Major Mortal Kombat Revision, Part I

[Antvasima]

It doesn't matter. Read our crossovers page. Even canon crossovers usually rescale characters to an extreme degree to fit with each other during matchups.

 

[Hellbeast]

There's in universe reasoning so the game isn't useful to scale anyway

Like at most it's an amusing tidbit

You could use it to argue teh intros referring to the comics can be used but hey

 

[BlackDarkness679]

And power scaling has certain legitimate stuff from it when it comes to scaling

Superman (injustice variant) and Raiden are comparable or equals with one another in the crossover

Darkseid (injustice variant) and Shao Kahn are depicted as equals in an official image of them fighting, let alone with Raiden and Superman besting their respective archnemesis

Also Deathstroke (Injustice variant) and Kano fighting evenly

These ones (that i remember) are justified legit for scaling, the others are explained why some are beating the others when it shouldnt be the case, kombat rage is what makes that to some

 

[Hellbeast]

And power scaling has certain legitimate stuff from it when it comes to scaling

Superman (injustice variant) and Raiden are comparable or equals with one another in the crossover

Darkseid (injustice variant) and Shao Kahn are depicted as equals in an official image of them fighting, let alone with Raiden and Superman besting their respective archnemesis

Also Deathstroke (Injustice variant) and Kano fighting evenly

These ones (that i remember) are justified legit for scaling, the others are explained why some are beating the others when it shouldnt be the case, kombat rage is what makes that to some

Except that's the issue

The crossover is filled with Kombat Rage and it helps Injustice is probably going through it's own revisions soon

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It doesn't matter. Read our crossovers page. Even canon crossovers usually rescale characters to an extreme degree to fit with each other during matchups.

I dont need to read something i already did many times by this point and its not even a case about rescaling either...

 

[Antvasima]

Again, what you suggest is explicitly against our rules, and for very good reasons. I would appreciate if you stop pushing for it please.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Except that's the issue

The crossover is filled with Kombat Rage and it helps Injustice is probably going through it's own revisions soon

The story of each side shows when the kombat rage is coming into play or not, either by yellow eyes or voice change, let alone some of them got rid of it eventually till the final showdown of the two universes

 

[Hellbeast]

Cool

I also mentioned Injustice has it's own revisions coming so it's kind of pointless

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Again, what you suggest is explicitly against our rules, and for very good reasons. I would appreciate if you stop pushing for it please.

Not even against the rules, cross scaling says there criterias for such a thing to happen, to which it goes through all without much issues

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Cool

I also mentioned Injustice has it's own revisions coming so it's kind of pointless

And? Still doesnt change scaling between the characters, those that are legitimate at least

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

I believe we should have a vote on the attitude toward the comics, as it is something the MK fandom as a whole is split on. They are currently plenty of references to the comics' events both in story and in character backgrounds revealed in interactions; MKX presents the attitude of 'you want to know more about this thing that happened off-screen? Go read the comics'.
So while not all of the comics is canon, does the amount of references justify a position of 'canon unless contradicted in newer canon'?

I agree that MK vs DC happens in a separate timeline. The problem is that power levels are not consistent across timelines; just look at Original Timeline's continental feats vs the top feats in the Current timeline, if we consider the arcade endings to be alternative timelines then we have fodders bragging that they are more powerful than Elder Gods.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

MK vs DC happens somewhere between MK3 and MK4 going by what MK story side of that game says with its narrative

This whole original and current timeline isnt something like post crisis or new 52, MK9 is basically still MK1 to MK3 from original, just that events are changed to avoid getting to the armaggedon route again, using NRS bad story writing between power levels to say current timeline is vastly weaker then original is unfounded

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also as far as mk went all this time on fandom with their ratings, none used endings from arcade to justify a tiering for any character ever, dont know why this was even brought up in OP, nobody scaled Sonya from Shao Kahn or Liu Kang from Raiden (MK9 arcade ending)

 

[Hellbeast]

And? Still doesnt change scaling between the characters, those that are legitimate at least

It does

We have no idea if the scaling will be consistent and at the very best that'd refer to the Old Timeline which is discussed in a separate thread

Ignoring the possibility it's a separate timeline altogether as seen in 11

I believe we should have a vote on the attitude toward the comics, as it is something the MK fandom as a whole is split on. They are currently plenty of references to the comics' events both in story and in character backgrounds revealed in interactions; MKX presents the attitude of 'you want to know more about this thing that happened off-screen? Go read the comics'.
So while not all of the comics is canon, does the amount of references justify a position of 'canon unless contradicted in newer canon'?

I agree that MK vs DC happens in a separate timeline. The problem is that power levels are not consistent across timelines; just look at Original Timeline's continental feats vs the top feats in the Current timeline, if we consider the arcade endings to be alternative timelines then we have fodders bragging that they are more powerful than Elder Gods.

Tbh I'm split

On one hand Ciancolo is blatantly inconsistent WOG wise and the comics are referenced with stuff like the Reiko accords

That said at most it'd be secondary canon and King has good reasons for why it's not

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

So you take his word about the comics not being entirely canon, but ignore his word about the crossover being canon + injustice 2 dialogues saying mk vs dc happened, the endings of the two characters implied to have some of it actually happened and they came straight from MKX story in that place and teasing between them the mk11 timeline shenanigans, along mk11 story showing raiden vs liu kang from mk vs dc, let alone further confirming their visit has happened to injustice 2

Double standards as its finest

Dialogues are legitimate just because some are iffy, keyword some, it doesnt mean you will disregard them all now or nitpick from them

I'm not ignoring the writer's word about MKvsDC being canon to the series. He clearly states that the events of MKvsDC have happened before in a previous timeline made by Kronika that she restarted because she thinks it was a mistake (oof). However these are all different continuities of events with different displays of power.

Kombat Rage works by increasing and decreasing a character's level of power depending on the opponent that they are facing, which is why Sub-Zero was able to freeze Superman. As shown here, Dark Kahn's power lowered Superman's strength so that SZ can have a fighting chance against him. Using the scaling shown in MKvsDC is unreliable because they all suffer a constant flux of power balance during the merging of two universes done by DK's Kombat Rage. Sub-Zero in that story could've been as strong as his MK self while he was facing Superman, whose power and strength was brought down to SZ's level.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It does

We have no idea if the scaling will be consistent and at the very best that'd refer to the Old Timeline which is discussed in a separate thread

Ignoring the possibility it's a separate timeline altogether as seen in 11

Already pointed out regarding the original and current timelines deal, there is no reason to assume one is superior over the other, its not a reboot set in a different universe like DC with post crisis or new 52, original and current timeline both start from the same point, difference being they go different routes that lead to different outcomes in lore, they are the same characters with same power levels

Skullgirls series has each of their characters stories as a different timeline, all start from the same point, but they get different outcomes, power levels overall are the same, similar case would be to MK series too

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I'm not ignoring the writer's word about MKvsDC being canon to the series. He clearly states that the events of MKvsDC have happened before in a previous timeline made by Kronika that she restarted because she thinks it was a mistake (oof). However these are all different continuities of events with different displays of power.

Kombat Rage works by increasing and decreasing a character's level of power depending on the opponent that they are facing, which is why Sub-Zero was able to freeze Superman. As shown here, Dark Kahn's power lowered Superman's strength so that SZ can have a fighting chance against him. Using the scaling shown in MKvsDC is unreliable because they all suffer a constant flux of power balance during the merging of two universes done by DK's Kombat Rage. Sub-Zero in that story could've been as strong as his MK self while he was facing Superman, whose power and strength was brought down to SZ's level.

Refer what i said comments below from what you replied to now, kombat rage comes into play at some fights, not all of them, you need to pay attention in which it clearly does for the plot to continue and which not

Also superman got his power back near the end of the game before fighting Raiden, he said it himself

 

[Hellbeast]

Already pointed out regarding the original and current timelines deal, there is no reason to assume one is superior over the other, its not a reboot set in a different universe like DC with post crisis or new 52, original and current timeline both start from the same point, difference being they go different routes that lead to different outcomes in lore, they are the same characters with same power levels

Skullgirls series has each of their characters stories as a different timeline, all start from the same point, but they get different outcomes, power levels overall are the same, similar case would be to MK series too

Except it explicitly is

The reboot in 9 is far closer to a DC Reset, with an entirely new slate and massive retcons to basic cosmology

11's revelations do not work in the OG games for instance and to say otherwise is to ignore that and the fact these characters have very differently defined limits

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You clearly didnt read and ignore what i say for no reason...

MK9 is still going from where MK1 to MK3 went through, difference is just some events changing to prevent leading to armaggedon

DC reboots absolutely anything from a previous universe and focusing on a new one

Different timeline =/= different universe

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Let alone other franchises dealing with different timelines, treats the characters at the same levels of power overall, only events being different between those

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I'd like to argue against this, but that would mean I have to rewatch all of the cutscenes of MKvsDC which I really don't want to do and I don't feel motivated to do so. Tomorrow I might make an argument against scaling MK to Injustice through MKvsDC or using that game for scaling at all.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I already pointed out 3 things that are legitimitate in scaling between the two, out of what i remember from seeing both sides of the story months ago

All this fuss is for nothing given raiden and supes are rated the same exact tier on fandom, let alone Ed Boon said in interviews and such how Batman would fair against Scorpion and Subzero, pretty much saying to be comparable

 

[Antvasima]

We do not scale from crossovers for the reasons that I mentioned earlier. It is extremely unreliable due to that characters of wildly different power levels usually have to be rescaled to be able to fight each other. We have to stick with the feats of each respective verse instead.

I would appreciate if you stop being a problem by pushing for this, as I am very tired and do not have the energy. It is not going to pass anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, can we please return to discussing the feats of the characters within their own verses instead? Attempting to scale from crossovers is just going to severely derail, waste everybody's time, and not lead anywhere/be completely unproductive, so nothing gets done.

It is much better if you find feats from within the verse itself instead.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

i already explained 2-3 times by now it isnt any rescaling done in this case at all if you bothered to read what i said

None of you given any actual reason why to be against it and even your crossover page with the criteria it gives there fits with the mk vs dc one

 

[Antvasima]

We never scale from crossovers elsewhere, and it would set a very bad precedent to start here. They as good as always run on plot-induced stupidity.

Again, stop pushing for this immediately. I do not have the energy to deal with yet another repeat discussion of this nature, and you are systematically destroying this thread by doing so.

If you do not comply, I will have to block you from responding any further to this particular thread, so the rest of us can continue to try to get something productive done here.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

You dont even help with anything other then ask others to do stuff others already asked by others here...

"We never scale from crossovers elsewhere, and it would set a very bad precedent to start here", yeah sure....even since Dominic said the crossover is canon none has questioned it for being used now, only this place is against it for no reason

Do what you want, hope its lost for this series by how things go, not gonna be a part of that

 

[Antvasima]

Look, I apologise if I am being rude and impatient. I am currently both exhausted and very stressed out about the world at large in combination, so that is not good for my behaviour.

Anyway, you are still free to contribute to this thread, as long as you focus in the in-verse feats. That is far more reliable.

 

[Metalija]

So are Elder Gods gonna be High 8-C now?

 

[Antvasima]

I do not know, but would appreciate if we could get back to discussing the statistics and feats of Mortal Kombat characters without scaling them from Injustice.

 

[Metalija]

Someone should calc Fire God Liu Kang and Crowned Fujin destroying barriers.

 

[Antvasima]

If you find scans or animations of the feats, I could ask calc group members to help out.

 

[Hellbeast]

Someone should calc Fire God Liu Kang and Crowned Fujin destroying barriers.

I’m also fairly certain Liu melts through large doors before fighting Kronika

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

You could calc those feats, but I doubt that they're any better than God Liu's explosion feat at High 8-C.

 

[Antvasima]

EA makes a good point.

 

[Hellbeast]

You could calc those feats, but I doubt that they're any better than God Liu's explosion feat at High 8-C.

Truth but they'd be solid supporting feats

I kinda hope we can find some feats for the Demigods tho

 

[Metalija]

Truth but they'd be solid supporting feats

I kinda hope we can find some feats for the Demigods tho

Demigods can somewhat hold their own against Elder Gods. For example Fujin was able to hurt Cetrion, and Cetrion is High 8-C for making that bridge. Sindel also scales to Cetrion, and Raiden is comparable to Fujin.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Demigods can somewhat hold their own against Elder Gods. For example Fujin was able to hurt Cetrion, and Cetrion is High 8-C for making that bridge. Sindel also scales to Cetrion, and Raiden is comparable to Fujin.

This is, apparently, due to the Elder Gods being weakened during the events of MK11. I made a post touching on that earlier.

I was actually going to mention this separately, but since it's relevant to the point above...

I just recently remembered a line that I must've initially taken as throwaway dialogue (because my mind has been completely skipping over it until now), but turns out to be particularly important.


Allegedly, the Elder Gods are all weakened as a result of MK11's time merger. This may explain why so many of the characters aren't immediately stomped whenever they fight Cetrion; she's not at her full strength, and may even be weakening continuously over the course of the story.

On the other hand, this throws a wrench in the scaling, since a cutscene shows that Fujin with Kronika's Crown (who apparently tops out at blasting a giant gate open) was able to overwhelm Kronika herself. (Who's supposed to be more powerful than Cetrion at her strongest)

Regardless, it seems the cast only really stands a chance against Cetrion because she's lost most of her power. Which is actually not that out-of-line with the rest of the MK11 story, seeing as Shang Tsung never says "Sindel is as powerful as the Elder Gods"; he says "[Sindel] is the power we need to ensure victory against Cetrion".

The only real snag this causes is in relation to higher-tier scaling; Fujin with the Soul Crown has upper limits that Cetrion doesn't (even when weakened), but is still somehow able to overwhelm Kronika, who's supposed to be a great deal more powerful than Cetrion even when the latter is at her strongest.

 

[Metalija]

Well if weakened Cetrion was the one who did the High 8-C feat then Demigods should scale to that, and full power Elder Gods should scale above that.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Sindel (after defeating Shiva) boasted that Elder Gods tremble before her, so she should still be Elder God level before the time shenanigans weakened the Elder Gods. I believe this makes it more likely for the rate of Elder God weakening to not be drastic.