are making the claim that Jubilee isn’t trying enough for Laura to scale, and you need to prove that. Provide evidence from the comic that even implies that.

What implies that Jubilee was attempting to grievously injure X-23 there?

Ignoring you being rude, her being pissed and then proceeding to try to punch Laura kinda implies that she’s putting in some effort. Unless you would like to explain how she is somehow not trying/holding back/suppressed/whatever you want to claim despite being angry and, y’know, attempting to attack her.

...Tracer not everyone gets murderous towards their friends when angry. Basic logic.

And Laura harming Daken is doing neither of those things.

Two drops of blood is doing neither of those things.

Daken’s kick is not shown to do any damage to her, either in the panel where he kicks her or the one immediately after. There is actually zero evidence to suggest she regenerated, if you can provide evidence from the comic that shows she did, please provide it.

Instead, please provide she didn't regenerate this one instance, when its her passive power.

As for Janet’s feat, I don’t really care enough to argue about it anymore.

Concession accepted.

 

[LordTracer]

What implies that Jubilee was attempting to grievously injure X-23 there?

Literally not what I said. I said that Jubilee is actually putting in effort, which is obvious, and Laura blocks her punch. Once again, you need to prove that Jubilee wasn’t trying.

...Tracer not everyone gets murderous towards their friends when angry. Basic logic.

I literally never said she was murderous, will you please stop putting words in my mouth?

Two drops of blood is doing neither of those things.

This is not an argument against what I said, Zark. Laura harmed Daken, that is a fact. Therefore, she should be able to downscale.

Instead, please provide she didn't regenerate this one instance, when its her passive power.

I reiterate: there is literally nothing in the page that shows she took any damage. There is nothing for her to regenerate from. If you think she regenerated, you need to prove that she did.

...no it doesn't. If you want to be context-deaf, yes, but with context that isn't what logic dictates.

You keep saying this, but you are not providing any evidence.

 

[The_Impress]

Literally not what I said. I said that Jubilee is actually putting in effort, which is obvious, and Laura blocks her punch. Once again, you need to prove that Jubilee wasn’t trying.

I can just prove by saying she wasn't being murderous or attempting grevious harm, simple as that, they don't scale.

If you're against this reasoning you're an year too late since we have used this reasoning multiple times in the past for tier 4 downgrades and even before that for tier distinction.

If the damn characters aren't even trying to harm each other majorly, they don't scale, especially off of one instance.

This is not an argument against what I said, Zark. Laura harmed Daken, that is a fact. Therefore, she should be able to downscale.

You repeating something over and over doesn't make it true, Tracer.

I reiterate: there is literally nothing in the page that shows she took any damage. There is nothing for her to regenerate from. If you think she regenerated, you need to prove that she did.

I don't have to prove a negative, considering it is a passive ability.

YOU have to prove she DIDN'T regenerate, YOU have to prove she didn't compensate with anything.

 

[LordTracer]

I can just prove by saying she wasn't being murderous or attempting grevious harm, simple as that, they don't scale.

You just saying something is not proof, first of all. Second of all, I asked you to provide evidence that Jubilee isn’t trying. I want scans, Zark, not you just saying things.

You repeating something over and over doesn't make it true, Tracer.

That’s literally what you did in your last reply, what- That’s also, again, not a counter to what I said.

I don't have to prove a negative, considering it is a passive ability.

YOU have to prove she DIDN'T regenerate, YOU have to prove she didn't compensate with anything.

I already have, multiple times, which you have consistently ignored, but fine.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/454788635682668546/908051644023963658/IMG_0756.jpgPanel 1, Daken kicks Laura. There is no visible damage on Laura’s body. There also no blood splatters, or any other indication that she’s taken external damage. Panel 2, once again, there is no damage on her body. Therefore, there is NOTHING implying that she had to regenerate from his kick. So once again, if you think she did, provide scans that prove she did. Otherwise, you are making a claim that is unsupported and not shown in the comic itself.

 

[The_Impress]

Tracer good Christ I am making basic logical assertions, the burden of proof is on you, and you just don't meet it.

 

[LordTracer]

I have provided evidence multiple times now, Zark, and you have not provided proper counters to what I’ve said. All you’ve done so far are make claims that are not supported by anything, nor are they backed up with any scans.

If you can’t provide evidence, your claims are baseless.

 

[The_Impress]

...my claims are rooted in basic logic, they're self-evident, you're supposed to provide evidence against them, and you're not meeting sufficient evidence.

 

[LordTracer]

...my claims are rooted in basic logic, they're self-evident, you're supposed to provide evidence against them, and you're not meeting sufficient evidence.

No, they really aren’t. You’re claiming Jubilee wasn’t trying against Laura, which is completely unsupported, and you’re claiming that Laura had to regen from Daken’s kick, which is just blatantly wrong, as I have gone over multiple times now. Both of your arguments have no backing.

Honestly, if all you’re going to do is make claims without proof and not provide any counters to what I’ve said, then you might as well just wait for the thoughts of everyone else in this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Everybody please try to calm down and be polite here. This is not that big a deal.

 

[The_Impress]

I'll discuss X-23's ratings on a later date, just gonna leave her 8-C for now.

Anyways rest of the things seem accepted, so is this good to apply!

 

[Antvasima]

Yes, this is probably fine now.

 

[The_Impress]

Good, I'll work on applying it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out so much. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[The_Impress]

I applied the revision across all the characters, with help from @Armorchompy.

I'll make a X-23 thread later, and thus this thread is closeable.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you both for helping out. I will close this thread then.