maou gakuin no futekigousha Upgrade from 2-A to low 1-C

[Tatsumi504]

I'm gone for less than a day and it's part chaos.
Looks like ant absconded like he said he would

Anyway, won't it be better to try the 6D one later since it seems there's conflicting opinions?

@Sergeant_Hypocrite the realms/shrines/sanctuaries are described as microcosms of the bubble. Going by the statement, all realms have the same structure and one of them (the future world) is confirmed to be 2-A (there are countless realms).
The realms are then contained in the azure sky of the Gods which is said to be endless (infinite) which is then located in the black sky (also infinite size).
The azure sky itself is already a subset of the bubble, the realms (2-A) are then said to be mere microcosms of the bubble itself. You cannot be said to be larger than 2-A while still remaining 2-A yourself

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Since this CRT brings math (or Set Theory to be precise) here as justifications, you should call people who are really knowledgeable about said subject to evaluate it (like DT, Ultima, or Agnaa for examples).


Since you've already described the very nature of a microcosm is like it shouldn't be a difficult thing to explain, it is microscopic, small, and is a part of something bigger; a subset.

Which means this is a kind of misinterpretation of Set Theory. Because in Set Theory, an infinite cardinals which is a subset of an even greater infinite (such as N being a subset of Z, Z to Q, and more) can still have the same magnitude of size because they all can still be listed as a conventional infinite, which in mathematical terms such method is called as bijection, which I think it has been mentioned here for a few times in the comments above so I'm going to assume that none of you don't understand it (the easiest analogy to understand it is that 2 hands with 10 fingers in total (5 each) will only become 5 once these two hands are put together, closed). For example, the set of natural numbers (N) which is an extension of positive numbers as a whole is not entirely smaller than the set of integers (Z, both positive and negative). In Layman's terms, infinite is not smaller than infinite*2 even though the former would be only a subset of the latter. That's because they both can still be bijected.

N: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...

Z: ...-3, -2, -1, 0, 1, 2, 3...

To: 0, -1, 1, -2, 2, -3, 3, -4, 4...

Means although Z is twice larger than N, two of them are in fact have the same size because they both are still countable sets. Similar case occurs if you remove all the odd numbers of an infinity, it won't reduce its numerical size at all since infinite is infinite anyway, numbers are totally irrrelevant in conventional sense. Same method can still be used to the set of rational numbers, or Q, which consists all kinds of infinite fractions that could still be expressed with by a/b (or for the simplicity sake let's say infinite*infinite) with Cantor's Diagonal Argument. What I'm trying to rephrase here is that an infinite thing(s) that exist as a subset of even a bigger infinite, can still have the same size even though the ontological difference is like baseline infinite to infinite*infinite. It doesn't matter.

This is also the basic reason why multiple infinite multiverses aren't qualified as above baseline of 2-A, literally for the same ways as above; all types of countable sets can still be bijected. Which means, even if there are an infinite amount of multiverses which each of them is infinite-sized, they all will remain as baseline 2-A unless if:
-uncountable sets
-feats of affecting multiple multiverses is proven to be more difficult than a single one
-indication(s) regarding they are strictly bigger than one
-et cetera

Problem is, none of the scans above you are presenting are qualified to one of those. All they say only imply that the Sanctuary is a subset of a larger infinite object which doesn't translate as an significant difference with multiple infinite multiverses argument, or baseline. You also said that all Sanctuaries have the same and similar structures, which is a bad news by the way. Because the reason why the set of irrational numbers cannot be bijected to countable cardinals is simply because they are too much complex to be listed, and has been proven to do so, means the Sanctuaries can still be bijected or baseline it is.


This as well is wrong but it's understandable at least as this site tends to works on that way. The thing between there is strict cardinals between countable set and R (not aleph-1 because R is what relevant in Tiering System, 1 dimension equivalent) depends on whether the Continuum Hypothesis being false or truth, something that cannot be proven or disaproven. Just an addition to avoid misinterpretation.

So let alone 5D, they aren't even larger than baseline 2-A with those scans above unless if you can prove that the Bubble Worlds have solid evidence(s) for them being strictly bigger (in the sense of size), harder to destroy, and not just being infinitely bigger than infinite.


Apologize. But at this point you're making a very reaching argument by assuming that the Silver Sea has a complex time structure like multiple temporal dimensions, which I see no indication here at all. I'll repeat, nothing at all. Because what the scans and what the context clearly implies that the dissimilarity of flow of time merely occurs because the depth difference between shallow worlds and deeper worlds. People in Silver Sea is much tougher, concepts/orders in Silver Sea are much more stronger, so it wouldn't be unnatural for the flow of time in Silver Sea also runs slower, being more condensed and solid (knowing the cosmology of this verse is literally a sea, where the deeper it is the stronger the pressure would be). Literally no context regarding the time dimension being higher dimensional, no context about the time in Silver Sea is a complex 2-dimensional time consisting 1 dimension of real time and 1 dimension as per physic, no context about the time is an infinitely denser time with 1-dimensional linear time exist as its infinitesimal subset as per cardinality, et cetera. it's a damn extreme extrapolation. That's not how Occam's Razor works. You can still have different speed of flow of time in 1 time dimension, especially when the context literally is about sea where the deeper it goes the more ****** it is.

So 6D arguments are no no to me too, the evidences are just too lacking.

Tl;dr I disagree with everything. Not to mention the previous 2-A thread was rushed like @Pain_to12 said, and I have to rant about how this verse is beyond ****** now especially when it too relies on raw with literally no proper translation.

I guess the friend of yours who requested to evaluate this thread with their almighty vision is Pain


Just gonna point our Realms size and Bubbles world size are not same Creator Gods can see complete Azure sky and Mortal world where azure sky has countless realms which has 2A structure. But she can't see the end of black sky which is the size of Bubbles world.

Next Birth of Chief god Makes the world evolve and perceive Silver Sea and Chief gods are stated to transcend the world. So don't see how you debunked any of these. Large Paragraphs with no context isn't my style so this is all I can say.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

I guess the friend of yours who requested to evaluate this thread with their almighty vision is Pain


Just gonna point our Realms size and Bubbles world size are not same Creator Gods can see complete Azure sky and Mortal world where azure sky has countless realms which has 2A structure. But she can't see the end of black sky which is the size of Bubbles world.

Next Birth of Chief god Makes the world evolve and perceive Silver Sea and Chief gods are stated to transcend the world. So don't see how you debunked any of these. Large Paragraphs with no context isn't my style so this is all I can say.

No, it's not Pain.

And I don't see her being unable to see the end of the Bubble Worlds means it being larger mathematically wise. It could mayhaps qualified as a range feat, but not size as per my knowledge. That's why you have to contact experts here but there would be a high chance this CRT will be getting rejected, so I can see the risk lol.

 

[Sus]

I think 1B is better than low 1C..

 

[ImmortalDread]

I think 1B is better than low 1C..

For the whole SS cosmology, yes. Silver bubbles are fairly 6D.

 

[Sus]

For the whole SS cosmology, yes. Silver bubbles are fairly 6D.

Don't we already scale anos to the silver sea?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Don't we already scale anos to the silver sea?

No, to silver bubbles. SS is literally still larger. Perhaps, this is delayed for next CRT

 

[Sus]

No, to silver bubbles. SS is literally still larger. Perhaps, this is delayed for next CRT

Anos constantly suppresses his destructive power by offsetting his own power with his own power, and normally controls only the barely remaining power after that, all to prevent the universe from being destroyed by his mere presence.[154] It is implied that Anos' true destructive power is on par with <Venuzdonoa>. Anos is a near-perfect Lion of Destruction[155] which is capable of destroying[156] the Silver Sea

Venuzdonoa can destroy all things in creation, no matter how tough, eternal or infinite they are[29], which would include the Silver Sea which is composed of 99+ layers, with each layer containing countless universes in the shape of bubbles. In front of this Reason Destroying Sword, all reason turns to nothing, therefore it is useless to think about what it can or cannot do[30]. Each layer of the Silver Sea possibly has infinite size, therefore each layer can theoretically contain an infinite number of universes

?

 

[ImmortalDread]

?

It is only proof that he is capable of destroying the whole cosmology, but the Silver Sea itself is larger than 6D.

 

[PrinceofPein]

with their almighty vision is Pain

Almight violence**

Nah it's not me

 

[Tatsumi504]

-feats of affecting multiple multiverses is proven to be more difficult than a single one
-indication(s) regarding they are strictly bigger than one

Except that it's literally there? Destroying any of those realms is easier than destroying the entirety of the next space that contains it.
Bubble> black sky> azure sky> mortal world (all having infinite size).

Graham who was capable of this feat in which he was affecting one the realms

WN Chapter 265.

"I don't think you would believe me if I told you. Otherwise, I would have come to you long ago and told you everything."

It sounds plausible, but it is not necessarily true.

"It doesn't add up. If you wanted me to remember, why did you try to destroy the God of Traces?"

"Because if I wait until your memory comes back, the Trace God is likely to escape."

Celis raised his hand and drew a multiple magic circle on it.

Immediately, the air changed to something different.

The calm surface of the water rippled violently.

This is the beginning of time.

The pooling water is the trace of each drop imprinted on this world.

That order was being violently distorted by the magic of Celis, which had not even been activated yet.

It's quite a feat of great magic, isn't it?

You'd better get out of there. You won't die, but you might get hurt.

Later on says this

Spoiler

Next time, I'll cut even deeper. If it is in the deepest part of the root, even if I unleash the "extreme hell world ash burning magic cannon Egil Grone Angdroa," the scarlet electric red lightning will prevent it from affecting the outside world as much as possible. The world will not be destroyed.

"That's your flaw. It is true that you are strong, but you have no control over your power. You can't really put your mind to it. But I can focus my abundance of doom magic on a single point. Do you know what I mean?"

　Celis said with a smile.

"I mean that I can release world-collapsing magic only on your body and its roots without destroying this world."

In other words, the magic he used to affect the realm merely by attempting to activate it, is not considered "world" destroying magic.

As for Anos, he destroyed the land of traces (realm) with "Nirvana 7 steps conquest" <Gilieriam Naviem>. Gilieriam Naviem unleashes the destructive power within Anos source with each step. On the 6th step he completely destroyed the realm but couldn't unload the 7th one because not only will it destroy the realm, it will also destroy the world 1000x over and still have enough power to spare.

These already fit the requirement of destroying 1 being considered harder than destroying the other. Now these realms are only considered to be microcosms, simply a small part of the entire bubble itself were these realms are already contained in an infinite set that is only a subset of the bubble itself.

In other words, the bubble is considered to be larger than the realm itself and by site standards, you can't be larger than 2-A while still being 2-A, there is nothing between countable infinity and uncountable infinity therefore, if you're larger than the former, you can only be the latter. The set of all integers isn't exactly bigger than the set of all natural numbers as infinity* any number= infinity

 

[sen_]

Since you've already described the very nature of a microcosm is like it shouldn't be a difficult thing to explain, it is microscopic, small, and is a part of something bigger; a subset.

no, a microcosm implies a size difference by definition. Improper subsets exist.

Which means this is a kind of misinterpretation of Set Theory. Because in Set Theory, an infinite cardinals which is a subset of an even greater infinite (such as N being a subset of Z, Z to Q, and more) can still have the same magnitude of size because they all can still be listed as a conventional infinite, which in mathematical terms such method is called as bijection, which I think it has been mentioned here for a few times in the comments above so I'm going to assume that none of you don't understand it (the easiest analogy to understand it is that 2 hands with 10 fingers in total, 5 each, will only become 5 once these two hands are put together, closed). For example, the set of natural numbers (N) which is an extension of positive numbers as a whole is not entirely smaller than the set of integers (Z, both positive and negative). In Layman's terms, infinite is not smaller than infinite*2 even though the former would be only a subset of the latter. That's because they both can still be bijected.

a microcosm implies a difference in size tho, A > B in terms of cardinality, where A and B are both infinite sets implies there is no bijection between the two. This would work if there were no statements of the realms being strictly smaller than the World.

Means although Z is twice larger than N, two of them are in fact have the same size because they both are still countable sets. Similar case occurs if you remove all the odd numbers of an infinity, it won't reduce its numerical size at all since infinite is infinite anyway, numbers are totally irrrelevant in conventional sense. Same method can still be used to the set of rational numbers, or Q, which consists all kinds of infinite fractions that could still be expressed with by a/b (or for the simplicity sake let's say infinite*infinite) with Cantor's Diagonal Argument. What I'm trying to rephrase here is that an infinite thing(s) that exist as a subset of even a bigger infinite, can still have the same size even though the ontological difference is like baseline infinite to infinite*infinite. It doesn't matter.

Z is not twice as large as N, N is a proper subset of Z, but Z is not larger than N. Q also isn't a good example for this.

This is also the basic reason why multiple infinite multiverses aren't qualified as above baseline of 2-A, literally for the same ways as above; all types of countable sets can still be bijected. Which means, even if there are an infinite amount of multiverses which each of them is infinite-sized, they all will remain as baseline 2-A unless if:
-uncountable sets
-feats of affecting multiple multiverses is proven to be more difficult than a single one
-indication(s) regarding they are strictly bigger than one
-et cetera

a multiverse is just a set of multiple universes, it can be written as m = {U1,U2,U3,U4,...} where Un is a Universe. It's quite obvious why multiple infinite multiverses don't qualify. The fact that all countable sets can be bijected implies by definition that it is uncountable because it is strictly bigger.

This as well is wrong but it's understandable at least as this site tends to works on that way. The thing between there is strict cardinals between countable set and R (not aleph-1 because R is what relevant in Tiering System, 1 dimension equivalent) depends on whether the Continuum Hypothesis being false or truth, something that cannot be proven or disaproven. Just an addition to avoid misinterpretation.

it doesn't matter, any set that exceeds the number of elements of N is by definition uncountable. The definition of Low 1-C is uncountably infinite Universes. So regardless of gch it works.

 

[NieferGoingCraaazy]

Introduction​

---

As you guys know, Maou Gakuin cosmology is presently at the 2-A tier.
The good news (bad news for haters) is that we got more scans/statements/shreds of evidence for a good possibleness of a low 1-C tier (5D- possibly 6D to be precise)

Cosmology Overview​

---

Credits for the picture/cosmology go to me @Dread

This is how the cosmology looks like in The Misfit of Demon King Academy Series. You can zoom in to view bubble World and Militia World.

Currently, this is what it looks like:

• 1 realm (sanctuary) is 2-A (contains countless infinite timeline/space-time continuums)
• 1 Azure Sky = countless realms
• 1 bubble contains countless infinite black sky + Azure lane = countless 2-A
• 0 layer contains infinite bubbles Worlds
• 1-99+ layers = countless up to infinite Bubbles

There are 99+ layers in the silver sea. All layers are of the same size. Here is the thread that evaluates our cosmology for 99+ x baseline 2-A (currently one of the strongest 2-As in a wiki)

Note: For more info, here is the cosmology page

Low 1-C rationalization​

---

Spoiler: Chapter 425; Each sanctuary is a microcosm of the world

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」
"Each sanctuary is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the root of the world is fixed, the number of fire dewdrops in da ku kadate is fixed, as is the number of flowers in this sanctuary."

Spoiler: Chapter 425; Each divine domain is a microcosm of the world

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」

"Each divine domain is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the source of the world is fixed, so is the amount of fire dew in Da Ku Kadate, and the number of flowers in this divine domain."

Every sanctuary (realm) is just a microcosm of the bubble. And microcosm is microscopic, miniature, a copy of a larger place, a small unit. So that world is very limited by a bubble and treated only as subsets of it, and make bubble is infinitely greater in all parts of the universes (sanctuary) because universes are only a small unit in the infinite bubble. It also means every sanctuary has the same, similar structure.

Spoiler: Chapter 422; Azure Sky Arc

ミーシャが目の前を指さす。

　鮮やかな蒼穹に星のように散りばめられているのは、黄金の火山や白色の湖、いばらの大地、車輪のような街など、色とりどりの様々な風景だ。

「ここが神々の蒼穹。見えている風景は、どれも神域」

　エンネスオーネの芽宮神都や、ナフタの限局世界と同じものだ。

　確かに、どれもこれも、凄まじい魔力を発している。

Misha points out in front of him.

　Scattered like stars across the brilliant azure sky are a variety of colorful landscapes, including golden volcanoes, white lakes, thorny lands, and wheel-like cities.

"This is the azure sky of the gods. Every landscape you see is a divine realm."

　It is the same as the budding divine city of Ennesione and the limited world of Nafta.

　Indeed, all of them emit tremendous magical power.

The future world is also a sanctuary. There are countless realms, but the black sky itself is infinite in size and is not bound by the real world.

There is nothing in-between countable infinity and uncountable infinity, so something that is stated to be bigger than the former would result in the latter by necessity. This applies to Maou Gakuin's case, as Kandaquizorte (a 2-A structure) was stated to be small compared to the Bubble.

In math terms​

---

Kandaquizorte (sanctuary) <<<<<<<<<< 1 bubble and there are Infinite bubbles = 1 layer

microcosm statement for the bubble = 5D

Spoiler: Chapter 565

In the Silver Water Holy Sea, 14,000 years ago. Before the God of Creation Militia was born, the name of that bubble world was Elenesia. That is, there is a discrepancy in time between the Silver Sea and the small world. From the perspective of the Militia World, it was roughly more than 700 million years ago--

Spoiler: chapter 575

"Even so, the Militia World was created 700 million years ago, right?" "In the Silver Water Holy Sea, it is only about 14,000 years old." A questioning look appeared on Sasha. Then Misha explained. "Luna fell into the Elenesia World 14,000 years ago." "...Oh, I see, that's right... Huh? But I was certain that the Militia World is 700 million years old since its creation...?" "Perhaps time is out of sync." "...Well, for example, when a day passes in the 7th of Elenesia, a year or even longer passes in the Militia World?" "Simply put, yes. However, I haven't been able to confirm any discrepancy in time between the small worlds we have visited so far and the Militia World. One second here in the 7th of Elenesia is exactly the same as one second in the Militia World." Sasha looked more and more puzzled. "Then, what do you mean?" "A discrepancy in time somehow occurred once. And now, it's back to normal, I guess." For example, if nearly 700 million years have passed only in the Militia World, while time has stopped in this Silver Sea, it would make sense. It's not certain if the Militia World accelerated or if the other small worlds stopped.

Spoiler: Chapter 676

The silver water sacred sea is wide. 　It is endlessly vast. 　Even with her God's eye, which is well penetrated throughout her own world, she is unable to predict the whole picture. Its endlessness felt to her like a distance to peace. 　No matter how much we seek peace, we will never get there. This silver sea is so endless that it seems that way.

Spoiler: Chapter 477

The gears of the upper limits begin to turn. Limits are raised by the gears, and thou and I are separated by a dimension of power. 　Eques tries to crush me with a force that seems to exceed the upper limits of order.

The silver sea's time flow is independent of the bubbles', Therefore the Silver Sea is a separate bigger (extradimensional space) space-time continuum. Elensia can view a complete bubble world (5D) but she cannot perceive the end of the silver sea and perceives it as endless even while being able to see an Infinitely large 5D space. The bubbles are infinitely sized 5D already. Bubble worlds can't perceive the silver sea. Also, an additional note is that they can't even get out of bubbles Worlds without a travelling aka usage of ships. And those ships are created by chief gods. Chief gods transcend the bubble worlds. The world's reality is set by the upper limits of the order. Birth of Eques (chief God) in Militia World (5D) stated to surpass that set limits. Later, that world sinks into layer 1. Exceed means “transcend” in that context, and in Wiki, we always treat those two terms as the same.

Small info: Chief Gods are already accepted as higher dimensional existence in the wiki.
The layers of hax will still remain the same, as a single silver bubble would be Low 1-C. But Ano's true key won't have the layers.

Conclusion​

---

This means, there is no object being larger than the 2-A structure while still remaining 2-A yourself

Also, another note: This does not scale to the whole Silver Sea, only to Silver bubbles being 6D. So Anos will still have 99+ layers of hax.
The cosmology is still infinitely larger, and I will do the next CRT after silver bubbles 6D is accepted.

Results​

---

Note: Bold = Staff Opinion

Agree: 0 (0:20) @Gasfo @Ubdon (with 5D), @Wagy, @sen_ @Ottavio_Merluzzo, @Yohata, @Satoshi23, @Diablo_, @Accelerator, @GustiTalk12, @Tatsumi504 (with 5D), @Rendynoc0unter, @Shadow_Somnius, @Overlord_THE_END (with 5D), @ZinnaiYama (with 5D), @God900, @Caduz213, @EldemadeDityjon (with 6D), @YoPercy (with 5D), @Arzzz (with 5D)
Disagree: 0 (0:0)
Neutral: 0 (0:6) @Ubdon (neutral with 6D), @Tatsumi504 (with 6D), @Overlord_THE_END (with 6D), @ZinnaiYama (with 6D), @YoPercy (with 6D), @Arzzz (with 6D)

Agree mybe (6D)

 

[Braking]

 

[Dog3352]

Well, if shrines are microcosms of the world, and all shrines that had this size mentioned always had something like "the same shape of the world" (infinite), "extends infinitely in all directions" (infinite), if I'm not mistaken There are other statements, I don't know about the blue sky being infinite in size, but it has numerous structures at least low 2-C to 2-A, the entire Maou Gakuin cosmology looks like some kind of infinity greater than the other.

SS>>>>>SS Layers>>>>>>Bubble Worlds>>>>>>Black Sky>>>>>>Blue Sky of the Gods>>>>>Nafta World (Up to 2-A) and possibly the land of traces (not sure about this one>>>>>>>>All other Santuaries

And one infinity greater than the other. (I just don't know if the blue sky of the gods is infinite, but it is greater than the shrines and contains all of them)

 

[ImmortalDread]

Well, if shrines are microcosms of the world, and all shrines that had this size mentioned always had something like "the same shape of the world" (infinite), "extends infinitely in all directions" (infinite), if I'm not mistaken There are other statements, I don't know about the blue sky being infinite in size, but it has numerous structures at least low 2-C to 2-A, the entire Maou Gakuin cosmology looks like some kind of infinity greater than the other.

SS>>>>>SS Layers>>>>>>Bubble Worlds>>>>>>Black Sky>>>>>>Blue Sky of the Gods>>>>>Nafta World (Up to 2-A) and possibly the land of traces (not sure about this one>>>>>>>>All other Santuaries

And one infinity greater than the other. (I just don't know if the blue sky of the gods is infinite, but it is greater than the shrines and contains all of them)

Hence, why I said, this thread is only for 6D silver bubbles. For SS, it is for other CRT.

 

[Tatsumi504]

And one infinity greater than the other. (I just don't know if the blue sky of the gods is infinite, but it is greater than the shrines and contains all of them)

Azure sky is said to be endless (infinite)

 

[Dog3352]

Hence, why I said, this thread is only for 6D silver bubbles. For SS, it is for other CRT.

The blue sky of the gods is the black sky itself already has infinite spatial dimensions greater than Nafta World, and Militia World is bigger than them all, I don't see why 5D wouldn't be accepted.

 

[ImmortalDread]

The blue sky of the gods is the black sky itself already has infinite spatial dimensions greater than Nafta World, and Militia World is bigger than them all, I don't see why 5D wouldn't be accepted.

5D is overall accepted even by staff and other members (30+ votes). No worries.

 

[Greatsage13th]

The blue sky of the gods is the black sky itself already has infinite spatial dimensions greater than Nafta World, and Militia World is bigger than them all, I don't see why 5D wouldn't be accepted.

It is accepted. Just not 6D just yet

 

[Sus]

So is there a conclusion

 

[ImmortalDread]

So is there a conclusion

Yes, to wait for Elizhaa to respond to my input. And we already contacted other staff.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

No, it's not Pain.

And I don't see her being unable to see the end of the Bubble Worlds means it being larger mathematically wise. It could mayhaps qualified as a range feat, but not size as per my knowledge. That's why you have to contact experts here but there would be a high chance this CRT will be getting rejected, so I can see the risk lol.

She can view countless 2A structure but can't see the black sky ends. Author specifically states it as infinite size. Novels two statements backs up Bubble world being infinite size. Countless realms exists inside the azure sky and azure sky is just a subset of Black sky it's still higher infinite. Anyway 5D Thing is already accepted. 6D is the only thing left for debate.

 

[YoPercy]

For SS, it is for other CRT.

Are you creating a SS CRT after this CRT is reviewed?

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Except that it's literally there? Destroying any of those realms is easier than destroying the entirety of the next space that contains it.
Bubble> black sky> azure sky> mortal world (all having infinite size).

Graham who was capable of this feat in which he was affecting one the realms

Later on says this

Spoiler

Next time, I'll cut even deeper. If it is in the deepest part of the root, even if I unleash the "extreme hell world ash burning magic cannon Egil Grone Angdroa," the scarlet electric red lightning will prevent it from affecting the outside world as much as possible. The world will not be destroyed.

"That's your flaw. It is true that you are strong, but you have no control over your power. You can't really put your mind to it. But I can focus my abundance of doom magic on a single point. Do you know what I mean?"

　Celis said with a smile.

"I mean that I can release world-collapsing magic only on your body and its roots without destroying this world."

In other words, the magic he used to affect the realm merely by attempting to activate it, is not considered "world" destroying magic.

As for Anos, he destroyed the land of traces (realm) with "Nirvana 7 steps conquest" <Gilieriam Naviem>. Gilieriam Naviem unleashes the destructive power within Anos source with each step. On the 6th step he completely destroyed the realm but couldn't unload the 7th one because not only will it destroy the realm, it will also destroy the world 1000x over and still have enough power to spare.

These already fit the requirement of destroying 1 being considered harder than destroying the other. Now these realms are only considered to be microcosms, simply a small part of the entire bubble itself were these realms are already contained in an infinite set that is only a subset of the bubble itself.

Granted, they aren't present in the scans by the OP.

In other words, the bubble is considered to be larger than the realm itself and by site standards, you can't be larger than 2-A while still being 2-A, there is nothing between countable infinity and uncountable infinity therefore, if you're larger than the former, you can only be the latter. The set of all integers isn't exactly bigger than the set of all natural numbers as infinity* any number= infinity

Oh no, not necessarily. Being larger than infinity doesn't always properly translate as a higher dimension since Continuum Hypothesis is a thing, it's not always right (although it seems like this site's treated it that way, no one can proven whether there is a strict cardinality between naturals and real numbers). And I never said the set of integers is bigger than naturals either, because I literally said at the same time I said that they are the same in size so I don't understand why would you brought that about.

All I see here is 2-A above baseline, or that's how I think the standards at least. Since if we're abusing this "infinite bigger than infinite is higher dimension!" you would bump a fuckton of verses where even 2 infinite multiverses would be qualified as one as long as they've shown superiority in size.

no, a microcosm implies a size difference by definition. Improper subsets exist. A microcosm implies a difference in size tho, A > B in terms of cardinality, where A and B are both infinite sets implies there is no bijection between the two. This would work if there were no statements of the realms being strictly smaller than the World.

I don't see that much of a difference with 2 infinite multiverses whereas said two mutiverses are completely different and separated (2 is bigger than 1, it's not infinite*2), yet we're still treat them as baseline range and AP - works with bijection only if we fuse them together into one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Z is not twice as large as N, N is a proper subset of Z, but Z is not larger than N. Q also isn't a good example for this.

Correct, and I never said Z is actually larger than N because at the same time I literally said they are equal in size (2). It's just 2 times bigger in some sense, an analogy of bijection argument in correlation to the size difference.

a multiverse is just a set of multiple universes, it can be written as m = {U1,U2,U3,U4,...} where Un is a Universe. It's quite obvious why multiple infinite multiverses don't qualify. The fact that all countable sets can be bijected implies by definition that it is uncountable because it is strictly bigger.

Yeah, I know that one too.

it doesn't matter, any set that exceeds the number of elements of N is by definition uncountable. The definition of Low 1-C is uncountably infinite Universes. So regardless of gch it works.

Same reply as above, being larger than N doesn't always means R being reached. Well, I don't think this opinion of mine matter since this wikia Tiering System completely ignores the skepticism of Continuum Hypothesis.

I find it's difficult to argue here since I disagree with the previous 2-A Bubble Worlds CRT, I disagree with the Tiering System standards, and I don't like arguing against raw scans that too much replying on machine translators where their credibility become seriously questioned. So I'll stop here. That's why I suggest to call 'em over the experts here.

 

[Legion_Empire]

KontoI

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

She can view countless 2A structure but can't see the black sky ends. Author specifically states it as infinite size. Novels two statements backs up Bubble world being infinite size. Countless realms exists inside the azure sky and azure sky is just a subset of Black sky it's still higher infinite. Anyway 5D Thing is already accepted. 6D is the only thing left for debate.

Author said almost-infinite if my memory recall. And who accepted it? Elizhaa? You need more staffs to get this done lol, and there are still people who disagree. And no offense I don't think Elizhaa is knowledgable regarding this subject.

Just get DontTalkDT here or Agnaa and Ultima.

 

[Delta333]

I don't see that much of a difference with 2 infinite multiverses whereas said two mutiverses are completely different and separated (2 is bigger than 1, it's not infinite*2), yet we're still treat them as baseline range and AP - works with bijection only if we fuse them together into one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Because multiple 2-As and one 2-A have the same cardinality (or the same size, if you want), we don't treat the former as Low 1-C, not because being bigger than 2-A is not enough. In this case, the microcosm already indicates that one is smaller than another, which none of your examples have at all.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Author said almost-infinite if my memory recall. And who accepted it? Elizhaa? You need more staffs to get this done lol, and there are still people who disagree. And no offense I don't think Elizhaa is knowledgable regarding this subject.

Just get DontTalkDT here or Agnaa and Ultima.

Author never said they are almost infinite this is just headcanon and nitpicking some words. Cosmology blog clearly explains each worlds being infinite size and author statements also backs it up.

Almost infinite size comes for mortal world not for Bubble world. Also fun fact there is already a discussion rule not to downgrade the worlds. There was already people who made the CRT and created the rule.

 

[Dog3352]

Author said almost-infinite if my memory recall. And who accepted it?

He mentioned that the black sky is infinite twice, once it was in the story, and once it was a statement, where he says that both the layers and the bubble worlds and the black sky are infinite.

Can anyone answer me why this statement was removed from the explanation of cosmology?

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

He mentioned that the black sky is infinite twice, once it was in the story, and once it was a statement, where he says that both the layers and the bubble worlds and the black sky are infinite.

Can anyone answer me why this statement was removed from the explanation of cosmology?

It wasn't. The guy is just commenting without reading the blog

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

Because multiple 2-As and one 2-A have the same cardinality (or the same size, if you want), we don't treat the former as Low 1-C, not because being bigger than 2-A is not enough. In this case, the microcosm already indicates that one is smaller than another, which none of your examples have at all.

Being strictly bigger than 2-A means you're bigger than N, which means the logic behind it becomes uncountable still applies.

 

[Dog3352]

It wasn't. The guy is just commenting without reading the blog

Oh right, and I swear I'm not finding the author's statement on the blog.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Oh right, and I swear I'm not finding the author's statement on the blog.

Its in the bottom of the explanation anyway we don't need author statements. There is two different statements exists in the novels only

 

[Delta333]

Being strictly bigger than 2-A means you're bigger than N, which means the logic behind it becomes uncountable still applies.

True, but two sets of infinite multiverses and one are the same (despite 2>1), while the logic here is that there is a structure that is outright stated to be bigger than 2-A (or N). From what I understand, something which is stated to be 3x bigger than 2-A will not be enough for Low 1-C, while being stated to be bigger than 2-A only (without further elaboration about being bigger to what extent) will qualify for Tier 1 (like this girl). I kinda don't agree with how it works but I think it's already accepted to be a thing.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

True, but two sets of infinite multiverses and one are the same (despite 2>1), while the logic here is that there is a structure that is outright stated to be bigger than 2-A (or N). From what I understand, something which is stated to be 3x bigger than 2-A will not be enough for Low 1-C, while being stated to be bigger than 2-A only (without further elaboration about being bigger to what extent) will qualify for Tier 1 (like this girl). I kinda don't agree with how it works but I think it's already accepted to be a thing.

It's still the same thing no matter what. If you accept Continuum Hypothesis anything larger than N would be higher dimensional, even if it's just twice as large.

 

[sen_]

I don't see that much of a difference with 2 infinite multiverses whereas said two mutiverses are completely different and separated (2 is bigger than 1, it's not infinite*2), yet we're still treat them as baseline range and AP - works with bijection only if we fuse them together into one. Correct me if I'm wrong.

1, 2, countless or whatever number of infinite multiverses will always be able to contain the same number of elements, that is N = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...}. That's why separate multiverses are not treated as above baseline, unintuitively 2 is not bigger than 1 here. However if a space is stated to be effectively larger that's another story.

Correct, and I never said Z is actually larger than N because at the same time I literally said they are equal in size (2). It's just 2 times bigger in some sense, an analogy of bijection argument in correlation to the size difference.

they just contain different elements, the same number of elements but different. Just like the set A = {A, B, C, D} and the set B = {1, 2, 3, 4} contain different elements but have the same cardinality.

Same reply as above, being larger than N doesn't always means R being reached. Well, I don't think this opinion of mine matter since this wikia Tiering System completely ignores the skepticism of Continuum Hypothesis.

for any cardinality strictly larger than N, we can say that it is at the very least uncountable. Now 2^Aleph-0 (the cardinality of the real numbers) could be Aleph-1, Aleph-2, Aleph-22. Or in general for any n > 0 it's consistent to assume 2^Aleph-0 = Aleph-n. Also the notion that there is no cardinal between Aleph-0 and Aleph-1 does not come from the continuum hypothesis, its definition implies (in ZF) that there is no cardinal number between them. With the axiom of choice you can further expand that by proving that the class of cardinal numbers is totally ordered.

 

[GreatIskandar14045]

1, 2, countless or whatever number of infinite multiverses will always be able to contain the same number of elements, that is N = {1, 2, 3, 4, 5, ...}. That's why separate multiverses are not treated as above baseline, unintuitively 2 is not bigger than 1 here. However if a space is stated to be effectively larger that's another story.

Yeah, but you logically still need a larger space to occupy bigger 2 separated things, that's why I said it only works if you fuse them together into one. I remember once that multiple 2-As were treated as superior range before DT proposed to change it (but I don't remember what his argument was).

they just contain different elements, the same number of elements but different. Just like the set A = {A, B, C, D} and the set B = {1, 2, 3, 4} contain different elements but have the same cardinality.

I know.

for any cardinality strictly larger than N, we can say that it is at the very least uncountable. Now 2^Aleph-0 (the cardinality of the real numbers) could be Aleph-1, Aleph-2, Aleph-22. Or in general for any n > 0 it's consistent to assume 2^Aleph-0 = Aleph-n. Also the notion that there is no cardinal between Aleph-0 and Aleph-1 does not come from the continuum hypothesis, its definition implies (in ZF) that there is no cardinal number between them. With the axiom of choice you can further expand that by proving that the class of cardinal numbers is totally ordered.

I know it's not because I'm not really saying it is though? I'm saying aleph-0 and R, not aleph-0 and aleph-1. Or is there something I'm missing here?

 

[sen_]

Yeah, but you logically still need a larger space to occupy bigger 2 separated things, that's why I said it only works if you fuse them together into one. I remember once that multiple 2-As were treated as superior range before DT proposed to change it (but I don't remember what his argument was).

they would not be separate things, we interpret them as separate things but an infinite universe does not occupy more space than 2.

I know it's not because I'm not really saying it is though? I'm saying aleph-0 and R, not aleph-0 and aleph-1. Or is there something I'm missing here?

i'm pretty sure the wiki assumes gch and thus |R| = Aleph-1. Even if it didn't the requirement would just exclude the real number definition and keep it as Aleph-1.

 

[Tetrahedron1234]

Introduction​

---

As you guys know, Maou Gakuin cosmology is presently at the 2-A tier.
The good news (bad news for haters) is that we got more scans/statements/shreds of evidence for a good possibleness of a low 1-C tier (5D- possibly 6D to be precise)

Cosmology Overview​

---

Credits for the picture/cosmology go to me @Dread

This is how the cosmology looks like in The Misfit of Demon King Academy Series. You can zoom in to view bubble World and Militia World.

Currently, this is what it looks like:

• 1 realm (sanctuary) is 2-A (contains countless infinite timeline/space-time continuums)
• 1 Azure Sky = countless realms
• 1 bubble contains countless infinite black sky + Azure lane = countless 2-A
• 0 layer contains infinite bubbles Worlds
• 1-99+ layers = countless up to infinite Bubbles

There are 99+ layers in the silver sea. All layers are of the same size. Here is the thread that evaluates our cosmology for 99+ x baseline 2-A (currently one of the strongest 2-As in a wiki)

Note: For more info, here is the cosmology page

Low 1-C rationalization​

---

Spoiler: Chapter 425; Each sanctuary is a microcosm of the world

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」
"Each sanctuary is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the root of the world is fixed, the number of fire dewdrops in da ku kadate is fixed, as is the number of flowers in this sanctuary."

Spoiler: Chapter 425; Each divine domain is a microcosm of the world

「各々の神域は、世界の縮図。世界の根源の上限が決まっているように、ダ・ク・カダーテの火露の数は決まっていて、この神域の花の数も決まっています」

"Each divine domain is a microcosm of the world. Just as the upper limit of the source of the world is fixed, so is the amount of fire dew in Da Ku Kadate, and the number of flowers in this divine domain."

Every sanctuary (realm) is just a microcosm of the bubble. And microcosm is microscopic, miniature, a copy of a larger place, a small unit. So that world is very limited by a bubble and treated only as subsets of it, and make bubble is infinitely greater in all parts of the universes (sanctuary) because universes are only a small unit in the infinite bubble. It also means every sanctuary has the same, similar structure.

Spoiler: Chapter 422; Azure Sky Arc

ミーシャが目の前を指さす。

　鮮やかな蒼穹に星のように散りばめられているのは、黄金の火山や白色の湖、いばらの大地、車輪のような街など、色とりどりの様々な風景だ。

「ここが神々の蒼穹。見えている風景は、どれも神域」

　エンネスオーネの芽宮神都や、ナフタの限局世界と同じものだ。

　確かに、どれもこれも、凄まじい魔力を発している。

Misha points out in front of him.

　Scattered like stars across the brilliant azure sky are a variety of colorful landscapes, including golden volcanoes, white lakes, thorny lands, and wheel-like cities.

"This is the azure sky of the gods. Every landscape you see is a divine realm."

　It is the same as the budding divine city of Ennesione and the limited world of Nafta.

　Indeed, all of them emit tremendous magical power.

The future world is also a sanctuary. There are countless realms, but the black sky itself is infinite in size and is not bound by the real world.

There is nothing in-between countable infinity and uncountable infinity, so something that is stated to be bigger than the former would result in the latter by necessity. This applies to Maou Gakuin's case, as Kandaquizorte (a 2-A structure) was stated to be small compared to the Bubble.

In math terms​

---

Kandaquizorte (sanctuary) <<<<<<<<<< 1 bubble and there are Infinite bubbles = 1 layer

microcosm statement for the bubble = 5D

Spoiler: Chapter 565

In the Silver Water Holy Sea, 14,000 years ago. Before the God of Creation Militia was born, the name of that bubble world was Elenesia. That is, there is a discrepancy in time between the Silver Sea and the small world. From the perspective of the Militia World, it was roughly more than 700 million years ago--

Spoiler: chapter 575

"Even so, the Militia World was created 700 million years ago, right?" "In the Silver Water Holy Sea, it is only about 14,000 years old." A questioning look appeared on Sasha. Then Misha explained. "Luna fell into the Elenesia World 14,000 years ago." "...Oh, I see, that's right... Huh? But I was certain that the Militia World is 700 million years old since its creation...?" "Perhaps time is out of sync." "...Well, for example, when a day passes in the 7th of Elenesia, a year or even longer passes in the Militia World?" "Simply put, yes. However, I haven't been able to confirm any discrepancy in time between the small worlds we have visited so far and the Militia World. One second here in the 7th of Elenesia is exactly the same as one second in the Militia World." Sasha looked more and more puzzled. "Then, what do you mean?" "A discrepancy in time somehow occurred once. And now, it's back to normal, I guess." For example, if nearly 700 million years have passed only in the Militia World, while time has stopped in this Silver Sea, it would make sense. It's not certain if the Militia World accelerated or if the other small worlds stopped.

Spoiler: Chapter 676

The silver water sacred sea is wide. 　It is endlessly vast. 　Even with her God's eye, which is well penetrated throughout her own world, she is unable to predict the whole picture. Its endlessness felt to her like a distance to peace. 　No matter how much we seek peace, we will never get there. This silver sea is so endless that it seems that way.

Spoiler: Chapter 477

The gears of the upper limits begin to turn. Limits are raised by the gears, and thou and I are separated by a dimension of power. 　Eques tries to crush me with a force that seems to exceed the upper limits of order.

The silver sea's time flow is independent of the bubbles', Therefore the Silver Sea is a separate bigger (extradimensional space) space-time continuum. Elensia can view a complete bubble world (5D) but she cannot perceive the end of the silver sea and perceives it as endless even while being able to see an Infinitely large 5D space. The bubbles are infinitely sized 5D already. Bubble worlds can't perceive the silver sea. Also, an additional note is that they can't even get out of bubbles Worlds without a travelling aka usage of ships. And those ships are created by chief gods. Chief gods transcend the bubble worlds. The world's reality is set by the upper limits of the order. Birth of Eques (chief God) in Militia World (5D) stated to surpass that set limits. Later, that world sinks into layer 1. Exceed means “transcend” in that context, and in Wiki, we always treat those two terms as the same.

Small info: Chief Gods are already accepted as higher dimensional existence in the wiki.
The layers of hax will still remain the same, as a single silver bubble would be Low 1-C. But Ano's true key won't have the layers.

Conclusion​

---

This means, there is no object being larger than the 2-A structure while still remaining 2-A yourself

Also, another note: This does not scale to the whole Silver Sea, only to Silver bubbles being 6D. So Anos will still have 99+ layers of hax.
The cosmology is still infinitely larger, and I will do the next CRT after silver bubbles 6D is accepted.

Results​

---

Note: Bold = Staff Opinion

Agree: 0 (0:20) @Gasfo @Ubdon (with 5D), @Wagy, @sen_ @Ottavio_Merluzzo, @Yohata, @Satoshi23, @Diablo_, @Accelerator, @GustiTalk12, @Tatsumi504 (with 5D), @Rendynoc0unter, @Shadow_Somnius, @Overlord_THE_END (with 5D), @ZinnaiYama (with 5D), @God900, @Caduz213, @EldemadeDityjon (with 6D), @YoPercy (with 5D), @Arzzz (with 5D)
Disagree: 0 (0:0)
Neutral: 0 (0:6) @Ubdon (neutral with 6D), @Tatsumi504 (with 6D), @Overlord_THE_END (with 6D), @ZinnaiYama (with 6D), @YoPercy (with 6D), @Arzzz (with 6D)

I disagree. Nothing here implies an extradimensional space. Countless doesn't necessarily equate to something being infinite, it could mean too many to be counted.
The Silver sea's time flow being independent of the bubbles doesn't add up to your conclusion that the silver sea is a separate bigger(extradimensional space) space continuum. Just because the silver sea's time flow is independent does not necessarily mean it is a extradimensional space.
This would just really mean that the Silver Sea is a separate but really large space continuum.