Mario AP Downgrade

[Eden_Warlock99]

That's a pretty weak assumption when to get stronger he needs to adventure or whatever, and he usually doesn't do that off-screen. Mario ain't a shonen.

Paper Luigi did go on off-screen adventures, so it ain't that far-fetched

 

[Armorchompy]

Paper Luigi did go on off-screen adventures, so it ain't that far-fetched

I was thinking Bowser and Peach, sorry, should have specified. But I find the idea of everyone growing massively to be a really weak excuse to patch up inconsistencies when people like Petey Piranha or the Koopalings show up every other game and put up a fight more or less.

 

[Kirbonic_Pikmin]

I should say this as an overall thing for my agreement

I heavily dislike using just one or two feats in a ballpark to scale a character unless there's just a complete absence of feats, considering there are 2 valid Tier 4 feats and 1 valid tier 3 feat, we run into that personal problem of mine.

Using Warcraft as my example, Tier 7 is the most consistent Tier, so I throw the general cast into the highest feat I got for that that scales generally, I'm not scaling everyone to, say, 6-C from a weakened Ragnaros. That's one Tier 6 feat compared to the literal dozens of Tier 7 feats, so I don't scale like that.

Using the Mario Bros verse page, there's 4 calced feats between tiers 5-3, so like, why would I use those over, say, Tier 7 or 6?

I think it can depend on context. If the verse is consistently tier 7 but has a couple tier 5 or 4 feats that aren’t really contradictory/seen as outliers, and the characters don’t struggle to perform tier 7 feats or have a massive amount of outliers, then the tier 7 feats would just be support for the characters being able to perform higher levels of power.

 

[Lou_change]

Lou, please stop man, this ain't the thread for 3-C goombs

Frankly I don’t care what tier they are I just know them currently being a billion times weaker than the main cast like they are now is provably wrong.
Also given a portion the argument here is reliant on minions not scaling if that can be proven false that means this thread’s argument is flawed

 

[Armorchompy]

Frankly I don’t care what tier they are I just know them currently being a billion times weaker than the main cast like they are now is provably wrong.
Also given a portion the argument here is reliant on minions not scaling if that can be proven false that means this thread’s argument is flawed

Dude, this got rejected in different threads, I don't wanna escalate things but I'll just delete any posts on the topic moving on. It ain't accepted and it's not gonna get accepted here for sure.

 

[Agnaa]

I look away for five seconds. Alright, let me just look at these anti-feats real quick one-by-one.

Mario Party:
Ultimately the Mario cast still survives all this, and the main reason they get hurt is either Game Mechanics so that the minigame can happen or for the sake of comedy. Mario Party is an event that the entire cast agrees to do and is completely fine with, it would make no sense if they were actually in any mortal danger or constantly were receiving immense amounts of pain; not to mention in the various story modes characters rarely seem to be hurt after a minigame even if it's somehow painful. As for the examples given...

I see, so characters making pain sounds, losing HP, etc. doesn't count as scaling when it's an anti-feat (SM64 Bowser), but it does when they're bosses amped by power stars getting punched (Bouldergeist).

And the characters are going easy on each other during these non-serious games when it's an anti-feat, but not when they're scaling to MFTL+ speeds.

Essentially, even with these anti-feats being minor, I still think they're existent and contradict the current tiers.

I'm going to downgrade so many verses if this thread passes

As long as you're only doing things which improve the wiki's accuracy, I'll be happy :3

If you really wanna take it out on staff members like me, you can help finish these blogs aiming to downgrade a verse only I care about from tier 7 to tier 9, and to nix creation scaling in it.

 

[Prime2024]

Anyway why would Mario be tier 6 if most of his anti feats are around tier 9 to 7 ?

 

[Armorchompy]

I explained that like four times. It's a bit frustrating.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I'm going to downgrade so many verses if this thread passes

By making this known, you’ve severely reduced your credibility immediately because now we know this is entirely out of spite from Mario downgrades

At the end of the day, it’s not this serious. Take a moment and calm down

 

[CloverDragon03]

I myself have a question though: Aren’t the anti-feats involving lava more of a temperature thing than a durability thing? Like I’m not trying to say “3-C lava tho,” more so “do the lava shenanigans even qualify for AP/durability?”

To my knowledge, high stats but garbo heat resistance can be a thing

 

[Agnaa]

I myself have a question though: Aren’t the anti-feats involving lava more of a temperature thing than a durability thing? Like I’m not trying to say “3-C lava tho,” more so “do the lava shenanigans even qualify for AP/durability?”

To my knowledge, high stats but garbo heat resistance can be a thing

While there were discussions about separating temperature and force durability/strength (which I agree with), those haven't really progressed meaningfully.

Mostly under the argument that all force attacks end up having a heat component within a few orders of magnitude, such that it doesn't make sense to rate characters at stuff like "6-C to force, 9-A to heat", even if that's where their feats land if we ignore that correspondence.

I do support that separation, but don't think it should be used just in this thread to keep Mario's tiers high.

 

[Prime2024]

I explained that like four times. It's a bit frustrating.

Anyway I read the blog and tier 9 or low tier 8 seems to be far more consistent, there are only very few tier 7 feats, some of them come from Mario being thrown to the moon and Luigi falling from space and while feats like this can reach tier 7 due to KE except the damage to the environment doesn't seems to be anywhere near tier 7 like at all....for starters Mario Moon feat seems to contradict the KE page since we can clearly see that the moon received almost no damage from the fall (see 7:23)


And Luigi falling from space barely did any damage to the ground as well....so I doubt those feats can even be considered tier 8 much less tier 7

 

[The_Smashor]

Are you serious? A 3-C character trying to destroy a 9-A boulder and failing isn't an anti-feat? That's insane, I'm just gonna ignore this type of argument LMAO

This is the same exact argument as "Kratos can't break a wooden door".

This is literally how you beat him, yes it is an anti-feat lmao.

Have you considered the possibility that they're just bombs that are capable of damaging Bowser? Like, if we can get Multi-Continental guns in Final Fantasy 7, this isn't anything resembling unreasonable.

Lava can vary in temperature as I mentioned in the OP. Curious how you missed that.

So why can't we just say this lava is hot enough to damage Bowser and normal lava isn't? Heat is already considered quasi-Durability Negation anyways.

Little more than stunned is still an anti-feat!

Alright, then he wasn't even stunned. He was literally just on his back and couldn't get up. You know, Like a turtle. There is zero visual evidence of him actually being damaged, and he's not knocked out or anything like that.

What? No that's not a "law", you just made that up LMAO.

Not a law, but an EXTREMELY common trope. For example: Majin Buu's body was damaged by bullets, DIO's leg was cut off by a shard of glass, Alucard (Hellsing) is hurt by bullets, Bill Cipher was hurt by a T-Rex's bite, etc...

A similar thing happens when characters duplicate themselves.

Could be he got knocked out or just got the air knocked out of him. There's precedent for the former.

Maybe, but at the same time because this is entirely offscreen and in terms of "Bowser is knocked out" vs "Bowser is completely unharmed and just on his back" we're 1:1 here with onscreen showings. In fact, there's no reason to assume the magic that makes Bowser big revives him or anything like that, so actually there's MORE proof he isn't knocked out than the opposite.

One of his castles modified by Fawful. The castles in SMW are as far as we can tell very normal castles. It doesn't make sense for them to be Giant Bowser level anyways given Giant Bowser >> Mario and Mario destroys the World castles in a few hits.

It also dosn't make any logical sense for the castles to be significantly less durable than the people the castle is there to protect, nor does it make sense for the castle walls to be significantly less durable than the person who is attacking the castle. Otherwise, why even build a castle? Also, aren't the SMW castle destruction cutscenes usually written off as gags?

I just want to stress how fucking insane it is to say that a 3-C character cannot destroy a rock formation. Just like, think about it for a second and realize how deeply stupid that is.

Significantly less stupid when the moon rocks are very clearly supernatural in some regard. Real rocks don't turn gold when you step on them. Also, I'd appriciate it if you cut back on the insults, I have not insulted you in this discussion and I'd like to be repaid in kind.

Powerful enough electricity will absolutely melt metal.

Eh? Maybe, but at the same time the beam was only hitting the metal for a short time, and usually a single lightning strike won't melt more durable metals (Though it can melt less durable metals like copper). And that's a matter of heat, not raw power, which as established are different things.

See point 8 on the blog. Bowser throws plenty of shit in Mario's way that doesn't scale to him, like y'know, Goombas.

Goombas are shown able to damage the Koopalings occasionally, can be used as a weapon against the likes of Dark Bowser, are able to play Baseball alongside the main cast as valueable team members... put some respect on their names, man, sure they're stated to be pathetic but "pathetic" is relative. Even as we have their profiles now, Goombas would beat any unarmed IRL human in a fight.

More durable than normal rock? Sure. 3-C rock? Insane.

Mario's world is one of fantasy that honestly dosn't try very hard to be in any way similar to the real world. Random galaxy level rocks honestly wouldn't even be the weirdest thing to happen in this series.

What? No that's just complete headcanon. Your debunks are literally just saying "this doesn't count" and then making up a reason. He's clearly screaming in pain.

How is my interpretation any more of a headcanon than yours? We're interpreting the vocalizations of a turtle.

They're just... falling here. They're not attacking or adding any special kind of energy, they're just dropping. Yes an anti-feat, thank you.

No, not an anti-feat. One of the strongest ways a Papercraft can attack is by jumping into the air and falling on people, and this is done from well over five times the height.

 

[The_Smashor]

I'm going to downgrade so many verses if this thread passes

And frankly, I completely understand this take.

The downgrades in this thread are blatantly holding Mario to a different standard to how over 90% of the wiki is held, regardless of what the Wiki's standards officially are. If every verse was held to this same standard, Planet level basically wouldn't exist.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And frankly, I completely understand this take.

The downgrades in this thread are blatantly holding Mario to a different standard to how over 90% of the wiki is held, regardless of what the Wiki's standards officially are. If every verse was held to this same standard, Planet level basically wouldn't exist.

It's mostly relegated to game verses

 

[JJSliderman]

Super Sonic got one-shot by crushing rocks and electricity oh no!!!

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That's more like Star Mario dying to falls, that's not used in the anti-feats, right?

 

[JJSliderman]

Yes some of the anti-feats here are literally “character takes fall damage”, like Bowser

 

[Dust_Collector]

Listen guys you wanna downgrade other verses that's fine but this just isn't productive in the slightest, take this discussion on how legit the stats for other game characters somewhere else

 

[Agnaa]

Hah! You think showing 50 anti-feats should get this character downgraded from a tier with three feats?

That's exactly the same as Kratos, a character who has author-statements saying that his inability to perform weak feats in games is non-canon.

That's exactly the same as this character with six anti-feats compared to the fifteen feats supporting their current tier.

Whataboutisms only work if the other examples are actually comparable.

 

[Prime2024]

Super Sonic got one-shot by crushing rocks and electricity oh no!!!

Nah never happened

 

[The_Smashor]

Whataboutisms only work if the other examples are actually comparable.

This is the exact same as Superman not being able to break a planet, then.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Whataboutisms only work if the other examples are actually comparable.

I'm sure Kirby's case is more like that his consistent feats are in the Tier 5 range instead of Tier 8-7 range
Both are far below Tier 2 (For Kirby) and Tier 3 (For Mario)

 

[Maizesoup]

This is the same exact argument as "Kratos can't break a wooden door".

Just call it an outlier instead of an AP =/= DC scenario. The point of AP =/= DC is so you don't get your Planet level license instantly revoked as soon as you damage another planetary character without destroying Earth, not a free pass for 3-C characters having a hard time breaking boulders or wooden doors.

Have you considered the possibility that they're just bombs that are capable of damaging Bowser? Like, if we can get Multi-Continental guns in Final Fantasy 7, this isn't anything resembling unreasonable.

Guns from FF7 are explicitly different from IRL guns and have in-universe evidence supporting them being this powerful.

 

[Blunt_Claw]

This is the exact same as Superman not being able to break a planet, then.

Stop the cap

 

[Agnaa]

This is the exact same as Superman not being able to break a planet, then.

Is that really an issue when he varies from 7-B, only reaching 5-A at his peak?

I'm sure Kirby's case is more like that his consistent feats are in the Tier 5 range instead of Tier 8-7 range
Both are far below Tier 2 (For Kirby) and Tier 3 (For Mario)

I was more responding to the Super Sonic stuff.

And ****, we've already gone through 5 attempted comparisons now, do we need to keep going through more? Eventually you're gonna hit something that no-one here knows enough about to justify, but that doesn't mean that those tiers are actually unsupported.

 

[The_Smashor]

Is that really an issue when he varies from 7-B, only reaching 5-A at his peak?

Post-Eradicator Superman has failed to destroy planets.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

So can mario have separate keys as a compromise?

 

[Agnaa]

Post-Eradicator Superman has failed to destroy planets.

Welp, go grab a dozen scans of that, and make a downgrade thread.

 

[The_Smashor]

So can mario have separate keys as a compromise?

There aren't really any keys to explain this.

 

[Deagonx]

What is happening here? Why are we bringing other verses into the mix?

The argument for keeping the tier can't stand on it's own merits, so it needs to be justified by pointing out other bad tiers on profiles from different verses. Of course, no other verses matter here at all, so that approach is just a waste of time.

 

[Cropfist]

The downgrades in this thread are blatantly holding Mario to a different standard to how over 90% of the wiki is held

Mario is held to different standards with a head-canon varies tier and scaling to power-ups of enemies he struggles with in base form.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

How many more verses do we have to drag into this before y’all realize whataboutisms aren’t the play here?

 

[The_Smashor]

What is happening here? Why are we bringing other verses into the mix?

Mainly because this revision clearly holds Mario to different standards from other verses. Sure, current Mario isn't great, but this isn't better.

Like, these are VSBW's outlier standards:

An Outlier is an event or incident that is considered to be completely and irreconcilably inconsistent with a character, entity, group, or series' normal displayed level of power. Outliers are often regarded as unusable in forums debates. However, efforts should be made to try to reconcile outliers with other canon information, and only very extreme examples should be classed as completely unusable. There are often disagreement regarding exactly what constitutes an outlier, and things that are considered as outliers by some might not be considered as such by everyone. Careful judgement should be used in all cases.

There are no hard standards for outliers and consistency. This isn't bringing Mario up to standard, this is just someone with different standards from the last guy walking up and tossing in their five cents.

 

[StretchSebe]

Text dump:

This is the same exact argument as "Kratos can't break a wooden door".

I was going to wait until all the anti-feats were addressed in their entirety, but I think this is a good time to say it.

I've seen in the use of anti-feats an open disregard for the actual context surrounding the reason said 'anti-feat' is a thing. For many verses. Things that can be explained if you either experienced the media for yourself, or simply looked to before and after those instances in said media for the context that could explain why some thing is happening, or had happened in the way it did.

I've seen GoW in particular get this treatment in threads, with these hyper specific examples being used as 'anti-feats.' Which is really strange given the fact that Kratos is undeniably shown to be consistently strong throughout the games, and even stronger once you factor in lore. Yet for some reason, we should disregard his actual feats and lore because... he doesn't break a wooden door?

Which is kind of the problem beyond anti-feast often excluding or disregarding context: Anti-feats aren't used for tiering or scaling. They just aren't: Not even on this wiki. Every fiction is going to have some detail(s) you could technically use to scrutinize any one of it's character (in more ways than just strength), but every fiction has context for its plot points. Even in fictions where things occur (or can occur) non-causally, context is respected. 'Anti-feats' aren't legitimate reflections of the characters, being so specific, and isolated from context. For example: Comics. Nobody seriously tiers Darkseid based on that one time he fell down stairs. The wiki uses what he's actually capable of, what he does, and his lore status as a New God. His context. So do other battleboard wiki's. Specific instances of Darkseid, or any character just not being where they are in terms of strength most of the time - anti-feats - don't really tell us anything about the characters, fictions, or and especially how to go about scaling/tiering them.

And frankly, I completely understand this take.

The downgrades in this thread are blatantly holding Mario to a different standard to how over 90% of the wiki is held, regardless of what the Wiki's standards officially are. If every verse was held to this same standard, Planet level basically wouldn't exist.

I know they were joking about downgrading other verses, but honestly; I've seen anti-feats come up for downgrades far too often.

For the reasons I explained, they never seem to be used or brought up to actually bring about more accurate tiering and scaling for characters or fictions, but only ever to downplay them. There isn't another reason to consider these almost always out-of-context instances for tiering/scaling, and again, not even this wiki considers them.

If there is information, a feat, or evidence that one can find is not as impressive as it was originally thought, that's fine. That actually gets us closer to an accurate tiering for a character; re-confirming information, recalculating with more accurate method or measure, and re-establishing actual evidence provided. But anti-feats don't serve any purpose other than to detract.

 

[Dust_Collector]

again, all well and good to bring up how other verses should be scrutinized to the same degree as Mario is in this thread if these downgrades go through, but take that ANYWHERE ELSE

"Oh but Superman once failed to destroy a plan-" DC general discussion thread, go there.

"Oh but kirby has more tier 5 feats than tie-" Kirby discussion thread, go there.

"Oh but Link is multi-contintal but threatened of being killed by a collapsing castl-" Zelda general discussion, go there.

This is a Mario thread, not a Mario "and 10 other verses" thread. If you wanna argue against these downgrades use arguments solely from Mario games.

 

[Deagonx]

Insane take, frankly. We have outlier rules for a reason, and anti-feats are crucial to determining when a feat is an outlier. The road to "accurate tiering and scaling" does not mean taking the most outrageous interpretation of a small handful of alleged feats, and then dictating that everything in the verse basically scales to that. You got someone in here arguing for 3-C Goombas. Armor is not the one detracting, Armor is the one trying to bring about more accurate tiering and scaling for these characters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Having read the opening post, I 100% agree. Count my vote.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Or maybe y'all are being super ignorant and dismissing everything without much consideration at all.

Treating a verse by the merit of it's "anti feats" (most of these being super bad mind you), is a horrible precedent for the future of this wiki and shouldn't be the go-to at all.

What makes Tier 7 any better? I can scrutinize all of them as well. Bye bye Cannon is actually just not a feat since it works even in buildings so they aren't going around the world at all. How does the cast scale to city casually when OP has so many examples of them being harmed and almost killed by things lesser than that? How far are we willing to go? Why is tier 7 the stopping point?

 

[JJSliderman]

Fine.
Then I at least propose something like “X tier in base, 3-C with power and grand stars” for the notable franchise mainstays, as those feats weren’t really debunked.