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Mario Speed Downgrade

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@Ryu

Hey, I never said it had to be staff only. By all means I'd leave it open unless something goes... wrong... that isn't caused by staff.
 
@Staff

It seems like there is still a big problem with the infinite Speed statistic. DRB is bringing up a good point, how we should not sweep the issue under the rug but should deal with it as soon as possible. Ignoring it would just prolong the inevitable.
 
I still believe this thread is still relevant even if the requirements change. No matter if they get downgraded or not, the justification will need to be changed for sure.
 
I am leaning towards agreeing with Assaltwaffle about our infinite speed standards, but think that it is a very bad idea to mess with our standards for omnipotence.
 
@Blue

Just wait for the other thread to reaches it's conclusion. We will then use the newly revised info to conclude wether it applies to Super Dimentio or not.
 
@Blue

Yes....recently. Anyway, it was agree the originating from the void should only be used for support, not disqualifying the character from the rating or automatically making them infinite. See the revision here. This is the only factor held against the character. But with the case by case scenario, it pretty much fits all the requirements in being a timeless void. The Tribe of the Ancients and Darkness can freely exist outside universes. They created Flipside and Flopside, realms between universes, for beings below them to be able to travel between them and they created the Pure Heart to counter the Chaos Heart. Count Bleck is a member of the latter and SD should be superior to him and logically can survive The Void and can also recreate them. The Void itself is omnipresent with nothingness and completely destroy time, space, and just anything that exists. We clearly see this with the aftermath of Sammer's Kingdom. Thus, the speed is fitting and does not conflict with what's displayed.
 
Anyways, the justification should still be changed given its somewhat misleading. More staff input may be needed.

Is that all that's needed to be given infinite speed? If so, I know some characters that could qualify.
 
That would bring back Infinite Speed Alien X which was debeated, but if it prevents the Sonic ones from being downgraded then it should be ok.
 
@Blue

What's misleading? There's nothing confusing in the revision. It's simple: Originating from it only supports the argument, not automatically confirms it nor rejects it for not originating from it.

@Dark

But that's really has to do with Forge of Creation, which is widely considered not to be a void and it actually does have time......just out of sync.
 
It's misleading because it has none of the context that you mentioned. Any tier 2 that can destroy the space-time they are currently in can qualify for infinite speed using the current justification.
 
@Blue

It's not misleading at all. It's plain as day. Simply originating from the void or not, does not call for immediate upgrade or downgrades. Simple.
 
I'm still against Dimentio having infinite speed. We never see him destroy everything, and only assume the Void he creates would be both treated as timeless and allowing him full mobility. If Dimentio gets this speed rating, every potential universe-destroyer that doesn't commit suicide upon wiping the verse gets it, which shouldn't happen.
 
@DRB

Assumptions that Dimentio, after he destroys everything, would create a void treated as timeless and still having him retain the ability to survive and move.

Also that "void" is clearly not truly nothing. I mean there is a floor and they just walk in. Unless the void is backed by statements and consistent showings of being timeless (or other infinite speed feats to back it up) it shouldn't grant infinite speed.
 
@Assalt

That's because he was stopped in doing so. Not that he couldn't. Infact, even in his death, he's used the last of his power to ensure the destruction. All the worlds are clearly fading away in the first phase of the final boss. In addition, when Count Bleck was in possesion of the Chaos Heart, Sammer's Kingdom was destroyed and called World of Nothing. The only assumption is the objection itself that he could or doesn't destroy time or space.
 
@DRB

I never said that he couldn't and I don't appreciate the strawman. It doesn't matter that he can destroy the universe. Many MANY characters can, and the vast majority don't have infinite speed. The void has to be specifically mentioned to be timeless. Unless they can move in the timeless void and are consistent in showing this ability, they aren't given infinite.
 
@Assalt

If you don't like strawmans, I suggest you take your own advice because talking like I don't know destroying the universe doesn't make you infinite in speed is rather insulting, even more so to act like I'm blinding accepting it because of such with that argument. The void is specifically stated to destroy existence. Clearly time and space is accounted for due to the aftermath of Sammer's Kingdom being describe as a world of nothing and The Void destroying it in question is stated to be a black span of nothing. Nothing as in devoid of anything that ever existed including concepts of time. This isn't "Oh Super Dimentio can destroy the universe, he's infinite in speed!" This is a legit evidence of The Void and Chaos Heart in general having conceptual destroying properties.
 
@DRB

Of course time and space are accounted for, otherwise it wouldn't be a universe destruction. Just being described as "nothing" isn't enough either. The World of Void is supposed to be a void without time or space, but it exhibits zero properties of such a void so we ignore that.

Characters like The God King aren't Infinite Speed because they can bring the universe to an end or use an all-consuming void.

Also... conceptual destruction? I'm sorry but you're going to need some serious evidence to back that up that isn't a hyper-vague statement. As is this is absolutely a "Super Dimentio can destroy the universe so he's infinite in speed" argument.
 
@Assualt

Except it isn't a mere description. The very erasure of Sammer's Kingdom disorting and erasing to a white void. Even when flipping in 3D, there's no distance. And there's nothing assumptious about it. The Void destroys existence. It's the basic concept of a void. If the void doesn't cease time or space, it isn't a void. On top of this, The Void is omnipresent with no set distance. Even in Flipside and Flopside, realms outside the universes to serve as a gateway between them. I don't know if this applies to The God King but it doesn't seem to going by his profile.

Furthermore, I don't appreciate the condescending attitude claiming it to be such. It feels more like a "The Void can't destory time, so it isn't infinite in speed" arguement.
 
@DRB

I am not denying that the void will destroy time. I'm sure it will, but unless we get legit statements or feats that void functions in a timeless manner we can't hand it out. Once again, just being capable of destroying space-time isn't enough.

Destroying a universe to the point of space-time destruction is synonymous with destroying time for the purposes of this discussion.

Edit: Also it would apply to the God King, since his Void will completely obliterate universal space-time continuums and his adversary, The Divine, is capable of achieving this as well. But this applies to all Low 2-Cs and above.
 
Again, if it doesn't destroy time, then it's not a void. Referring to my earlier comment, The Void is going to erase existence. The concept of existence erasure involves the cessation of time, space, and concept as we reviewed. When you destroy time within a universe, simply put. There is no time. The Void has no distance and is omnipresent, even outside universes. You don't need an official statement for this. Like we said, it's a case by case analogy. Take Xemnas. He can create a realm called World of Nothing, however there's structures, a black-hole in the final battle, space, rain, and so forth. It's more of a pocket realm. Not in the case with Sammer's Kingdom, where literally nothing was left after it's destruction. The only way that should debunk it all together if it didn't act like a void at all, such as space or time existing.
 
@DRB

You don't need to keep linking existence erasure; I am well aware of the profile (even though in said profile it mentions EE doesn't immediately entail total space-time erasure and can be limited but that's beside the point). I 100% get that the void will destroy time. That is absolutely not an issue for me, nor was it ever. Unless this void exhibits timelessness, however, and is consistent in doing so, it is too much of a jump to go to infinite speed.

We are more strict about infinite speed even when it gets a mention of timelessness, and this void has no timeless statement and rides exclusively on the logical inference that destroying a universe creates timelessness. This inference, as I have stated before, applies to every single character that can erase universal space-times. It doesn't matter if it kinda looks like a void, unless it have the evidence to back up timelessness, we shouldn't give infinite speed.
 
I'm fully aware of that, I don't mindlessly suggest these ratings. However, it doesn't "kinda" looks like the void. It's a definite void via properties. Keep in mind The Void is also present within Flipside and Flopside realms outside unverses.If I recall, that's Existing in non-existence .
 
@DRB

Properties of stated and shown timelessness? Because if it doesn't have that nothing else gives it a justification for infinite speed. I don't see how your last statement matters unless I am missing something.
 
@DRB

My apologies, but I agree with Assaltwaffle regarding that it sets a bad precedent to automatically allow infinite speed for any Low 2-C characters and above.

@Assaltwaffle

Do you think that the current Speed page explanation is acceptable, or that it needs to be further clarified?

"Note 4:

Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not a huge Outlier or Plot-Induced Stupidity or Inconsistency. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Originating from a void can be used to support the rating. However, this does not automatically make a character infinite in speed. In addition, lacking such an origin is not a justification to disqualify a character from the rating. Official statements can also be applied as long the description is clear or clarified."
 
@Ant

I think our current description is perfectly fine. This Dimentio feat lacks anything proving it isn't inconsistent and, more importantly, the evidence that it operates as timeless beyond "time was destroyed." Basically all T2s can destroy space-time, and they don't have this rating. Zen'O destroyed everything and created a void but it wasn't stated to act timelessly, nor did it exhibit any qualities of being timeless, nor would it be at all consistent.

Accepting this feat, as stated before, sets a terrible precedent for many characters.
 
@Ant

Except, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not just blindly claiming the void is legitatmate just because. Again, it's a case by case basis. I'm getting tired of these accusations. The Tribe of the Ancients and Darkness can freely exist outside and travel universes. They created Flipside and Flopside, realms between universes, for beings below them to be able to travel between them and they created the Pure Heart to counter the Chaos Heart. Count Bleck is a member of the latter and SD should be superior to him and logically can survive The Void and can also recreate them. The Void itself is omnipresent with nothingness and completely destroy time, space, and just anything that exists being the hole of the very fabric of space. When everything is destroyed, he will create them in his own image. Should this be impossible, he wouldn't have such an ability. I don't see the inconsistent claim going on around here. Especially with The World of Nothing being literally composed of nothing.
 
@DRB

Not a single one of those areas has been stated to be truly timeless, nor do any of them behave as timeless. Pardon me, and I mean no disrespect, but these aren't "accusations," these are flaws in your reasoning that we are pointing out and you seem to refuse to acknowledge. Destroying space-time isn't enough. Existing outside of a universe, unless said area is directly stated or shown to be beyond time itself, is not enough. Being a void, unless said void is directly stated or shown to be beyond time itself, is not enough.
 
All voids consist of nothing, but I do not think that we can automatically count them as timeless without being explicitly clarified as such.
 
Perhaps this needs to be better clarified in note 4?
 
Perhaps so. Maybe say that they need to be clarified as timeless, not just a void.
 
Yes. Do you have a suggestion for a rewrite?
 
@Assalt

You know, it's still insulting even when one say it is and that logic makes no sense. How can someone completely composed of nothing NOT be timeless? It's a conflciting argument. And The Void exists is omnipresent across different planes, from normal dimensions to beyond it via Flipside and Flopside.

The Void is Omnipresent accross the multiverse as well. Isn't Omnipresence some form of speed?
 
"Characters who showcase the ability to move freely and naturally in a timeless void may qualify for an infinite speed rating so long as it is not an Outlier, case of Plot-Induced Stupidity, or Inconsistency. Furthermore, the void should be clarified as timeless by statements or showings, and should consistently operate, or be described to operate, in such a fashion. Such feats will have to be very carefully evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

Originating from a void can be used to support the rating. However, this does not automatically make a character infinite in speed. In addition, lacking such an origin is not a justification to disqualify a character from the rating. Official statements can also be applied as long the description is clear or clarified."
 
@DRB

I'm sorry if it is insulting nor do I mean to insult you personally, but this isn't how we just agreed to handle this sort of thing.

If you want to go by pure logic here, absolutely no one gets infinite speed, since a being composed of matter distributed across spatial axes can never go beyond said spatial axes. Existing in a "void" is completely illogical and counter-intuitive, as if it is able to interact with or house anything, it isn't a true void.

The fact of the matter is fiction makes no sense. Even though the logical conclusion would be that anyone who can destroy a universe would be beyond time, and any void would be timeless, that isn't how fiction depicts universal destruction or voids 90% of the time. Without substantial evidence for the void's timelessness, there is just as much logical reasoning to claim the impossibility, and thus invalidity, of their actions as there are to support an infinite or immeasurable speed rating.
 
Still not the best way to disagree. Hostility only makes arguments worst. If I have to be honest, the rating itself makes even less sense than the fictions utilizing it. It's too conflicting. How something that's literally nothing not be timeless? Nothing is basically non-existence. It's even deviod on concept. And why apply this? Wouldn't it make sense to drop it altogether? Honestly, I sometimes wonder why we even bother with controversy because we ocassionally contradict ourseleves. Two wrongs doesn't make a right, yet Erazor Djinn and Death from Discworld are giving the rating for vague reasons. I knew why just dug a deep hole from this. Well, I have work tomorrow so I'll continue when I get back. Considering the The Void is omnipresent accross universes, at least give it the void itself the rating.
 
@DRB

I did not mean to be hostile. Having some bite to an argument isn't an insult to you as a person.

As for getting rid of void feats you're preaching to the choir on this one.
 
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