Maou Gakuin no Futekigousha: Land of Traces Downgrade

[CloverDragon03]

There is no longer this 2-A, since the translation doesn't get there, but Nafta World is still 2-A.

Based on what?

 

[Dog3352]

Based on what?

Well, maybe it's just confusion here, since there's nothing that scales the Nafta World to 2-A, I think the only thing that scales to 2-A is the World of Traces, but the Nafta World is probably just being mentioned in the explanation, or perhaps the Nafta World scales to the World of Traces, meaning this downgrade would go to the Nafta World as well.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think we got confused because Naphta World was brought up. But yeah, the only thing in contention for 2-A right now is the Land of Traces, which I - as established - don't agree with scaling to 2-A. The individual traces represent 3-D snapshots of a 4-D timeline - and such 3-D snapshots can't be Low 2-C structures, which is what the Land of Traces depends on for being 2-A.

 

[Dog3352]

I think we got confused because Naphta World was brought up. But yeah, the only thing in contention for 2-A right now is the Land of Traces, which I - as established - don't agree with scaling to 2-A. The individual traces represent 3-D snapshots of a 4-D timeline - and such 3-D snapshots can't be Low 2-C structures, which is what the Land of Traces depends on for being 2-A.

Well, if the downgrade is accepted, both the Land of Traces and the Nafta World will be Low 2-C, just waiting for verse supporters before deciding my vote.

By the way, put me as Neutral

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well, if the downgrade is accepted, both the Land of Traces and the Nafta World will be Low 2-C, just waiting for verse supporters before deciding my vote.

By the way, put me as Neutral

I'll keep your stance in mind. I've only been tallying evaluating staff though, because I expect this to be controversial and would rather focus my efforts into the actual arguments then repeatedly going back and updating the tally. Since their votes are what matter most for determining the thread's outcome, I personally felt this made sense

If this thread passes, I'd be perfectly fine with a follow-up thread being made to make Anos's ultimate stuff (physically when approaching destruction, Egil Grone Angdroa, Venuzdonoa) 2-C instead of Low 2-C. I just think that with how deep we are into this thread as is, it'd be a bit of a hassle to throw that in now

 

[Dog3352]

I'll keep your stance in mind. I've only been tallying evaluating staff though, because I expect this to be controversial and would rather focus my efforts into the actual arguments then repeatedly going back and updating the tally. Since their votes are what matter most for determining the thread's outcome, I personally felt this made sense

Right.


I recommend putting this on the CRT: MEoCD, Venuzdonoa, Anos, and the World Destroying Spells will scale to 2-C due to scaling to the entire cosmology/universe, which would be 2-C after the Downgrade.

If I'm not mistaken, the rules include the main changes that will occur due to the CRT, mainly so that there are no unnecessary discussions about it later.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Right.


I recommend putting this on the CRT: MEoCD, Venuzdonoa, Anos, and the World Destroying Spells will scale to 2-C due to scaling to the entire cosmology/universe, which would be 2-C after the Downgrade.

I just edited my message because I wanted to take that into account:

If this thread passes, I'd be perfectly fine with a follow-up thread being made to make Anos's ultimate stuff (physically when approaching destruction, Egil Grone Angdroa, Venuzdonoa) 2-C instead of Low 2-C. I just think that with how deep we are into this thread as is, it'd be a bit of a hassle to throw that in now

If I'd known sooner, I would've added that in

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm neutral (tbf it not like my vote is matter though), but i can understand Clover's arguments

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

I do agree that Traces don't seem to be Low 2-C... no clue what tier they'd end up being, but the whole thing would be Low 2-C, yeah.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Low 2-C is meant for continuums, and 700 million years is still High 3-A, and not low 2-C. It has to be infinite

 

[Tatsumi504]

We're not off to any bad start, ofc the scan doesn't outright state traces are Low 2-C structures, it's not a powerscaling fantasy.

For once I'd appreciate one doing some research before making threads like or at least participate in the thread itself as it hasn't even been a week, before making threads like this.
That scan says:

1. "The entire world can fit inside the land of traces"
2. "700 million years have passed from the beginning of time and this and can hold a hundred times more with ease"

How is this supposed to prove that traces are Low 2-C structures?
A single universe in MG can be simply said to be made up of two things namely; The Mortal World and The Azure Sky (world of the gods). It is in the Azure sky that divine domains such as the Land of Traces are found.
The mortal world is basically a standard universe (3-A) and the scan goes to show us that this universe can fit into the Land of traces. The second part tells us it's not just a measure of the space alone but also covers its timeline/history/past in other words, uncountable infinite snapshots of the mortal world across time is held inside the land of traces.

In fact the scan seems to debunk itself...
It doesn't debunk itself, rightfully the OP themself admitted to being confused. "No trace can hold such an amount"... it doesn't say that, also saying no trace can hold that amount as a counter is what is contradictory here. traces are what the divine domain hold after all and this same line of thinking was brought up and corrected in the same thread, stop giving me extra work.

Moving on, Gorloanna doesn't say it's impossible for a trace to be that large, neither does he say it's impossible for the domain to contain that amount, this is why context is necessary... he says it in reference to this statement from Anos.
Anos made this statement in reference to the God's immortality, Revalschned is the god that governs the order of traces, the past itself. The first scan in that thread shows Revalschned exists/his existence is at the beginning of time thus even if one rewrites the past, the fact that he was there will never change. To destroy Revalschned, one has to destroy the Land of traces however, while new traces can be carved into the land, they can never be destroyed. To destroy it one has to create new traces that exceed the lands capacity to which Gorloanna made that statement, in other words he is saying that there is no trace in the world (mortal realm) that can be bigger than 700 million years worth of time. He also says that the Land currently holds such an amount and can contain a hundred times more with ease, in other words, it's not a cap of the domains capacity.

Timelines are supposed to extend infinitely...
It seems we can now predict the future because not only was this brought up and countered in the same thread, this first scan was added in thread solely because of this reasoning. The traces aren't for a single moment in time but for all of time which is why this note was made

It's been brought up how the timeline needs to go on infinitely to obtain Low 2-C so concerns over this have been brought up however, the timeline does continue infinitely. The way the order works is the flow and storage of traces (past) of the world from the present backwards to the the moment time began. It doesn't end at 700 million years as were another 700 million years to pass, it will be in the Land of Traces. Basically it depends on what point in time the present is at.

Time is already infinite given the keeper of time can already manipulate an infinite amount of it and the Order of traces just like the Order of the future are two Orders that just deal with an aspect of it (past and future respectively). The scan says traces flow back from the present to the beginning of time so just as the note says, it depends on what period the present is at. The order of traces is an Order governing time specifically it's past for the purpose of storing it. To claim this order is unable to fulfil the purpose for which it exists while time itself is already infinite is absurd.

Standards
Being infinite in size is indeed High 3-A however that is in relation to 3-dimensional space. A space capable of holding a full blown Low 2-C structure and not just an object with HDE that can still fit in 3D space cannot be 3-dimensional in a similar vein, 4D space times cannot be held in a High 3-A space.

While affecting a countably infinite amount of separate space-time continuums is required to obtain a 2-A rating, it is not the only way.

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)

In tier Low 1-C for example, it isn't a requirement to destroy an uncountably infinite amount of universes to obtain it. It can be obtained by doing so to a space that is capable of holding such an amount.
In previous discussions surrounding the same tier, it has been mentioned how Tier 2-A or a countably infinite amount of universes is held in a 5th dimensional axis but that 5th dimension is insignificant which is why it stays in tier 2. What I'm saying is, the capacity of the Land of Traces is equivalent to that insignificant 5D.
It's possible to obtain tier 2-A by destroying an infinite space across the insignificant 5th dimension not just the contents in it.

Spoiler: Tiering System FAQ

To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size.

---

None of the downgrades suggested here are suitable as even in the case of 2-B, the current tier isn't as a result of destroying the traces but the container itself which is infinite compared to what it holds.

Since each individual page of a book is a trace and there were at least 2 million...
Millions in the first place is plural so millions and millions is at least 4 million (not important cause it's still 2-B) that aside, the books are held in bookshelves of which there is an endless amount across the land of traces so it is still an infinite amount. (This is why one should do their research before meddling in a verse they know nothing about).

I think I understand what the original logic is. One of the characters mentions how "all Traces" go back up to the beginning of time. Meaning, each Trace contains the "memory"/"record" of everything up to a point in time, spanning over 700 million years of History.

Each trace does contain the past spanning 700 million years, but it isn't limited to that.

This would seem to satisfy the requirement for Low 2-C of having all timeline snapshots, since every moment is recorded on a Trace, that then goes back to the beginning of time. Essentially, even if the first Traces are insignificant snapshots, those of the present would be of significant size. With the Land of Traces capable of holding infinite Traces, then it would be 2-A.

Exactly

I think the problem is with the assumption that all Traces contain the entire history of the world until that specific point in which the Trace appears. Specially since the characters mention how, by traveling through the realm, they are going back in time, and particularly with Rivalschnedd explaining how each Trace is recorded in his body, suggesting each Trace is its own singular point, disqualifying it from Low 2-C (it wouldn't be tierable under our current standards for Space-Times, though depending on a future thread this could change).

It isn't an assumption, time in the divine domain is forever at the conception of time. The characters you speak off are not in the land of traces, they're in some ruins where the trace god was residing (Ruins of Ligalondrol). The trace god is the one passively reversing time and manifesting memories while asleep. Revalschned recording the traces in his body is simply HDE.
When Anos defeats the God of Traces, he leaves a single book behind, that one book still contains all the world's history.

So for now, given my understanding and current information available, I have to agree with OP that only the entire Land of Traces qualifies as a Low 2-C space. Though I am open if there's more context missing to suggest each Trace its an entire timeline onto itself.

Even going by what you've said, if the traces are the 3D snapshots, the sum total of them will be Low 2-C. The land of traces already contains a Low 2-C and has an infinite volume, so long as the domain isn't filled by the Low 2-C snapshots, it's infinite size suggests it can contain more. The thread never actually counted each trace as Low 2-C, that's just Clover's misconception.
Looking at Anos destroying the domain, his 4th step destroys all traces in the domain (Low 2-C) but the domain simply turns that destruction into a trace itself in other words, Anos has fully destroyed a Low 2-C structure but a new timeline which records the destruction of 700 million years of history is created. Going by our standards, the record of the destruction of the past is 2-C (Low 1-C if you account for a new overarching timeline capable of going back to the previous one). The point is the Land of traces contained all snapshots for a sum total of Low 2-C, a new timeline recording the destruction of the previous one is generated (2-C possibly Low 1-C) and both were stored inside the same books the land of traces never once filling it and we get confirmation that the lands capacity is infinite so there's zero grounds to say it can't hold an infinite amount of timelines.

To recap, steps 1-4 destroyed an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots of universal space (Low 2-C). A new history is then created and stored in the same books. This history is now a countably infinite amount of snapshots of Low 2-C structures no longer standard universal space and the capacity of the land of traces that is infinite wasn't filled not to even mention being surpassed. Anos power is increasing with every step he takes, step 1-4 destroyed the 700 million years of history, step 5 destroyed the new history of the previous one, step 6 skipped destroying any new history that can emerge and directly surpassed the domains capacity, step 7 would've destroyed the entire multiverse that is a single universe 1000 times over and still have enough power left over.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Low 2-C is meant for continuums, and 700 million years is still High 3-A, and not low 2-C. It has to be infinite

700 million years still hold an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots of 3-A space which is the requirement for Low 2-C but this is irrelevant as the continuum is infinite and it is held inside it.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Disagree with OP FRA.

 

[Godsatoshi23]

I agree with @Tatsumi504. So, I disagree with the OP

 

[CloverDragon03]

We're not off to any bad start, ofc the scan doesn't outright state traces are Low 2-C structures, it's not a powerscaling fantasy.

For once I'd appreciate one doing some research before making threads like or at least participate in the thread itself as it hasn't even been a week, before making threads like this.
That scan says:

1. "The entire world can fit inside the land of traces"
2. "700 million years have passed from the beginning of time and this and can hold a hundred times more with ease"

I stumbled across the thread the other day and thought the 2-A rating was unjustifiably accepted. Not my fault it was closed before I took notice

Also neither of those things are talking about individual traces, but the Land of Traces as a whole. Not to mention the complete strawman by claiming I expected traces to be outright called Low 2-C structures. I'd call all this a pretty bad start, yes.

Also, you talking about a "bad start" and such tells me you were tipped off about an earlier draft of my CRT. Curious...

How is this supposed to prove that traces are Low 2-C structures?
A single universe in MG can be simply said to be made up of two things namely; The Mortal World and The Azure Sky (world of the gods). It is in the Azure sky that divine domains such as the Land of Traces are found.
The mortal world is basically a standard universe (3-A) and the scan goes to show us that this universe can fit into the Land of traces. The second part tells us it's not just a measure of the space alone but also covers its timeline/history/past in other words, uncountable infinite snapshots of the mortal world across time is held inside the land of traces.

Except the scan talks about the Land of Traces, not individual traces...

A lot of this is also just pure conjecture without anything to back it up anyway

In fact the scan seems to debunk itself...
It doesn't debunk itself, rightfully the OP themself admitted to being confused. "No trace can hold such an amount"... it doesn't say that, also saying no trace can hold that amount as a counter is what is contradictory here. traces are what the divine domain hold after all and this same line of thinking was brought up and corrected in the same thread, stop giving me extra work.


Moving on, Gorloanna doesn't say it's impossible for a trace to be that large, neither does he say it's impossible for the domain to contain that amount, this is why context is necessary... he says it in reference to this statement from Anos.
Anos made this statement in reference to the God's immortality, Revalschned is the god that governs the order of traces, the past itself. The first scan in that thread shows Revalschned exists/his existence is at the beginning of time thus even if one rewrites the past, the fact that he was there will never change. To destroy Revalschned, one has to destroy the Land of traces however, while new traces can be carved into the land, they can never be destroyed. To destroy it one has to create new traces that exceed the lands capacity to which Gorloanna made that statement, in other words he is saying that there is no trace in the world (mortal realm) that can be bigger than 700 million years worth of time. He also says that the Land currently holds such an amount and can contain a hundred times more with ease, in other words, it's not a cap of the domains capacity.

"It doesn't say that no trace can hold such an amount"

The scan in question

Also you're basically supporting what I'm saying. The Land of Traces has been stated to have a capacity that would make it a Low 2-C structure. This is also regarded as something a trace can't match up to. Sounds self-explanatory. And once again, a lot of this is stuff that's not even relevant in an attempt to paint these statements in some new context that's made to support the upgrade

Lastly, what I was confused about was the "timeline being supposed to extend infinitely" part, so your gotcha attempt falls flat

Timelines are supposed to extend infinitely...
It seems we can now predict the future because not only was this brought up and countered in the same thread, this first scan was added in thread solely because of this reasoning. The traces aren't for a single moment in time but for all of time which is why this note was made

Time is already infinite given the keeper of time can already manipulate an infinite amount of it and the Order of traces just like the Order of the future are two Orders that just deal with an aspect of it (past and future respectively). The scan says traces flow back from the present to the beginning of time so just as the note says, it depends on what period the present is at. The order of traces is an Order governing time specifically it's past for the purpose of storing it. To claim this order is unable to fulfil the purpose for which it exists while time itself is already infinite is absurd.

Gonna also leave the note here since quoting stuff that's boxed in like that just doesn't work:

It's been brought up how the timeline needs to go on infinitely to obtain Low 2-C so concerns over this have been brought up however, the timeline does continue infinitely. The way the order works is the flow and storage of traces (past) of the world from the present backwards to the the moment time began. It doesn't end at 700 million years as were another 700 million years to pass, it will be in the Land of Traces. Basically it depends on what point in time the present is at.

As for how this works... First off, the lack of scans is concerning. Second, this is all just supporting the Land of Traces being Low 2-C, not traces themselves

Standards
Being infinite in size is indeed High 3-A however that is in relation to 3-dimensional space. A space capable of holding a full blown Low 2-C structure and not just an object with HDE that can still fit in 3D space cannot be 3-dimensional in a similar vein, 4D space times cannot be held in a High 3-A space.

While affecting a countably infinite amount of separate space-time continuums is required to obtain a 2-A rating, it is not the only way.

In tier Low 1-C for example, it isn't a requirement to destroy an uncountably infinite amount of universes to obtain it. It can be obtained by doing so to a space that is capable of holding such an amount.
In previous discussions surrounding the same tier, it has been mentioned how Tier 2-A or a countably infinite amount of universes is held in a 5th dimensional axis but that 5th dimension is insignificant which is why it stays in tier 2. What I'm saying is, the capacity of the Land of Traces is equivalent to that insignificant 5D.
It's possible to obtain tier 2-A by destroying an infinite space across the insignificant 5th dimension not just the contents in it.

Spoiler: Tiering System FAQ

To elaborate, a structure larger than 2-A meets the requirements for qualitative superiority over them if it either explicitly mentions an uncountably infinite number of universes or has portrayals/statements of being bigger in size than 2-A structures to the point that even infinite multipliers on top of the size of that structure are of no relevance to it. Multiversal structures past Low 2-C frequently have a distance of unknown length along a 5th dimensional axis separating them. That isn't automatically Low 1-C, as for Low 1-C the distance must be known to be of non-insignificant size.

---

I don't need any reminders on our standards, I know how they work. The problem is that there is now Low 2-C structure to be found here for the Land of Traces to be infinite in relation to

Since each individual page of a book is a trace and there were at least 2 million...
Millions in the first place is plural so millions and millions is at least 4 million (not important cause it's still 2-B) that aside, the books are held in bookshelves of which there is an endless amount across the land of traces so it is still an infinite amount. (This is why one should do their research before meddling in a verse they know nothing about).

Not even relevant to the OP because I removed that part from my initial draft. This reads like you were tipped off about the draft and didn't account for the fact that I changed the OP later.

Each trace does contain the past spanning 700 million years, but it isn't limited to that.

Exactly

You know what an infinite number of 3-D snapshots is? It's not Low 2-C, it's High 3-A. It needs to be an uncountably infinite number of them, which is something that doesn't seem to be provable with what's been provided.

Also, the whole thing of "each trace contains the past spanning 700 million years" has no scan behind it, so I'm taking that with a grain of salt

It isn't an assumption, time in the divine domain is forever at the conception of time. The characters you speak off are not in the land of traces, they're in some ruins where the trace god was residing (Ruins of Ligalondrol). The trace god is the one passively reversing time and manifesting memories while asleep. Revalschned recording the traces in his body is simply HDE.
When Anos defeats the God of Traces, he leaves a single book behind, that one book still contains all the world's history.

I don't see what any of this is supposed to prove. Traces being 3-D snapshots still fits into all this nonsense

Even going by what you've said, if the traces are the 3D snapshots, the sum total of them will be Low 2-C. The land of traces already contains a Low 2-C and has an infinite volume, so long as the domain isn't filled by the Low 2-C snapshots, it's infinite size suggests it can contain more. The thread never actually counted each trace as Low 2-C, that's just Clover's misconception.
Looking at Anos destroying the domain, his 4th step destroys all traces in the domain (Low 2-C) but the domain simply turns that destruction into a trace itself in other words, Anos has fully destroyed a Low 2-C structure but a new timeline which records the destruction of 700 million years of history is created. Going by our standards, the record of the destruction of the past is 2-C (Low 1-C if you account for a new overarching timeline capable of going back to the previous one). The point is the Land of traces contained all snapshots for a sum total of Low 2-C, a new timeline recording the destruction of the previous one is generated (2-C possibly Low 1-C) and both were stored inside the same books the land of traces never once filling it and we get confirmation that the lands capacity is infinite so there's zero grounds to say it can't hold an infinite amount of timelines.

Wrong, the sum total of the 3-D snapshots will be High 3-A since we don't have an uncountably infinite number of them. And being infinite in size relative to an infinite 3-D space is... Low 2-C. Not to mention, I'm not even sure if it's ever noted that the Land of Traces is infinite relative to the sum total of all these traces, just infinite in relation to a finite number of them. Frankly, I believe Low 2-C for the Land of Traces is even more solidified than before

Also, you mean to tell me your past thread went on about how traces are Low 2-C structures only for you to turn around and say "that's actually a misconception"? No, not buying into that one.

So yeah, suffice it to say I'm not at all convinced by this rebuttal. The counterarguments boil down to strawmans, applying statements about the Land of Traces to traces themselves, claims with no scans, and misrepresenting our standards (infinite 3-D snapshots isn't Low 2-C unless it's uncountably infinite, for instance). I still firmly believe this downgrade is warranted.

And as an aside, I'm not interested in continuing to go into long walls of texts about this, so if it's gonna remain this way I'm probably gonna just leave it at this - not to mention I believe my stance is as clear as can be already

 

[Dog3352]

Are the waters the flow of time or are they records (or both)?

 

[Tatsumi504]

I stumbled across the thread the other day and thought the 2-A rating was unjustifiably accepted. Not my fault it was closed before I took notice

Also neither of those things are talking about individual traces, but the Land of Traces as a whole. Not to mention the complete strawman by claiming I expected traces to be outright called Low 2-C structures. I'd call all this a pretty bad start, yes.

I've been to your rodeo's before. Just saying something is a bad start from your confusion is inappropriate, that part was meant to be a joke, forgot to strikethrough it.
I never said anything about individual traces in the thread, it is once again your own confusion at play. The whole reasoning was contains Low 2-C= 4D space, Infinite 4D space with Low 2-C structure in it= 2-A.

Also, you talking about a "bad start" and such tells me you were tipped off about an earlier draft of my CRT. Curious...

You're the one who sent a ss of your draft. I prepared a response anticipating I won't be available to counter it cause of some IRL matters. In the end you posted this around midnight for me so that was still devastating

Except the scan talks about the Land of Traces, not individual traces...

A lot of this is also just pure conjecture without anything to back it up anyway

It isn't conjecture but fact.

"It doesn't say that no trace can hold such an amount"

The scan in question

Also you're basically supporting what I'm saying. The Land of Traces has been stated to have a capacity that would make it a Low 2-C structure. This is also regarded as something a trace can't match up to. Sounds self-explanatory. And once again, a lot of this is stuff that's not even relevant in an attempt to paint these statements in some new context that's made to support the upgrade

Bruh, let me kill your reasoning in one go... traces are not a container, they're what is being contained. You made no attempt to counter what I said providing the context.

Lastly, what I was confused about was the "timeline being supposed to extend infinitely" part, so your gotcha attempt falls flat

What "gotcha"? You really have to stop that method of speaking. I'm providing context on a given statement, thinking I'm trying to one up you or make you look stupid is insulting to me as a person.

Gonna also leave the note here since quoting stuff that's boxed in like that just doesn't work:


As for how this works... First off, the lack of scans is concerning. Second, this is all just supporting the Land of Traces being Low 2-C, not traces themselves

Once again, that's your confusion at play. I never made the argument that each trace is Low 2-C. The sum total of traces is what's Low 2-C'

I don't need any reminders on our standards, I know how they work. The problem is that there is now Low 2-C structure to be found here for the Land of Traces to be infinite in relation to

Not even relevant to the OP because I removed that part from my initial draft. This reads like you were tipped off about the draft and didn't account for the fact that I changed the OP later.

See above, you made your sandbox public

You know what an infinite number of 3-D snapshots is? It's not Low 2-C, it's High 3-A. It needs to be an uncountably infinite number of them, which is something that doesn't seem to be provable with what's been provided.

It is infinite. The mortal realm in a Low 2-C sense is in the Land of traces

Also, the whole thing of "each trace contains the past spanning 700 million years" has no scan behind it, so I'm taking that with a grain of salt

I never said that originally, I was going along with your draft.

I don't see what any of this is supposed to prove. Traces being 3-D snapshots still fits into all this nonsense

"Nonsense" gotcha. P.S, i was reply to Lephyr not you.

Wrong, the sum total of the 3-D snapshots will be High 3-A since we don't have an uncountably infinite number of them. And being infinite in size relative to an infinite 3-D space is... Low 2-C. Not to mention, I'm not even sure if it's ever noted that the Land of Traces is infinite relative to the sum total of all these traces, just infinite in relation to a finite number of them. Frankly, I believe Low 2-C for the Land of Traces is even more solidified than before

Once again, the it's uncountably infinite. I have showed time itself is infinite and the timeline of the mortal world is what is in the land of traces. The mechanics of the other simply manifest from the present to the beginning of time.

Also, you mean to tell me your past thread went on about how traces are Low 2-C structures only for you to turn around and say "that's actually a misconception"? No, not buying into that one.

If you can quote anywhere in my thread where I said "Each trace is a Low 2-C structure", I'll stop scaling MG as a whole. My thread only ever treated all traces as Low 2-C, I never specified them in singular but plural. Stop putting words in my mouth.

So yeah, suffice it to say I'm not at all convinced by this rebuttal. The counterarguments boil down to strawmans, applying statements about the Land of Traces to traces themselves, claims with no scans, and misrepresenting our standards (infinite 3-D snapshots isn't Low 2-C unless it's uncountably infinite, for instance). I still firmly believe this downgrade is warranted.

I couldn't care about you being convinced. "Strawmans", where? "Claims with no scans", where? "Misrepresenting standards" I already showed time is infinite which is uncountably infinite snapshots. If you're unable to produce a substantial rebuttal to what was stated then say so.

And as an aside, I'm not interested in continuing to go into long walls of texts about this, so if it's gonna remain this way I'm probably gonna just leave it at this - not to mention I believe my stance is as clear as can be already

 

[PrinceofPein]

700 million years still hold an uncountably infinite amount of snapshots of 3-A space which is the requirement for Low 2-C but this is irrelevant as the continuum is infinite and it is held inside it.

No actually, we do not count it as that.
It has to be infinite years, not the amount if snapshot held, with your logic, even a minute destroyed is low 2-C, even a second destroyed is low 2-C, as they all hold uncountable infinite snapshots.
Destroying anything less than infinite years worth of time is simply High 3-A.

 

[Ruler_Star_Kuma]

There's no way the whole 'destroying the universe' thing is being taken as just how universe is normally, yeah...?

Edit: Thought we were past this but guess not.

 

[Tatsumi504]

No actually, we do not count it as that.
It has to be infinite years, not the amount if snapshot held, with your logic, even a minute destroyed is low 2-C, even a second destroyed is low 2-C, as they all hold uncountable infinite snapshots.
Destroying anything less than infinite years worth of time is simply High 3-A.

Pain, I know that but my point is that it doesn't matter. All of time is included in this or rather time is infinite and what the realm holds is the timeline of the mortal world in it's entirety. The past is the future and the future the past. The order simply operates on the past as order is limited to what it governs so it only manifests records of the current 700 million years as the future is out of it's jurisdiction. If you were to go to the end of time and enter the land of traces, all of time will be recorded inside it, in the same manner if you enter the Land of traces at the 1, 1000, 1000000 etc years of the universe, all you will be met with is 1, 1000, 1000000 years of history.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I've been to your rodeo's before. Just saying something is a bad start from your confusion is inappropriate, that part was meant to be a joke, forgot to strikethrough it.
I never said anything about individual traces in the thread, it is once again your own confusion at play. The whole reasoning was contains Low 2-C= 4D space, Infinite 4D space with Low 2-C structure in it= 2-A.

No, that is absolutely what was said in your initial thread, and now you're saying otherwise. At the absolute best, it was not communicated properly. Not that it matters when neither approach supports your argument anyway

You're the one who sent a ss of your draft. I prepared a response anticipating I won't be available to counter it cause of some IRL matters. In the end you posted this around midnight for me so that was still devastating

Shame on me for not realizing you were in that server ig

It isn't conjecture but fact.

I mean if you wanna say as much I'm not gonna stop you, but the lack of anything to back this is telling

Bruh, let me kill your reasoning in one go... traces are not a container, they're what is being contained. You made no attempt to counter what I said providing the context.

All this requires is a change in semantics. That being, traces simply cannot be as large as time periods spanning 700 million years a hundred times over. That contradicts them allegedly being Low 2-C structures (even though that's supposedly not what you're actually arguing)

What "gotcha"? You really have to stop that method of speaking. I'm providing context on a given statement, thinking I'm trying to one up you or make you look stupid is insulting to me as a person.

Your manner of speaking is one I'm not fond of I'm bringing that to light. Bringing up that I admitted to being confused doesn't work at all when it was about something unrelated to the point you brought it up for

Once again, that's your confusion at play. I never made the argument that each trace is Low 2-C. The sum total of traces is what's Low 2-C'

The sum total is High 3-A, not Low 2-C. Some vague notation of infinite isn't the same as uncountably infinite. A series of infinite 3-D things isn't Low 2-C unless it's uncountably so

It is infinite. The mortal realm in a Low 2-C sense is in the Land of traces

Okay, but how? If it's just comprised of the 3-D snapshots, I don't see where Low 2-C comes from. It's not as if what's contained is the mortal realm in its entirety. It's records of it

Once again, the it's uncountably infinite. I have showed time itself is infinite and the timeline of the mortal world is what is in the land of traces. The mechanics of the other simply manifest from the present to the beginning of time.

Same argument, and I'd also like to note, I don't believe the Land of Traces is ever actually displayed as infinite compared to the entire infinite number of traces. All its descriptions of being endless are relative to finite things (like a finite number of traces), so this wouldn't really work anyway.

If you can quote anywhere in my thread where I said "Each trace is a Low 2-C structure", I'll stop scaling MG as a whole. My thread only ever treated all traces as Low 2-C, I never specified them in singular but plural. Stop putting words in my mouth.

From your thread:

Traces hence fit the criteria of a standard 4 dimensional universal model making them Universe+/Low 2-C however, the Land of Traces aren't just the traces alone, it's a vessel of infinite size for storing/containing them.

Again, even if this wasn't your intention, this was communicated very poorly and reads as proposing that the individual traces are Low 2-C

"Strawmans", where? "Claims with no scans", where? "Misrepresenting standards" I already showed time is infinite which is uncountably infinite snapshots. If you're unable to produce a substantial rebuttal to what was stated then say so.

The strawman where you claimed I expected traces to explicitly be called Low 2-C structures...

The claims with no scans like "it's not conjecture but fact" or, even before that response, stuff like "Each trace does contain the past spanning 700 million years, but it isn't limited to that."

The "misrepresenting standards" like making the jump from infinite to uncountably infinite, when the Land of Traces is viewing 3-D snapshots rather than being infinite relative to a 4-D structure.

I hope from this that you don't mistake my unwillingness to respond as an inability to provide a rebuttal. I just don't like text wall debates like this. They're a chore, they're tiring, and they completely lack the engaging back and forth aspect that I like with debates that have shorter responses.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I will say it now, a universe in MG being a macrocosm of multiple dimensions/ space times is a well established fact, as such there was no need for me to pander to the absurdity of this thread to prove that.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I will say it now, a universe in MG being a macrocosm of multiple dimensions/ space times is a well established fact, as such there was no need for me to pander to the absurdity of this thread to prove that.

I mean I'd like some elaboration rather than just being told "this is a fact, deal with it." Really not welcoming at all...

That aside, I don't mind that argument with the appropriate evidence. I talked with Dog about that earlier in the thread (from what he said, 2-C seems viable, and I'd even encourage making a thread about that since before the 2-A upgrade, it was just Low 2-C). I just don't think it's 2-A

 

[Tatsumi504]

No, that is absolutely what was said in your initial thread, and now you're saying otherwise. At the absolute best, it was not communicated properly. Not that it matters when neither approach supports your argument anyway

Then quote it let us see

I mean if you wanna say as much I'm not gonna stop you, but the lack of anything to back this is telling

I will say it now, a universe in MG being a macrocosm of multiple dimensions/ space times is a well established fact, as such there was no need for me to pander to the absurdity of this thread to prove that.

All this requires is a change in semantics. That being, traces simply cannot be as large as time periods spanning 700 million years a hundred times over. That contradicts them allegedly being Low 2-C structures (even though that's supposedly not what you're actually arguing

Emphasis on containing 70 billion years of history with ease already hard counters this especially when they were talking about how to fill the Land of Traces and exceed its capacity. If only 1000 years had passed and this statement was made, you will be limiting its capacity to only 100000 years but here we are at 700 million.

Your manner of speaking is one I'm not fond of I'm bringing that to light. Bringing up that I admitted to being confused doesn't work at all when it was about something unrelated to the point you brought it up for

Still doesn't warrant saying I'm trying to one up you. You were the one who admitted to being confused, me bringing tat up was simply my way of saying your confusion was justified.

The sum total is High 3-A, not Low 2-C. Some vague notation of infinite isn't the same as uncountably infinite. A series of infinite 3-D things isn't Low 2-C unless it's uncountably so

Okay, but how? If it's just comprised of the 3-D snapshots, I don't see where Low 2-C comes from. It's not as if what's contained is the mortal realm in its entirety. It's records of it

Time is infinite, all of the mortal world's time is contained in the divine domain

Pain, I know that but my point is that it doesn't matter. All of time is included in this or rather time is infinite and what the realm holds is the timeline of the mortal world in it's entirety. The past is the future and the future the past. The order simply operates on the past as order is limited to what it governs so it only manifests records of the current 700 million years as the future is out of it's jurisdiction. If you were to go to the end of time and enter the land of traces, all of time will be recorded inside it, in the same manner if you enter the Land of traces at the 1, 1000, 1000000 etc years of the universe, all you will be met with is 1, 1000, 1000000 years of history.

From your thread:

Again, even if this wasn't your intention, this was communicated very poorly and reads as proposing that the individual traces are Low 2-C

I prefaced the thread by saying something along the lines of "standard 3-A universe+ it's timeline". "Traces" is already a term being used both in the singular and plural and my use of it was to indicate plurality. There was absolutely no other way of indicating I wasn't talking about individual traces. In that regard you could have directed questions to anyone of our knowledgeable members or met me to confirm.
Frankly, you put the idea in my head that the traces can each be Low 2-C with this thread and I'm seeing a way of doing it the the book of traces.

The strawman where you claimed I expected traces to explicitly be called Low 2-C structures...

How is that a strawman? It's inconsequential to my main point. I didn't "claim", you genuinely thought I was referring to individual traces as Low 2-C.

The claims with no scans like "it's not conjecture but fact"

That was for the established fact that a single universe is a macrocosm

or, even before that response, stuff like "Each trace does contain the past spanning 700 million years, but it isn't limited to that."

That was for the book the God of traces left behind after he was destroyed. The past is still inside it.

The "misrepresenting standards" like making the jump from infinite to uncountably infinite, when the Land of Traces is viewing 3-D snapshots rather than being infinite relative to a 4-D structure.

It's being infinite relative to uncountable infinite snapshots after all, it contains the sum of it and it's size is infinite. It also isn't filled by the sum total of traces.

I hope from this that you don't mistake my unwillingness to respond as an inability to provide a rebuttal. I just don't like text wall debates like this. They're a chore, they're tiring, and they completely lack the engaging back and forth aspect that I like with debates that have shorter responses.

Don't worry, I won't. You've made your point clear and I'll do so with mine.
If you don't want text walls then why are you asking for scans indicating the universe is a macrocosm? That itself is a text wall so do you prefer I send it here or dm's?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Don't worry, I won't. You've made your point clear and I'll do so with mine.
If you don't want text walls then why are you asking for scans indicating the universe is a macrocosm? That itself is a text wall so do you prefer I send it here or dm's?

I'll focus on this since as you said, we've made our points clear.

DMs could work, so I could at least get an idea. What I was thinking is that regardless of the outcome of this thread, a separate thread detailing how the universe is a macrocosm would 100% be warranted (either way it'd be an upgrade, either from Low 2-C to 2-C or from 2-A to a higher degree of 2-A, so it'd be a revision regardless). Hell, you could maybe even make a cosmology blog if you wanna do that.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I'm going to wait for Dereck to pop in before deciding on anything.

 

[Georredannea15]

I've been to your rodeo's before. Just saying something is a bad start from your confusion is inappropriate, that part was meant to be a joke, forgot to strikethrough it.
I never said anything about individual traces in the thread, it is once again your own confusion at play. The whole reasoning was contains Low 2-C= 4D space, Infinite 4D space with Low 2-C structure in it= 2-A.

Actually, we don't give it directly 2-A anymore (especially after what the 2 big guys said) but it was accepted in the previous revision. So... IDK. It is not very relevant to the OP at this moment, but as I mentioned in the previous revision, I think this detail is important

 

[PrinceofPein]

Pain, I know that but my point is that it doesn't matter. All of time is included in this or rather time is infinite and what the realm holds is the timeline of the mortal world in it's entirety. The past is the future and the future the past. The order simply operates on the past as order is limited to what it governs so it only manifests records of the current 700 million years as the future is out of it's jurisdiction. If you were to go to the end of time and enter the land of traces, all of time will be recorded inside it, in the same manner if you enter the Land of traces at the 1, 1000, 1000000 etc years of the universe, all you will be met with is 1, 1000, 1000000 years of history.

So let me guess, assumptions on what never happened? That's called head cannon. If we were told it contains 700 million years and we were told it can contain a multiple more (70 iirc). That's not infinite. Hence still High 3A

 

[Berga14]

I'm going to wait for Dereck to pop in before deciding on anything.

I Just want to add a thing:

This is the scan that gives anos 2A by the 7 steps

"The traces of all living creatures were crushed.... " so even if every book was a 4D structures it will not be low 2C. The living creatures that lived in 700 million years aren't a universal model.
It also seams that traces are divided by arguments and each of them just talk about a relative small piece of the mortal world's past.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I Just want to add a thing:

This is the scan that gives anos 2A by the 7 steps

"The traces of all living creatures were crushed.... " so even if every book was a 4D structures it will not be low 2C. The living creatures that lived in 700 million years aren't a universal model.
It also seams that traces are divided by arguments and each of them just talk about a relative small piece of the mortal world's past.

So this seems to be only talking about mortal worlds past with living creatures?

On my third step, the land shook, and the scattered pages burst. The dome vanished, and the sky appeared, followed by the sun, the moon, and the stars. Their shadows all disappeared under my step, banished beyond the skies.

 

[Tatsumi504]

So let me guess, assumptions on what never happened? That's called head cannon. If we were told it contains 700 million years and we were told it can contain a multiple more (70 iirc). That's not infinite. Hence still High 3A

Assumptions? The scan were it says the traces are flowing back to the beginning of time is an assumption? Again it says 700 million years and can hold a 100x more with ease. You are yet to explain how that implies a cap on its capacity

 

[Berga14]

So this seems to be only talking about mortal worlds past with living creatures only?

It seems that there are traces containg different things, like a big library divided by genres. But 700 million years of animals isn't low2c.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Actually, we don't give it directly 2-A anymore (especially after what the 2 big guys said) but it was accepted in the previous revision.

Yes, Geor is right... I think it's time to write this somewhere in the tiering system FAQ.
[https://vsbattles.com/threads/can-y...ve-to-multiple-4-d-object.153999/post-5979358]

Traces hence fit the criteria of a standard 4 dimensional universal model making them Universe+/Low 2-C however, the Land of Traces aren't just the traces alone, it's a vessel of infinite size for storing/containing them.
A space capable of containing a Universe+ sized model in addition to spanning an infinite distance should be Multiverse+/2-A in size. The Land of Traces is thus a Multiverse+ sized structure.

So given the context of the previous thread this should be "likely 2A" at best in my opinion. (I'm just saying this based on the proposals in the previous thread and my own knowledge. I haven't skimmed any scans, arguments or counter arguments on both threads)

 

[Tatsumi504]

So let me guess, assumptions on what never happened? That's called head cannon. If we were told it contains 700 million years and we were told it can contain a multiple more (70 iirc). That's not infinite. Hence still High 3A

Assumptions? The scan were it says the traces are flowing back to the beginning of time is an assumption? Again it says 700 million years and can hold a 100x more with ease. You are yet to prove how that implies a cap on its capacity

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

It seems that there are traces containg different things, like a big library divided by genres.

Scan states the entire world can fit inside it. That world is already stated to be infinite in size. Nothing states anything about only a few things being able to fit inside the book. Even EGA, which can destroy universes with ease, is already stored inside the book easily.

But 700 million years of animals isn't low2c.

None of the scans state anything you are claiming. No one has even said anything about the 700 million animals' history being L2-C. Your scan shows Tensura stuff, not anything related to Maou Gakuin.

 

[Berga14]

Tensura stuff

Lol, imugr decided to troll

 

[Georredannea15]

Yes, Geor is right... I think it's time to write this somewhere in the tiering system FAQ.
[https://vsbattles.com/threads/can-y...ve-to-multiple-4-d-object.153999/post-5979358]

So given the context of the previous thread this should be "likely 2A" at best in my opinion. (I'm just saying this based on the proposals in the previous thread and my own knowledge. I haven't skimmed any scans, arguments or counter arguments on both threads)

Well, yes. In fact, such a structure would have to be infinite in the first place, so the extra statement that say "infinite" doesn't really mean anything, for any 2-A scale you need a context that the difference between structures and space is infinite and structures can never encompass space, or that space can contain infinite numbers of universal structures. If I'm going to speak outside the MGK, these are the things we are doing now for other verses

 

[Georredannea15]

Assumptions? The scan were it says the traces are flowing back to the beginning of time is an assumption? Again it says 700 million years and can hold a 100x more with ease. You are yet to prove how that implies a cap on its capacity

The problem is not whether it is limited or not, the problem is whether it is infinite or not, if it is not infinite, it would only be a 3-D part of an infinite Low 2-C/4-D timeline.

That's what Pein meant.(I guess)

 

[Tatsumi504]

The problem is not whether it is limited or not, the problem is whether it is infinite or not, if it is not infinite, it would only be a 3-D part of an infinite Low 2-C/4-D timeline.

That's what Pein meant.(I guess)

Time is already infinite given the keeper of time can already manipulate an infinite amount of it

How many times do I have to say it? Time is eternal. Traces, future are just an aspect of it. Time exists in the land of traces as well. At this point none of you but the OP actually read my rebuttal.

 

[Georredannea15]

How many times do I have to say it? Time is eternal. Traces, future are just an aspect of it. Time exists in the land of traces as well. At this point none of you but the OP actually read my rebuttal.

The problem is that you're going to say it's infinite because it's contain "the whole world". But scan says it's only contain 700 million years.

It's a direct statement that it's 700 million years.

And also.

Traces, future are just an aspect of it.

Actually, this is something that shows that these are just a 3-D pieces of Land of Traces, which is infinite. At least to me (a structure that exists in a 4-D timeline, a small piece of time, with 700 million years in it...)

Well, you can agree or disagree. This is just my opinion brother.

Also the OP has no problem with the Land of Traces being an infinite timeline, which is why the OP calls it Low 2-C.