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So we really have degenerated from "Scale mobs based on arbitrarily-chosen damage and HP values" to "Just scale everything down to the smallest chip damage to the game's final boss."
Awesome.
Awesome.
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Man, Minecraft Tiers Suck Right Now
- Thread starter Moritzva
- Start date
- 8,959
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- Thread starter
- #242
I can tell from your tone that further debate is going to be ill-spirited and aggressive, and the strawman you present shows either a purposeful disregard or lack of understanding of either Minecraft, my point, or scaling as a whole.
Can someone grab my vote count from before and update it? I'll be taking a break from this.
Can someone grab my vote count from before and update it? I'll be taking a break from this.
Bobsican
He/Him- 22,552
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Mori, CRTs aren't only decided by votes, and your arguments are losing weight, if you're not even going to bother pushing for them further I guess I can remind that if the status of this verse remains as it is it's best being removed for the most part out of not being indexable in lack of proper scaling.
Jinsye
She/Her- 10,487
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Bob you're acting like the Dragon has the only feat in the entire verse wtf
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- Thread starter
- #247
You can't just invalidate my argument and say it's "losing weight" because you disagree with it, and waiting for me to leave due to IRL commitments just to say "Quick, guys, let's delete Minecraft!" is one of the many reasons why this site has a problem with stone wall arguments.
Let me have a break, we aren't even making progress in our debate.
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I don't see why we can't scale weapons using damage values. My biggest concern now is the fact that the game doesn't have lore or any in-verse statements that we can use to perform scaling.
Yes, the verse may have progression, but it doesn't make you better, it makes you different. Sure you find inherently rarer materials later on, but some early game materials are still objectively better at dealing damage.
Also I don't like this argument about game mechanics. If a gold sword was designed to do less damage and break faster than a silver one, that's not game mechanics, that's just the property of gold.
Yes, the verse may have progression, but it doesn't make you better, it makes you different. Sure you find inherently rarer materials later on, but some early game materials are still objectively better at dealing damage.
Also I don't like this argument about game mechanics. If a gold sword was designed to do less damage and break faster than a silver one, that's not game mechanics, that's just the property of gold.
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That kind of scaling isn't allowed on this wiki
There is some lore from what I've heard
Wood<Chain<Silver<Gold<Diamond<Netherite
Gameplay doesn't always reflect lore also your scaling chain is wrong it seems
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Using damage values is very much accepted if we have reason to believe that's acceptable.
Also gold is blatantly <<<<< everything else and unless you provide me an in-universe explanation for why it is otherwise, that is just objective fact.
Also gold is blatantly <<<<< everything else and unless you provide me an in-universe explanation for why it is otherwise, that is just objective fact.
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I was under the impression that character stats and damage values were only ever used if we had reason to believe that we're canon.
i.e. they need to be proven usable, rather than being proven unusable.
i.e. they need to be proven usable, rather than being proven unusable.
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- Thread starter
- #257
Did you just call Iron, Silver, and put it below Gold..?
... Right, well, naturally I agree with Ovens. Game mechanics doesn't mean we can't use basic common sense, that a weapon that's stronger than another weapon is indeed stronger than that weapon.
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I bet Morti probably is editing his comment while type this so be aware of this
Yes because common sense and general knowledge although calling Iron Silver was a mistake
That's what I expected. I recommend you relook at the Game Mechanics page and a logic page because a weapon can't be stronger than itself.
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Wouldn't this be a more logical compromise solution?
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I think it's much more logical than the current suggestions of either scaling to everyone, or scaling to everyone except the 1 weakest enemy, and makes me much less hesitant to apply it.
Yes because common sense and general knowledge although calling Iron Silver was a mistake
Minecraft goes against the common sense in this way, by having some Gold tools weaker than Iron tools, and giving all of them an extremely short durability.
That's what I expected. I recommend you relook at the Game Mechanics page and a logic page because a weapon can't be stronger than itself.
He wasn't saying A > A. He was saying if A > B (in damage values), then A > B (in our indexing).
Yes because common sense and general knowledge although calling Iron Silver was a mistake
Minecraft goes against the common sense in this way, by having some Gold tools weaker than Iron tools, and giving all of them an extremely short durability.
That's what I expected. I recommend you relook at the Game Mechanics page and a logic page because a weapon can't be stronger than itself.
He wasn't saying A > A. He was saying if A > B (in damage values), then A > B (in our indexing).
- 8,959
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- Thread starter
- #261
... Ican't, iron is literally leagues above gold in terms of protection and strength. Have you played Minecraft, ever?
Like... It's the third best material in the game. Iron, then Diamond, then Netherrite. Seriously, do you actually know Minecraft at all? I'm not even trying to be rude but I'm actually questioning your knowledge here if you're not only making such a mistake, but doubling down on it.
And second of all, I suggest you read my post again because you clearly missed my point. If Weapon (X) is, in-game, stronger than Weapon (Y), I do not see why we shouldn't assume that yeah, Weapon (X) is stronger than Weapon (Y) without any outside evidence. That's only logical.
I'm seriously questioning if you know enough about Minecraft to really give reliable input.
Like... It's the third best material in the game. Iron, then Diamond, then Netherrite. Seriously, do you actually know Minecraft at all? I'm not even trying to be rude but I'm actually questioning your knowledge here if you're not only making such a mistake, but doubling down on it.
And second of all, I suggest you read my post again because you clearly missed my point. If Weapon (X) is, in-game, stronger than Weapon (Y), I do not see why we shouldn't assume that yeah, Weapon (X) is stronger than Weapon (Y) without any outside evidence. That's only logical.
I'm seriously questioning if you know enough about Minecraft to really give reliable input.
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- #262
I already gave my logic for why we don't need to do it. The Ender Dragon can take hits from Steve, and even the opposition agrees that Steve can hurt The Ender Dragon. Mobs can also take hits from Steve. So, most mobs downscale from The Ender Dragon.
The Ender Dragon can hurt Steve. Other mobs can also hurt Steve. So, they up/downscale (depending on the mob).
I see no reason why we should betray this principle.
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I used to play Minecraft but stopped a year ago
Correct until you got to the words "without any outside evidence" as that's not what we do, we use canon not information we don't know
Memory loss does exist
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And my response is, if we're not using damage values, we should use the lower and consistently increasing feats that the game has rather than scaling them all to the highest feat in the series done by the final boss. (Reminder that your argument against this being wrong is either "Look at these damage values" or "The current profiles place an ability where it shouldn't be", the latter of which just needs ability revisions, the former of which is addressed below).
And if we are using damage values, we should only scale AP when they deal more damage than the Ender Dragon, and only scale HP when they have more HP than the Ender Dragon can deal.
I really don't want to endlessly run through this but I hope this condensed framing can make you sympathetic to my side. If not, then I guess our discussion ends here.
And if we are using damage values, we should only scale AP when they deal more damage than the Ender Dragon, and only scale HP when they have more HP than the Ender Dragon can deal.
I really don't want to endlessly run through this but I hope this condensed framing can make you sympathetic to my side. If not, then I guess our discussion ends here.
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- #266
Downscaling exists, first off. We don't only upscale.
Second off, if you think that The Ender Dragon's feat is too big or that we should scale everyone to different feats, take that up with the people who thought 8-B Ender Dragon was fine. As it is, basic scaling logic scales a majority of the verse to 8-B. If you don't like that number, well, take it up with the people who made 8-B.
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I know that downscaling exists, but when we downscale and find a bunch of characters with lower feats we often use those lower feats instead. If we find an increasing hierarchy of characters being "slightly stronger" going from 9-A to 8-C to High 8-C to 8-B to Low 7-C, I don't think we usually just backscale them all from the highest feat. Even if that is technically possible downscaling that much gets extremely dicey to people, from my experience.
I don't think it's basic scaling logic, I think you're misusing it.
But I guess we'll never reach an agreement so we can leave this discussion here.
I don't think it's basic scaling logic, I think you're misusing it.
But I guess we'll never reach an agreement so we can leave this discussion here.
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- #268
Your argument revolves around the jump from 9-A to 8-B being too large.
My logic doesn't care what the feats calc out at. It's simply scaling. Some people don't think Minecraft should be 8-B at all, well, all the power to them! Well, right now, it is. And if 8-B zombies sounds weird, you can bet it sounds weird to me too, but the scaling affirms it, so until 8-B is debunked, that's where we are.
The problem with downscaling in your sense is that, by that logic, 9-As and High 8-Cs are still damaging an 8-B yet aren't 8-B, and I disagree with that notion. If a presumed High 8-C or 9-A hurts an 8-B, then they scale to 8-B, and that is indeed how our wiki works.
But you're right, we are at a standstill and neither sides seem to be changing opinions.
So, how do we progress? It has been quite a while, but most people still are in favor of applying the revisions, including a majority of staff members.
My logic doesn't care what the feats calc out at. It's simply scaling. Some people don't think Minecraft should be 8-B at all, well, all the power to them! Well, right now, it is. And if 8-B zombies sounds weird, you can bet it sounds weird to me too, but the scaling affirms it, so until 8-B is debunked, that's where we are.
The problem with downscaling in your sense is that, by that logic, 9-As and High 8-Cs are still damaging an 8-B yet aren't 8-B, and I disagree with that notion. If a presumed High 8-C or 9-A hurts an 8-B, then they scale to 8-B, and that is indeed how our wiki works.
But you're right, we are at a standstill and neither sides seem to be changing opinions.
So, how do we progress? It has been quite a while, but most people still are in favor of applying the revisions, including a majority of staff members.
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Only responding to the newer stuff...
C'mon dude, I even mentioned the 8-C and High 8-C feats.
I think everyone's logic should care what the feats calc out at. A 9-A scaling to a slightly-higher-end 9-A requires a lot less scrutiny than a 9-A scaling to a 3-A. You cannot just do feat-agnostic scaling and expect to get sensible results for most verses. Have you not heard of outliers and consistency? I shudder to think what your methodology would do to all other verses if you did your scaling as if there were no calcs to inform it.
I'd hope that those people would now be more willing to, at the very least, apply the compromise solution of scaling by the damage value those feats had, but most of them haven't responded since so I guess we can't know for sure.
C'mon dude, I even mentioned the 8-C and High 8-C feats.
I think everyone's logic should care what the feats calc out at. A 9-A scaling to a slightly-higher-end 9-A requires a lot less scrutiny than a 9-A scaling to a 3-A. You cannot just do feat-agnostic scaling and expect to get sensible results for most verses. Have you not heard of outliers and consistency? I shudder to think what your methodology would do to all other verses if you did your scaling as if there were no calcs to inform it.
I'd hope that those people would now be more willing to, at the very least, apply the compromise solution of scaling by the damage value those feats had, but most of them haven't responded since so I guess we can't know for sure.
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@AKM sama @DontTalkDT @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Dargoo_Faust @Wokistan @MrKingOfNegativity @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @Sir_Ovens @Damage3245
I would appreciate if you could provide input here regarding this issue. Thank you.
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I agree that we should avoid scaling the strongest bosses to fodder enemies.
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From a "lore" perspective it's so off, lol. I think I'm neutral for now.
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Is there anything that actually makes Zombies and stuff scaling to Diamond gear Steve an outlier tho?
One argument I can see is that you have to deal with these mobs at the very beginning, but then there's also the possibility that the higher level gears aren't entire tiers above
When we don't scale common enemies to the MC there's usually lore reasons or a huge discrepency, in Minecraft when there's only gameplay I don't see you will find the former and I personally wouldn't use the latter
Agreeing with downscaling for now
One argument I can see is that you have to deal with these mobs at the very beginning, but then there's also the possibility that the higher level gears aren't entire tiers above
When we don't scale common enemies to the MC there's usually lore reasons or a huge discrepency, in Minecraft when there's only gameplay I don't see you will find the former and I personally wouldn't use the latter
Agreeing with downscaling for now
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I have nothing to say about this, because I am completely unfamiliar with Minecraft and have no context or knowledge to draw on when analyzing this thread. It looks mostly reasonable from a glance, but I know so little about the source material that I frankly don't trust my own input on it.
I'd also prefer not to be dragged into CRTs for characters/verses/etc. I don't have working knowledge of right now. I'm working on numerous revisions of my own as of late, and I don't have the time or the leftover attention span to address threads centered around topics I know nothing about.
I'd also prefer not to be dragged into CRTs for characters/verses/etc. I don't have working knowledge of right now. I'm working on numerous revisions of my own as of late, and I don't have the time or the leftover attention span to address threads centered around topics I know nothing about.
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That would be a more alluring argument if I actually knew or cared about DC or Mario on such a level.
... anyways, I suppose I can be patient, though I'm a bit tired and won't update votes for a while. They are still decisively in favor, across staff and non-staff alike, however.
I have also contacted all the Minecraft supporters I know, and they've given their feedback in the past, equally majority in favor (Edward, Saikou, Abstractions, Wokistan, etc.)
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Well, the main problem here is that this goes so much against our standard conventions, and as such might set a very bad precedent.
Can you remind me why you think that Agnaa's compromise solution is a bad idea please?
Can you remind me why you think that Agnaa's compromise solution is a bad idea please?
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