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maou gakuin no futekigousha Upgrade from 2-A to low 1-C

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Sergeant_Hypocrite said:
I reckon that the sanctuaries do not warrant a higher dimension. A microcosm is described as: "a thing, a place or a group that has all the features and qualities of something much larger" (Oxford Dictionary). Describing the sanctuaries as microcosms don't make the bubble worlds higher in dimensionality, but treats the sanctuaries as smaller parts in size, not dimensionality, of their overall being.
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No one claimed sanctuaries is higher dimensional
Sergeant_Hypocrite said:
The second point I want to make regarding the Silver Sea is the nature of how its time works in the context of the bubble worlds and layers. From how it's being described, it sounds like the differing worlds, layers and Silver Sea operate on the same form of time, just at differing speeds. This sounds less like a higher-dimensional form of time and more like time dilation, which is the slowing of time in accordance with the observations of one compared to another. This is reinforced by the quotes mentioned by the OP:
Click to expand...
Doesn't debunk the what OP claimed. Or the thread where @Orioreeem linked unless you are so sure 3 staffs who agreed on that thread are wrong.
Sergeant_Hypocrite said:
The discrepancy between the Silver Sea and the smaller worlds makes sense because they all abide by the concept of time via time dilation, as it makes it clear that each reality (bubble worlds, layers and the Silver Sea) exists within the dimensionality of each other, which would make them all 2-A, and thus 4-D. It even mentions that time in the Silver Sea is "stopping", not abiding by its own separate laws of time and dimensionality, but acting in accordance with time present in the bubble worlds. As a result, the Silver Sea, while having its own separate timeline, does not inherently have a higher-dimensional nature than the layers. If anything it would make the layers microcosms of the Silver Sea itself. They may be separate from one another, but they are not independent of one another.
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What you are claiming is Headcanon. Nothing states they are in same plane. You literally made it up.
 
Sergeant_Hypocrite said:
I reckon that the sanctuaries do not warrant a higher dimension. A microcosm is described as: "a thing, a place or a group that has all the features and qualities of something much larger" (Oxford Dictionary). Describing the sanctuaries as microcosms don't make the bubble worlds higher in dimensionality, but treats the sanctuaries as smaller parts in size, not dimensionality, of their overall being.
Click to expand...
in this case it does, there is no such thing bigger than 2-A and effectively smaller than Low 1-C, assuming gch there is no cardinal between Aleph-0 and Aleph-1. Additionally there is no such set X such that X > Y when there is a bijection between the two.
 
Pain_to12 said:
1. I don't care about chaos verse enough and if you feel they don't deserve it make a CRT
2. Two wrongs don't make a right
3. If the 2-A is valid then low 1-C is fine (5D)
4. I should probably make the crystal downgrade thread earlier than I should.
Click to expand...
two wrongs don't make a right, Pain why you did not comment there and disagreed with it?
Or your quote goes like this "two wrongs don't make a right but other can get bypass and this one personally won't let it slide".
 
Dread said:
two wrongs don't make a right, Pain why you did not comment there and disagreed with it?
Or your quote goes like this "two wrongs don't make a right but other can get bypass and this one personally won't let it slide".
Click to expand...
I don't care and I did not read the thread so why tf will I disagree?
 
Dread said:
Double standards. I see. Thanks love
Click to expand...
No it is not double standards, I just read the thread and it is nothing like this one.
There were statement of higher dimension with ontological differences. And also a direct mention of "Different temporal dimension"
Where tf is the comparison coming from?
The only thing you got was time moved slower in one dimension and time stop in one did not affect another.
That is not a different temporal dimension, So yes I will agree with that thread and still disagree with this.
There is no double standard anywhere
Pain_to12 said:
As first time moving faster or slower in one aspect is not proof of another temporal dimensions, there are places in this universe where time is faster or slower that does not mean we have different temporal dimensions.
Also time stop not affecting another part means range problem.

To explain further another temporal dimension will be time moving in a different direction. So if time is moving forward the other time would be moving backwards.
Let's say you left the actual dimension where time moves forward and then decides to move to the other dimension where time moves backwards, and you are 20 years old, after 10 years in that dimensions you would have regressed back to a 10 years old.
Click to expand...
 
Pain_to12 said:
No it is not double standards, I just read the thread and it is nothing like this one.
There were statement of higher dimension with ontological differences. And also a direct mention of "Different temporal dimension"
Where tf is the comparison coming from?
The only thing you got was time moved slower in one dimension and time stop in one did not affect another.
That is not a different temporal dimension, So yes I will agree with that thread and still disagree with this.
There is no double standard anywhere
Click to expand...
tbh no, I will add one more proof and add more context. Just wait for me.
 
GreatIskandar14045 said:
I was asked to give my input here, by a friend, even though I'm not really into vs debating no more. That's not too long then, do your best.
Click to expand...
But how is it fair to give input after OP is changing it, does he see the future tho?
Or it is like “I will give my input anyway, even if he added new stuff there”.
 
I'm confused as to how this is low 1-C, what's stopping this logic from just being extended to every layer to get 1-B? I could be misinterpreting the argument, I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but I don't see how low 1-C can be accepted and not accept the SS as 1-B
 
Hasty12345 said:
I'm confused as to how this is low 1-C, what's stopping this logic from just being extended to every layer to get 1-B? I could be misinterpreting the argument, I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but I don't see how low 1-C can be accepted and not accept the SS as 1-B
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Tbh it is 1B, but people won't like Anos being that high. Don't blame me
 
Hasty12345 said:
I'm confused as to how this is low 1-C, what's stopping this logic from just being extended to every layer to get 1-B? I could be misinterpreting the argument, I'm not knowledgeable on the verse, but I don't see how low 1-C can be accepted and not accept the SS as 1-B
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Its 1B logically speaking by feats and statement but Shu isn't worried about powerscaling and giving us a better story people just can't accept the upgrade because of maou Gakuin story and scale being better than their favourite generic Isekai. Let them atleast grab on to something 😂
 
Elizhaa said:
Like ActuallySpaceMan, I can see 5D being fine; the wording fits the whole "subset" thing in our tiering system.

For 6-D, I don't think the evidence is enough. I remember DontTalkDT and Ultima Reality explaining why such cases would not necessarily be higher-dimensional.
Using DontTalk's explanations, assuming the bubbles are 5-D, doesn't make the silver sea 6-D from the math.
Click to expand...
Hey, Elizhaa! How are you doing? Are you fine? I don't want to take your time much, but I added new info and a new scan in my OP thread (under the 1-C category).
I will copy it for you here and review it, tho! Thanks for you being here. Also, if you don't mind, can you ping Ultima and DT to view it as well, tho?
Here is the new explanation and the scans are already in my OP thread (new ones). Hopes, you enjoy it!
The silver sea's time flow is independent of the bubbles', Therefore the Silver Sea is a separate bigger (extradimensional space) space-time continuum. Elensia can view a complete bubble world (5D) but she cannot perceive the end of the silver sea and perceives it as endless even while being able to see an Infinitely large 5D space. The bubbles are infinitely sized 5D already. Bubble worlds can't perceive the silver sea. Also, an additional note is that they can't even get out of bubbles Worlds without a travelling aka usage of ships. And those ships are created by chief gods. Chief gods transcend the bubble worlds. The world's reality is set by the upper limits of the order. Birth of Eques (chief God) in Militia World (5D) stated to surpass that set limits. Later, that world sinks into layer 1. Exceed means “transcend” in that context, and in Wiki, we always treat those two terms as the same.

Small info: Chief Gods are already accepted as higher dimensional existence in the wiki.
The layers of hax will still remain the same, as a single silver bubble would be Low 1-C. But Ano's true key won't have the layers.
Click to expand...
Also, another note: This does not scale to the whole Silver Sea, only to Silver bubbles being 6D. So Anos will still have 99+ layers of hax.
The cosmology is still infinitely larger, and I will do the next CRT after silver bubbles 6D is accepted.
 
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Dread said:

Introduction​

As you guys know, Maou Gakuin cosmology is presently at the 2-A tier.
The good news (bad news for haters) is that we got more scans/statements/shreds of evidence for a good possibleness of a low 1-C tier (5D- possibly 6D to be precise)

Cosmology Overview​

eC6QjYv.jpg

Credits for the picture/cosmology go to me @Dread

This is how the cosmology looks like in The Misfit of Demon King Academy Series. You can zoom in to view bubble World and Militia World.

Currently, this is what it looks like:
  • 1 realm (sanctuary) is 2-A (contains countless infinite timeline/space-time continuums)
  • 1 Azure Sky = countless realms
  • 1 bubble contains countless infinite black sky + Azure lane = countless 2-A
  • 0 layer contains infinite bubbles Worlds
  • 1-99+ layers = countless up to infinite Bubbles
There are 99+ layers in the silver sea. All layers are of the same size. Here is the thread that evaluates our cosmology for 99+ x baseline 2-A (currently one of the strongest 2-As in a wiki)

Note: For more info, here is the cosmology page

Low 1-C rationalization​

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」
"Each sanctuary is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the root of the world is fixed, the number of fire dewdrops in da ku kadate is fixed, as is the number of flowers in this sanctuary."
「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」

"Each divine domain is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the source of the world is fixed, so is the amount of fire dew in Da Ku Kadate, and the number of flowers in this divine domain."

Every sanctuary (realm) is just a microcosm of the bubble. And microcosm is microscopic, miniature, a copy of a larger place, a small unit. So that world is very limited by a bubble and treated only as subsets of it, and make bubble is infinitely greater in all parts of the universes (sanctuary) because universes are only a small unit in the infinite bubble. It also means every sanctuary has the same, similar structure.

ミーシャが目の前を指さす。

　鮮やかな蒼穹に星のように散りばめられているのは、黄金の火山や白色の湖、いばらの大地、車輪のような街など、色とりどりの様々な風景だ。

「ここが神々の蒼穹。見えている風景は、どれも神域」

　エンネスオーネの芽宮神都や、ナフタの限局世界と同じものだ。

　確かに、どれもこれも、凄まじい魔力を発している。

Misha points out in front of him.

　Scattered like stars across the brilliant azure sky are a variety of colorful landscapes, including golden volcanoes, white lakes, thorny lands, and wheel-like cities.

"This is the azure sky of the gods. Every landscape you see is a divine realm."

　It is the same as the budding divine city of Ennesione and the limited world of Nafta.

　Indeed, all of them emit tremendous magical power.

The future world is also a sanctuary. There are countless realms, but the black sky itself is infinite in size and is not bound by the real world.

There is nothing in-between countable infinity and uncountable infinity, so something that is stated to be bigger than the former would result in the latter by necessity. This applies to Maou Gakuin's case, as Kandaquizorte (a 2-A structure) was stated to be small compared to the Bubble.

In math terms​

Kandaquizorte (sanctuary) <<<<<<<<<< 1 bubble and there are Infinite bubbles = 1 layer

microcosm statement for the bubble = 5D

In the Silver Water Holy Sea, 14,000 years ago. Before the God of Creation Militia was born, the name of that bubble world was Elenesia. That is, there is a discrepancy in time between the Silver Sea and the small world. From the perspective of the Militia World, it was roughly more than 700 million years ago--
"Even so, the Militia World was created 700 million years ago, right?" "In the Silver Water Holy Sea, it is only about 14,000 years old." A questioning look appeared on Sasha. Then Misha explained. "Luna fell into the Elenesia World 14,000 years ago." "...Oh, I see, that's right... Huh? But I was certain that the Militia World is 700 million years old since its creation...?" "Perhaps time is out of sync." "...Well, for example, when a day passes in the 7th of Elenesia, a year or even longer passes in the Militia World?" "Simply put, yes. However, I haven't been able to confirm any discrepancy in time between the small worlds we have visited so far and the Militia World. One second here in the 7th of Elenesia is exactly the same as one second in the Militia World." Sasha looked more and more puzzled. "Then, what do you mean?" "A discrepancy in time somehow occurred once. And now, it's back to normal, I guess." For example, if nearly 700 million years have passed only in the Militia World, while time has stopped in this Silver Sea, it would make sense. It's not certain if the Militia World accelerated or if the other small worlds stopped.
The silver water sacred sea is wide. 　It is endlessly vast. 　Even with her God's eye, which is well penetrated throughout her own world, she is unable to predict the whole picture. Its endlessness felt to her like a distance to peace. 　No matter how much we seek peace, we will never get there. This silver sea is so endless that it seems that way.
The gears of the upper limits begin to turn. Limits are raised by the gears, and thou and I are separated by a dimension of power. 　Eques tries to crush me with a force that seems to exceed the upper limits of order.
The silver sea's time flow is independent of the bubbles', Therefore the Silver Sea is a separate bigger (extradimensional space) space-time continuum. Elensia can view a complete bubble world (5D) but she cannot perceive the end of the silver sea and perceives it as endless even while being able to see an Infinitely large 5D space. The bubbles are infinitely sized 5D already. Bubble worlds can't perceive the silver sea. Also, an additional note is that they can't even get out of bubbles Worlds without a travelling aka usage of ships. And those ships are created by chief gods. Chief gods transcend the bubble worlds. The world's reality is set by the upper limits of the order. Birth of Eques (chief God) in Militia World (5D) stated to surpass that set limits. Later, that world sinks into layer 1. Exceed means “transcend” in that context, and in Wiki, we always treat those two terms as the same.

Small info: Chief Gods are already accepted as higher dimensional existence in the wiki.
The layers of hax will still remain the same, as a single silver bubble would be Low 1-C. But Ano's true key won't have the layers.

Conclusion​

This means, there is no object being larger than the 2-A structure while still remaining 2-A yourself

Results​

Note: Bold = Staff Opinion

Agree: 0 (0:20) @Gasfo @Ubdon (with 5D), @Wagy, @sen_ @Ottavio_Merluzzo, @Yohata, @Satoshi23, @Diablo_, @Accelerator, @GustiTalk12, @Tatsumi504 (with 5D), @Rendynoc0unter, @Shadow_Somnius, @Overlord_THE_END (with 5D), @ZinnaiYama (with 5D), @God900, @Caduz213, @EldemadeDityjon (with 6D), @YoPercy (with 5D), @Arzzz (with 5D)
Disagree: 0 (0:0)
Neutral: 0 (0:6) @Ubdon (neutral with 6D), @Tatsumi504 (with 6D), @Overlord_THE_END (with 6D), @ZinnaiYama (with 6D), @YoPercy (with 6D), @Arzzz (with 6D)
Click to expand...
I agreed
 
Peak said:
sometimes I have the feeling that a CRT involving MGK is at least 10x harder to accept
Click to expand...
Lets wait, tbh. Please no comments since I added new info and waiting for staff to see it tho,
 
Guys, stop derailing for God's sake. I don't want to see any such comments after my comment. I begged for your patience to wait for staff input. Please.
Also for people waiting, I recommend you for reading my OP thread once again after I added new information.
Moreover, another note: This does not scale to the whole Silver Sea, only to Silver bubbles being 6D. So Anos will still have 99+ layers of hax.
The cosmology (Silver Sea) is still infinitely larger, and I will do the next CRT after silver bubbles 6D is accepted.

This is only for silver bubbles getting 6D, Anos still has his layers Hax.

Just stop commenting for now. Reading is better. Wait for staff since I pinged one already.
 
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Since this CRT brings math (or Set Theory to be precise) here as justifications, you should call people who are really knowledgeable about said subject to evaluate it (like DT, Ultima, or Agnaa for examples).

Dread said:
Every sanctuary (realm) is just a microcosm of the bubble. And microcosm is microscopic, miniature, a copy of a larger place, a small unit. So that world is very limited by a bubble and treated only as subsets of it, and make bubble is infinitely greater in all parts of the universes (sanctuary) because universes are only a small unit in the infinite bubble. It also means every sanctuary has the same, similar structure.

The future world is also a sanctuary. There are countless realms, but the black sky itself is infinite in size and is not bound by the real world.
Click to expand...
Since you've already described the very nature of a microcosm is like it shouldn't be a difficult thing to explain, it is microscopic, small, and is a part of something bigger; a subset.

Which means this is a kind of misinterpretation of Set Theory. Because in Set Theory, an infinite cardinals which is a subset of an even greater infinite (such as N being a subset of Z, Z to Q, and more) can still have the same magnitude of size because they all can still be listed as a conventional infinite, which in mathematical terms such method is called as bijection, which I think it has been mentioned here for a few times in the comments above so I'm going to assume that none of you don't understand it (the easiest analogy to understand it is that 2 hands with 10 fingers in total, 5 each, will only become 5 once these two hands are put together, closed). For example, the set of natural numbers (N) which is an extension of positive numbers as a whole is not entirely smaller than the set of integers (Z, both positive and negative). In Layman's terms, infinite is not smaller than infinite*2 even though the former would be only a subset of the latter. That's because they both can still be bijected.

N: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...

Z: ...-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3...

To: 0, -1, 1, -2, 2, -3, 3, -4, 4...

Means although Z is twice larger than N, two of them are in fact have the same size because they both are still countable sets. Similar case occurs if you remove all the odd numbers of an infinity, it won't reduce its numerical size at all since infinite is infinite anyway, numbers are totally irrrelevant in conventional sense. Same method can still be used to the set of rational numbers, or Q, which consists all kinds of infinite fractions that could still be expressed with by a/b (or for the simplicity sake let's say infinite*infinite) with Cantor's Diagonal Argument. What I'm trying to rephrase here is that an infinite thing(s) that exist as a subset of even a bigger infinite, can still have the same size even though the ontological difference is like baseline infinite to infinite*infinite. It doesn't matter.

This is also the basic reason why multiple infinite multiverses aren't qualified as above baseline of 2-A, literally for the same ways as above; all types of countable sets can still be bijected. Which means, even if there are an infinite amount of multiverses which each of them is infinite-sized, they all will remain as baseline 2-A unless if:
-uncountable sets
-feats of affecting multiple multiverses is proven to be more difficult than a single one
-indication(s) regarding they are strictly bigger than one
-et cetera

Problem is, none of the scans above you are presenting are qualified to one of those. All they say only imply that the Sanctuary is a subset of a larger infinite object which doesn't translate as a significant difference with multiple infinite multiverses argument, or baseline. You also said that all Sanctuaries have the same and similar structures, which is a bad news by the way. Because the reason why the set of irrational numbers cannot be bijected to countable cardinals is simply because they are too much complex to be listed, and has been proven to do so, means the Sanctuaries can still be bijected or baseline it is.

Dread said:
There is nothing in-between countable infinity and uncountable infinity, so something that is stated to be bigger than the former would result in the latter by necessity. This applies to Maou Gakuin's case, as Kandaquizorte (a 2-A structure) was stated to be small compared to the Bubble.
Click to expand...
This as well is wrong but it's understandable at least as this site tends to works on that way. The thing between there is strict cardinals between countable set and R (not aleph-1 because R is what relevant in Tiering System, 1 dimension equivalent) depends on whether the Continuum Hypothesis being false or truth, something that cannot be proven or disaproven. Just an addition to avoid misinterpretation.

So let alone 5D, they aren't even larger than baseline 2-A with those scans above unless if you can prove that the Bubble Worlds have solid evidence(s) for them being strictly bigger (in the sense of size), harder to destroy, and not just being infinitely bigger than infinite.

Dread said:
The silver sea's time flow is independent of the bubbles', Therefore the Silver Sea is a separate bigger (extradimensional space) space-time continuum. Elensia can view a complete bubble world (5D) but she cannot perceive the end of the silver sea and perceives it as endless even while being able to see an Infinitely large 5D space. The bubbles are infinitely sized 5D already. Bubble worlds can't perceive the silver sea. Also, an additional note is that they can't even get out of bubbles Worlds without a travelling aka usage of ships. And those ships are created by chief gods. Chief gods transcend the bubble worlds. The world's reality is set by the upper limits of the order. Birth of Eques (chief God) in Militia World (5D) stated to surpass that set limits. Later, that world sinks into layer 1. Exceed means “transcend” in that context, and in Wiki, we always treat those two terms as the same.
Click to expand...
Apologize. But at this point you're making a very reaching argument by assuming that the Silver Sea has a complex time structure like multiple temporal dimensions, which I see no indication here at all. I'll repeat, nothing at all. Because what the scans and what the context clearly implies that the dissimilarity of flow of time merely occurs because the depth difference between shallow worlds and deeper worlds. People in Silver Sea is much tougher, concepts/orders in Silver Sea are much more stronger, so it wouldn't be unnatural for the flow of time in Silver Sea also runs slower, being more condensed and solid (knowing the cosmology of this verse is literally a sea, where the deeper it is the stronger the pressure would be). Literally no context regarding the time dimension being higher dimensional, no context about the time in the Silver Sea is a complex 2-dimensional time consisting 1 dimension of real time and 1 dimension as per physic, no context about the time is an infinitely denser time with 1-dimensional linear time exist as its infinitesimal subset as per cardinality, et cetera. it's a damn extreme extrapolation. That's not how Occam's Razor works. You can still have different speed of flow of time in 1 time dimension, especially when the context literally is about sea where the deeper it goes the more ****** it is.

So 6D arguments are no no to me too, the evidences are just too lacking.

Tl;dr I disagree with everything. Not to mention the previous 2-A thread was rushed like @Pain_to12 said, and I have to rant about how this verse is beyond ****** now especially when it too relies on raw with literally no proper translation.
 
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