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Man, Minecraft Tiers Suck Right Now

That seems reasonable.

Enemies that vary between that amount, like Skeletons, could be "9-A, possibly 8-B", then? Technically they could be Low 7-C but aside from me already disagreeing with Low 7-C, we can assume a low-end if they're on the lower end of damage.
 
Don't Skeletons' damage vary because the arrow loses power as it flies through the air? idk whether the lower damage it has at higher distances should be taken into account on the profiles or not.

But if it is taken into account, I heard from a few people (Saikou and Ultima) that possiblies upon possiblies like that would just end up as "9-A, possibly 8-B to Low 7-C"
 
That sounds fine, then.
 
As that proposal (2 and a half hearts and above scales) was mainly about AP, some people would prefer Dura to go by different metrics. I've got three simple proposals:
  1. Ender Dragon damage plus half a heart, i.e. barely surviving. Dura scaling starts at 3 hearts of health.
  2. Critical hits deal 1.5x damage. A crit at Ender Dragon's damage would be 3 and 3 quarter hearts. We can either take this as scaling starting at 4, or scaling starting at 4 and a half.
  3. Two Ender Dragon hits plus half a heart; barely surviving two hits. Dura scaling starts at 5 and a half hearts of health.
You can check out this gamepedia page to get an idea of what mobs would scale for each of these proposals. Note that they describe half a heart as 1, so a health of "10" for them is 5 hearts.
 
We discussed this over discord and it seems both reasonable and fitting with the intentions of the game, as well as not contradictory and even implied to be supported by canon in some ways (it is advised you have diamond gear to fight The Ender Dragon, 8-B durability mobs would be able to take a Diamond Sword hit, Endermen would be 8-B and are said to be a threat to the player, etc - it isn't much, but shows reasonable basis for this scaling to be valid).
 
That is up to Mortizva and Agnaa to decide.
 
I don't know why my watch setting for this thread stopped working, but it seems way too late to do much now. I still disagree heavily with this but I'll work with what I can still fix here.


An Ender Dragon doesn't do 5 points of damage in normal difficulty (2.5 hearts), it does 10 points of damage, meaning 5 hearts of damage.

Mobs currently scale to 8-C from ghast explosions. The only things scaling to 9-A as of now are the silverfish and mobs with comparable AP.

In unenchanted diamond armor, most normal mobs can't even consistently deal even half a heart of damage to the player. Endermen can only do 0.5-1 hearts of damage to a person in unenchanted diamond armor, which is basically the equivalent of an unarmored player (considered stone wall) fighting another unarmored player with their fists alone. When the armor is enchanted, that amount lowers greatly, and Endermen can't even consistently do at least half a heart of damage. I'm bringing this up because this is the same reasoning that's used to explain why silverfish can't scale, because they can't consistently do half a heart of damage to a player in armor.
 
An Ender Dragon doesn't do 5 points of damage in normal difficulty (2.5 hearts), it does 10 points of damage, meaning 5 hearts of damage.

That's the melee damage. I mentioned both in my posts, and wing damage deals the amount of damage I said it does.
 
I hope it’s a relatable feeling that I’m really unamused and tired of continuing this when Agnaa and I have already reached a compromise.
 
So should the compromise solution be applied now then?
 
I'd say that's fine. Agnaa?
 
Have we agreed on when durability should start scaling?
 
I believe 5 1/2 Hearts is where we put things, between us two? It also seems like the most reasonable thing to do, too.
 
I am fine with that.

I'm not sure if we want to wait for other people to accept that too, so I'm neutral on applying it.
 
What you have agreed about can probably be applied.
 
Okay, hold on: things like zombies and skeletons only consistently do 1.5-2 hearts, so by this logic you're saying they would only qualify for 9-A/8-C, but at the same time they have well over 5 hearts, which under this logic makes them 8-B, pretty much making characters like these stone walls, and by their stats they should be unable to harm each other.


The biggest argument you guys are trying to make for using game points for scaling is "minecraft has no lore or progression," but the mobestiary literally points out zombies attacking and killing villagers to turn them into zombies (which wouldnt happen when both mobs have 10 hearts (zombies having natural armor points so being tougher), which gives them stone wall durability. It's also said in the mobestiary that a tactic to get rid of skeletons is to make them shoot other mobs so that they can fight each other, and it also addresses that one sole skeleton could kill a creeper (who also has 10 hearts).

So right here the lore straight up addresses that they have comparable AP and durability, which based on your premise should have more credit than health points alone since that involes nothing but game mechanics.
 
We actually covered Skeletons specifically, though, above. As for zombies, well, I'm a man of compromise. Personally I prefer my original suggestion, but I'm down to settle with Agnaa's version. Your counterpoints do exist, specifically against Agnaa's notion of AP, so let's change it a bit then.

So, we have a few options. Either scale based on 1/2 a heart via fists, use Zombie damage as the floor, or via Ender Dragon's wings. Which one works the best for you?
 
Or maybe 10 heart mobs shouldn't scale, and base Steve without armor shouldn't be considered to scale.
 
What's our current 8-C calculation, again?
 
8-C is from a Ghast's fireball. They deal 6 hearts of damage, more than any of the Ender Dragon's attacks.
 
So, if we aren't scaling to The Ender Dragon, that would mean quite literally all 10 heart mobs and below would be 9-A scaling to a silverfish, which I think is less correct than scaling to varying degrees of surviving a hit from The Ender Dragon.
 
I don't think so, no.
 
I would appreciate if somebody would be willing to do so.
 
Well, Ant, it seems a valid point has been raised about the scaling, and now we're back to two options - scaling 8-B to those who attack similarly to The Ender Dragon, or have the baseline of 8-B be at zombie-tier mobs who are canonically capable of harming and being a threat to mobs who can definitely survive Ghast or Ender Dragon hits.
 
Okay. I would appreciate input from other staff and experienced members here regarding which option that we should go with.
 
As noted previously, I'm still in preference of my original Silverfish-based proposal, though that seems generally disliked by the opposing side, so I am willing to settle for either of the above. Whichever is most agreed upon.
 
Okay. Would you be willing to send notifications to all of the staff members who have commented in this thread earlier?
 
So, if we aren't scaling to The Ender Dragon, that would mean quite literally all 10 heart mobs and below would be 9-A scaling to a silverfish, which I think is less correct than scaling to varying degrees of surviving a hit from The Ender Dragon.

I don't think it's less correct. Better than a horrendous mix of whatever bits of lore you decide as okay and numbers pulled out of your ass which lead to really strange results.

I feel like our only viable compromise is gone. Now we're back to scaling mobs who deal far less damage than the Ender Dragon to the Ender Dragon because the Ender Dragon's damage wouldn't be able to one-shot them if they happened to exist in the End, which they don't.

Even Endermen at the very least have 20 hearts, and deal 3 and a half hearts of damage, putting them far above the other early-game mobs in HP and attack.

Well, Ant, it seems a valid point has been raised about the scaling, and now we're back to two options - scaling 8-B to those who attack similarly to The Ender Dragon, or have the baseline of 8-B be at zombie-tier mobs who are canonically capable of harming and being a threat to mobs who can definitely survive Ghast or Ender Dragon hits.

What exactly does the first option here mean?
 
Would you be willing to use some variant of the first option Agnaa?
 
Okay. Some more specific elaboration would be appreciated then.
 
So, for various reasons, this ended up stalling. Let me bring it back.

Agnaa and I agreed that 2 1/2 hearts for attack, and 5 1/2 hearts for health, is a simple metric for scaling to "8-B, possibly Low 7-C" that fits far better than the inconsistent mess that is the current system. We talked about this extensively in the past. Furthermore, mobs that vary in how damaging their attacks are will be "9-A, possibly 8-B to Low 7-C".

There are very, very few people who oppose this, the primary being Deathstroke. Given that the topic went on for four pages and a long amount of time without either Deathstroke or I convincing each other in the slightest, I doubt debate will make any advances on that front.

Thus, I make the official request that the changes be applied. If nobody has any problems, I will move forward in doing so.
 
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