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Mario Speed Downgrade

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@Bluetrekking

Thank you but it doesn't seem to cover the any of the points you brought up, rather it became a discussion in determining the legitimacy of a void feat. I'm taking my break right now, so sorry if the response is rushed with grammer error. As far as the thread is concern, it should be a case by case scenario in determining the feat before giving the character a rating. From what I know and gathered, The Void and Chaos Heart is SPM definitely fits all the bill.

-It was made to destroy everything in concept, including time and space and just mere existence. Considering literally nothing existed in the aftermath of Sammer's Kingdom destroyed, it's not a mere assumption.

-The Pure Hearts were created in order to counter it by none other than The Tribes of The Ancients. The Tribe of Ancient can exist outside universes and they created Flipside as a "bridge" for people travel into other universes, specifically the universes with the Pure Hearts. They created Flopside along with The Tribe of Darkness to stabilize the world since "light can't exist without darkness."

It currently doesn't conflict with the thread or current speed page. However, if you truly believe that one must exists in the void to begin with to recieve the rating, I propose a revision thread. That way, we can determine wether and how changes can be made. Though, SD should be Immeasurable speed just in case there are other threads that addressed the points made.
 
@DRB

Perhaps you could create a highlighted staff thread for this?
 
@Ant

For what? It's not much of an issue since people are agreeing to it. My main issue is the concept of Infinite speed itself because I'm not recieving the information I need and people have pointed out others recieved the ratings for similar reasons. Instead, I would like an absolute revision on the Infinite speed itself. Because as far as I'm concern, it was never stated that one must existed in a place that lacked time to begin with on the thread or the speed page. Only if a person was able to freely move in it. It's a quick fix that I'm not objecting, I just need to know the official rules we laid out before determining how to scale his speed because as far as I'm concern, it doesn't conflcit with our current rules and I have yet to see a thread where it's stated existing in a realm without time to begin with is mandatory.
 
The removal of infinite speed rating seems legitimate, though I do share Ant's question, what will be the new speed ratings?

@Dino the rules are clear when it comes to infinite speed, I think this is more of an issue for these two verses not heeding them rather than needing an absolute revision.
 
To clarify, do you have to be a natural inhabitant of a void in order to have infinite speed from a void feat?

I was told this by multiple admins but now I am hearing something different.
 
@Blue

I'm just going by what the rules stated.

According to note 4 on the speed page: "Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

Nothing is stated about existing in it to begin with. The Tribe of the Ancients and Darkness can freely exist outside universes and they created the Pure Heart to counter the Chaos Heart. Count Bleck is a member of the latter and SD should be superior to him and logically can survive The Void. Again, I'm not against the downgrade because I see your point but I just want to make sure it's a rule we established because, again, I was not informed. Neither were the people who made the other pages. And I believe it wasn't discussed or revised properly as a result.
 
The real cal howard said:
Same ratings Mario has. Btw, that Sub-Rel speed is an unneeded low end.
Click to expand...
@The real cal It can still be useful, it just needs to be specified as Sub-Relativistic combat and reaction speed for Mario.

"I don't know if this thread is the place to talk about it, but considering it was touched on above, shouldn't Mario's MFTL+ rating just be reaction speed, or maybe combat speed as well? And the same could be said for his Sub-Relativistic feat. His highest movement speed we've had for him was Massively Hypersonic via Lakithunder."

@BatMario We don't know if there's enough evidence to consider a MFTL+ reaction speed rating being consistent with Mario's current Sub-Rel reaction speed rating he has now. Also, that's the highest movement speed he performed? I thought Mario moving on foot could of been around that speed at this point tbh.
 
@DRB

It has been quite a long time since I last participated in a discussion about the infinite speed definition, and I am very tired and busy, and have handled a massive amount of tasks since then, so I do not remember so well.
 
@Blue

It is much better if all discussions about changing regulation pages are kept as staff only.
 
@Blue

Alright. My break is almost over so, I have to take my leave. Please inform me about the CRT. I can't ensure an immediate reply but I will help as soon as I can.
 
A discussion about changing our rules or guidelines that is open for everybody will always turn completely chaotic and not lead anywhere, just waste a lot of time and confuse everybody involved.
 
Seems fine to me, I guess?
 
I thought the Infinite speed thing was dealt with by now, so until the staff reaches a conclusion about the Infinite speed requirements and it is not brought up again i will be against every Mario characters being MFTL+ normally [Because Mario used a MFTL+ launcher and does not scale to Bowser] and for Time Eater, Alf Layla, Darkspine/Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver being downgraded since Time Eater/Alf Layla and especially Super Sonic has an Infinite speed feat at the end of Generations, which are powerscaled to Shadow and Silver.
 
So you prefer if Dimentio and Paper Mario retain infinite speed ratings?
 
Okay.
 
Dark649 said:
I thought the Infinite speed thing was dealt with by now, so until the staff reaches a conclusion about the Infinite speed requirements and it is not brought up again i will be against every Mario characters being MFTL+ normally [Because Mario used a MFTL+ launcher and does not scale to Bowser] and for Time Eater, Alf Layla, Darkspine/Super Sonic, Shadow and Silver being downgraded since Time Eater/Alf Layla and especially Super Sonic has an Infinite speed feat at the end of Generations, which are powerscaled to Shadow and Silver.
Click to expand...
Just to let you know, Super Sonic's Infinite feat at the end of Generations isn't valid anymore, because appearently, you have to live for a long time in a void in order to be Infinite in speed.

Even Super Dimentio has an Infinite speed feat (and Dimentio appeared only in one game, and Super Dimentio is a different form anyway, which means that the feat isn't an outlier or an inconsistence), but the others didn't accept it because "Super Dimentio never lived for a long time in a void". Thus, if Dimentio's feat isn't valid, then Super Sonic's isn't too, because Super Sonic's feat at the end of Generations was a one-time feat, and Super Sonic didn't stay in that void/never lived in a void for a long time, so.
 
The Super Sonic feat i'm talking about is not him fighting and easily defeating Time Eater, but undoing its damage aka the White Void which was made from the merge of the stolen Space-Time from various universes done by Time Eater [Who can move and function after time is erased] one at time [This why it is Low 2-C] and restoring them to their eras, that also scales to Blaze, Shadow and Silver [The last two defeating Solaris of the past, future and Sonic the present]. The Eggwizard had also the Power of the Stars, which was sustaining Sonic and Blaze universes and their space-time, which can also merge. Anyway this is Mario thread, so it is better to stop derailing.
 
"Long time" or "most of their lives" in a void with no space-time is a complete & utter paradox.I'm strongly against downgrading the Paper verse.
 
Dark649 said:
The Super Sonic feat i'm talking about is not him fighting and easily defeating Time Eater, but undoing its damage aka the White Void which was made from the merge of the stolen Space-Time from various universes done by Time Eater [Who can move and function after time is erased] one at time [This why it is Low 2-C] and restoring them to their eras, that also scales to Blaze, Shadow and Silver [The last two defeating Solaris of the past, future and Sonic the present]. The Eggwizard had also the Power of the Stars, which was sustaining Sonic and Blaze universes and their space-time, which can also merge.
Anyway this is Mario thread, so it is better to stop derailing.
Click to expand...
But isn't the feat you mentioned hax? Like, Reality Warping, or things like that. I mean, after all, Super Dimentio's Infinite speed is still more valid than Super Sonic's.

Moving in a void after after destroying the multiverse and then recreating it seem more legit then Super Sonic's feat. Also, how is that even an Infinite speed (i am talking about the Egg Wizard right now).
 
I agree with removing Infinite Speed. Though I still don't like how forever it seems like we have no actual consistent standard regarding void feats. But regardless we should downgrade Paper Mario and put them as MFTL+, scaling to others that they're above.
 
@AD Nothing suggests that Dimentio would destroy an infinite number of universes and that's AP not speed.
 
The requirements for infinite speed in general are kind of a paradox,how can one spend a "long time" where time doesn't exist?
 
@AD People can understand the passage of time inside timeless places, or else there would be no story. It is a necessity that events are portrayed linearly.
 
I am fine with Ryukama's suggestion.
 
I believe everyone here is still missing the big issue in the room and that is the fact that there still isn't a proper way to determine the Infinite speed. Because so far, the only argument against Super Dimentio and his speed feat is the fact the user does not exist within the void or time-space to begin with, which was not notified in this speed page. Several characters in this wiki such as Time Eater (Sonic) and Death (Discworld) does not originate from it and yet they still receieve the rating for the same exact reasons that applies to SD and yet this is the only factor for downgrade. I'm perfectly fine for the downgrade if the reasons are established but the fact it's not nor revised makes the acceptance completely selective and used against certian characters of choice.

Reviewing the speed page and note, in order to to qualifiy for the speed, one must be able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, or to travel anywhere instantly. Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis. The Tribe of the Ancients and Darkness can freely exist outside universes. They created Flipside and Flopside, realms between universes, for beings below them to be able to travel between them and they created the Pure Heart to counter the Chaos Heart. Count Bleck is a member of the latter and SD should be superior to him and logically can survive The Void and can also recreate them. Speaking of which, The Void itself is omnipresent with nothingness and completely destroy time, space, and just anything that exists. We clearly see this with the aftermath of Sammer's Kingdom. All this clearly fits the bill and we just seem to ignore it over an unofficial rule we have yet to established. Not to mention this will affect other character within the same Speed tier.

Simply not holding a discussion for the Infinite Speed just because it will be confusing and tiring is pretty much too late and not a valid reason as everyone is already confused about the requirements. And simply accepting the downgrading without proper context just seems like taking the easy way out of a problem that will eventually build over time because we will eventually have to deal with this again due to the lack of a proper revision.
 
I'll be 100% real with y'all right now. Infinite Speed for existing outside of time, while it may make sense logically, isn't really something that fiction acknowledges. Just because something is able to exist in, live in, or be born into a timeless realm doesn't mean that said timelessness carries over to a realm with time.

The only characters that come to mind that are legit infinite speed without trying to reach logically are Zoom and Dormammu. I am sure there are others, but just because someone comes from the Dark Area (Digimon) or the Void (many fictions) doesn't mean that they can move at infinite speed. If other characters that have never shown any inkling of infinite speed can move with and comprehend said characters WITHOUT the character CISing his way into being seen or comprehensible, then that character should NOT be infinite speed if all other logic points to the lack of infinite speed.

Take the Spirit Beast. It tunneled through a universe and destroyed portions of it, leaving a void without time or space. Narratively, the Beast has a timer on when it will finish the tunnel and arrive in the real world. If the Beast left time to inhabit a timeless realm of its own creation, there should be no timer, however. It would be in the real world instantly. Similarly, the World Guardia is capable of interacting with and containing the Beast in the Spirit World, yet has never shown any hint of infinite speed.

If the character hasn't shown an indicator of being able to achieve infinite speed outside of a timeless realm, that character shouldn't have infinite speed, imo. This solves the "natural habitat" or "most of their lives" issue and cuts out some beings who really haven't displayed the ability to move at such absurd speeds.
 
@Assalt

The whole "infinite speed while only in a timeless realm" has been discussed and the community is heavily divided on the issue. I would suggest making a staff-only thread about the matter. I would but I was advised by Ant not to.

I agree with 90% of your points.
 
@Bluetrekking

I probably will if Ryukama or DRB don't beat me to it. I'm actually going to tackle "questionable omnipotence" today.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Wait, Questionable Omnipotence? What does that have to do with this thread.
Click to expand...
Nothing, but that's why I am probably not going to make a speed thread like Bluetrekking suggested.
 
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