Major Mortal Kombat Revision, Part I

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I think he'd definitely be lower than Raiden, but on par or slightly higher than characters like Shang or Nightwolf. I say this because he tanks most of the Aftermath trio's attacks after Shang knocked him down with a fire skull (Shang's normal fire ball did jack) including a combined magic attack from Shang and Fujin as well as a beatdown from all three of them, which he was able to take hits from and do a counter attack that successfully beats most of them.

 

[Hellbeast]

I’m personally cool with Geras getting X tier (what Johnny and co are) likely X Tier (what Liu is)

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I’m personally cool with Geras getting X tier (what Johnny and co are) likely X Tier (what Liu is)

Add "At least X tier" to his base and I think it's good.

Also this is probably not related to the thread, but can we add stuff like combos and fatalities to the character's notable attacks/techniques section? Some characters display their powers through these and I think it would be worth adding to their page.

 

[Hellbeast]

All g, so maybe it'd be like

At least X Tier (Could fight evenly with Sonya Blade {Although lost} and traded blows with Nightwold and Shang Tsung), likely X Tier (Could trade blows with Kung Lao and Liu Kang)

In that case should the GKL have an upgrade? Since he battled Geras to a standstill

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I doubt the Great Kung Lao can outright scale to Geras, given that the latter gets stronger every time he dies and has been sent to his death numerous times prior to the events of MK11.

Also, I should note that the aftermath of Sonya's battle with Geras is fairly ambiguous. Unlike most Story battles, the cutscene after that fight doesn't show Geras on the ground. The visual implication seems to be that Cassie interrupted the fight by driving into Geras with a forklift.

The other thing I should note is that Nightwolf is definitely on the upper end of whatever new scaling we have, given he both A. has some of the best actual feats in the series, and B. has only ever lost to two people in the current canon. (Both of whom were far above the average characters) I'm not sure why he's as strong as he is, but the fact remains that he is consistently portrayed as being stronger than most of the cast.

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Actually Havik does seem to have a feat of regenerating a crushed head.

The point is that a powerful character returning to life through unknown means doesn't mean that the entire plot of the comic is invalidated.
Havik would actually be one of the least likely people to join Kronika; she wants to create 'balance' through a perpetual battle between good and evil and hand-craft a new era, while Havik wants chaos across all realms.
Kronika most likely doesn't control which warrior gets resurrected; her trick resurrected plenty of characters who will hinder her plans and who will immedietly go assist/warn Raiden, and she didn't have time (ironicly) to personally kill/banish/imprison most of them.

---

Geras has a particularly bad anti-feat by being wrecked by a forklift and a couple of grenades. After the fight with Sonya, she says "stay away from my daughter", and Geras is seen on his knee even in the cutscene where the forklift rams him. So Sonya unambigiously won. It would be possible for Geras to make a comeback if the fight continues, but Sonya had the upper hand.

Lets look at Geras' battles:

• Said he fought the Great Kung Lao (who is weaker than Goro) and previous Nightwolves (who are weaker than the current Nightwolf). Geras had less deaths and experience, and was thus weaker.
• Lost to either young Liu Kang or young Kung Lao (apparently, both at Elder God level) after they defeated their Revenant version (who are Elder God level). Cutscene shows that Geras is evenly matched with them, but Kung Lao can behead him with his hat throw.
• Stomped Special Ops soldiers; their bullets and knives damage his body, but he insta-regens and no-sells.
• Lost against young Sonya, and then Cassie impales him with a forklift and turns him into chunks with a couple of grenades.
• Gets a Thousand Deaths boost and it is implied that he is now stronger than Raiden, but Raiden gets the upper hand after gameplay. Raiden uses an anchor (why would a ship built for a bottomless sea have an anchor?) to wrap Geras in large chains and sink him into bottomleess blood; Geras apparently can't break free from the chains.
• In Aftermath, base Geras gets the upper hand against Nightwolf and Fujin and Shang Tsung at the same time (all Elder God level) in a cutscene, but after gameplay gets defeated by Nightwolf.
• Thousand Deaths Geras gets demolished by either Shao Kahn or Sindel, Shao Kahn then crushes Geras head. Geras apparently doesn't regenerate and he is not seen from again (I would like to think that this is due to embarrassment).

There is enough consistency for Geras to be top-tier. We can dismiss the Sonya defeat as PIS, or speculate that Geras was holding back to toy with her.

Since there is a lack of physical feats above Tier 9, a question I believe is important for determining tiers is: can bullets and grenades damage top-tiers? Without regen, Geras was be ded dozens time over against a standard military squad.

We should calc the feats of Fire God Liu Kang and Soul Crown Fujin. Though it is of note that they are not Elder God level, but at Titan level. Dominic said that Titans are more powerful than the One Being, who is more powerful than Elder Gods.
The best path for upgrade seems to be the Cetrion bridge creation, then we can see if it scales to her attacks or counts as Environmental Destruction.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Geras is definitely top tier, just not as high as we thought he would be. I doubt that some of the characters' new tiers would be Tier 9 (except for low tier ones) since it turns out that some parts of the comic have made it to MK11's story mode. The feats in Sub-Zero's battle with the Cyber Lin Kuei are really good, like SZ sliding away from an explosion and Cyrax's self-destruct which destroys the whole underground cyborg base and a small portion of the forest above it, which SZ blocks with his ice shield (plus he was next to Cyrax when it happened).

Btw, where do we start with this new scaling thing? I gathered a list of feats that we can use and another list of events in the comics that are still canon to MK11.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Actually Havik does seem to have a feat of regenerating a crushed head.

The point is that a powerful character returning to life through unknown means doesn't mean that the entire plot of the comic is invalidated.

Havik regenerates above due to being empowered by the Blood Code. Said healing factor is not something he is inherently capable of. The same is true of Reiko when Mileena smashes the side of his head with Shao Kahn's hammer.

We know from later issues that the Blood Code has its limits in this regard; if you cut off a person's head or separate parts of their body from each other, they can't just grow those things back. We see that with Reiko again:

Havik had his head torn off and then teleported to the Netherrealm, without his body. Between that and the Blood Code itself practically evaporating before our very eyes towards the end of the story, it's safe to say that this isn't something he should have been able to come back from on his own.

Havik would actually be one of the least likely people to join Kronika; she wants to create 'balance' through a perpetual battle between good and evil and hand-craft a new era, while Havik wants chaos across all realms.
Kronika most likely doesn't control which warrior gets resurrected; her trick resurrected plenty of characters who will hinder her plans and who will immedietly go assist/warn Raiden, and she didn't have time (ironicly) to personally kill/banish/imprison most of them.

Kronika can literally stop time, as seen with the MK11 intro where she appears before Shinnok, the scene where she appears before Raiden in the Fire Garden, the altered scene in Aftermath where she appears before Raiden, Fujin and Shang Tsung, and (most notably) the scene where she recruits present-day Jax.



Time constraints are the last thing she has to worry about. If he had been resurrected, she would have stopped time and appeared before him at some point within the span of either story. That this never happens (and he never appears in the Void or in Kronika's army) suggests that he was never revived to begin with, which subsequently means that he never actually died.

Mind you, this is a moot argument anyway; the current, most recent statements regarding canon that we have are "Comics aren't canon" and "Some elements of the comics make it to the story. That doesn't mean the comics are canon.". Unless Ed Boon himself decides to say otherwise, that's the final verdict, no matter what explanations one tries to provide for why Havik is still alive.

Geras has a particularly bad anti-feat by being wrecked by a forklift and a couple of grenades. After the fight with Sonya, she says "stay away from my daughter", and Geras is seen on his knee even in the cutscene where the forklift rams him. So Sonya unambigiously won. It would be possible for Geras to make a comeback if the fight continues, but Sonya had the upper hand.

Lets look at Geras' battles:

• Said he fought the Great Kung Lao (who is weaker than Goro) and previous Nightwolves (who are weaker than the current Nightwolf). Geras had less deaths and experience, and was thus weaker.
• Lost to either young Liu Kang or young Kung Lao (apparently, both at Elder God level) after they defeated their Revenant version (who are Elder God level). Cutscene shows that Geras is evenly matched with them, but Kung Lao can behead him with his hat throw.
• Stomped Special Ops soldiers; their bullets and knives damage his body, but he insta-regens and no-sells.
• Lost against young Sonya, and then Cassie impales him with a forklift and turns him into chunks with a couple of grenades.
• Gets a Thousand Deaths boost and it is implied that he is now stronger than Raiden, but Raiden gets the upper hand after gameplay. Raiden uses an anchor (why would a ship built for a bottomless sea have an anchor?) to wrap Geras in large chains and sink him into bottomleess blood; Geras apparently can't break free from the chains.
• In Aftermath, base Geras gets the upper hand against Nightwolf and Fujin and Shang Tsung at the same time (all Elder God level) in a cutscene, but after gameplay gets defeated by Nightwolf.
• Thousand Deaths Geras gets demolished by either Shao Kahn or Sindel, Shao Kahn then crushes Geras head. Geras apparently doesn't regenerate and he is not seen from again (I would like to think that this is due to embarrassment).

There is enough consistency for Geras to be top-tier. We can dismiss the Sonya defeat as PIS, or speculate that Geras was holding back to toy with her.

I don't necessarily disagree with the overall point here, but I've made some highlights to correct one thing:

None of the characters mentioned are necessarily Elder God level. Fujin and Shang Tsung didn't harm Cetrion until she was weakened after battling Sindel and Nightwolf (Fujin himself uses a piercing attack to do so), and no version of Liu Kang is ever proven to be on the level of an Elder God until Fire God Liu comes along. In Fujin/Shang Tsung's case, they never actually kill her; they just manage to drive her off.

The only real candidate for "Elder God level" out of those listed above is Nightwolf, and that's because he's consistently stronger than most of the cast, has several higher-end feats of his own, and is one of the only characters who hasn't insta-died against amped Sindel. Actually, amped Sindel is the only character he's outright lost to in canon outside of a couple of isolated player-driven fights, and even then, he went down swinging. Compare that to everyone else who fought her in MK9, all of whom got the shit beaten out of them in seconds.

As far as Geras is concerned, he generally seems to fall just short of characters on Raiden's level. Considering he's both even with the younger Liu Kang and Kung Lao (he seems mostly unfazed after taking a beating from them both, and eventually just freezes them in place so he can get on with his tasks) and capable of flooring Shang Tsung (who is generally weaker than both of them) with some effort, I think it's safe to assume that his normal self should at least scale to Liu Kang, wherever his tier ends up.

Since there is a lack of physical feats above Tier 9, a question I believe is important for determining tiers is: can bullets and grenades damage top-tiers? Without regen, Geras was be ded dozens time over against a standard military squad.

On one hand, we never see an instance where any Elder God or Titan is harmed by bullets. On the other hand, the one time we see an Elder God faced with such attacks, Shinnok opts to erect a forcefield in front of himself for some reason.

If the Elder God characters gain ratings above Tier 9, we can probably just write the above off as PIS though.

We should calc the feats of Fire God Liu Kang and Soul Crown Fujin. Though it is of note that they are not Elder God level, but at Titan level. Dominic said that Titans are more powerful than the One Being, who is more powerful than Elder Gods.
The best path for upgrade seems to be the Cetrion bridge creation, then we can see if it scales to her attacks or counts as Environmental Destruction.

I've already sent numerous feats in for calculation. Cetrion's bridge creation, Fire God Liu's destructive feats and Soul Crown!Fujin's gate blast are among them. I should note, however, that one of Fire God Liu's more visually impressive feats was already calculated some time ago. This was the result.

I said before that I don't plan on scaling the series based on Dominic Cianciolo's opinion of the characters, and I'm sticking to that. Titans should be (and in Fire God Liu and Soul Crown Shang Tsung's case, demonstrably are) more powerful than the Elder Gods, but "Cianciolo says they're stronger than the One Being" isn't the reason why.

 

[Hellbeast]

While I'm here I've requested some feats that King suggested we calc

I also believe we might have missed some fetas but I'lll go digging

I also believe Raiden, FGL and the other gods (Is Shao a God in this timeline?) should have some degree of Acausality

Fire God Liu Kang came into the past and seemed completely unaffected by his past self's injuries (Which crippled Revenant Liu Kang and we regularly see injuries translate between incarnations)

Liu Kang is the only one to resist his and it fits with Raiden's comment about sitting aside of time (No idea what happened to Dark Raiden tho.)

Noob might also have weaker Klones depending on how many he summons at a time but I'm unsure of that

Fire God Liu also shatters meteors which could be valid

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Kronika can literally stop time, as seen with the MK11 intro where she appears before Shinnok, the scene where she appears before Raiden in the Fire Garden, the altered scene in Aftermath where she appears before Raiden, Fujin and Shang Tsung, and (most notably) the scene where she recruits present-day Jax.


Time constraints are the last thing she has to worry about. If he had been resurrected, she would have stopped time and appeared before him at some point within the span of either story. That this never happens (and he never appears in the Void or in Kronika's army) suggests that he was never revived to begin with, which subsequently means that he never actually died.

Kronika was (again, ironicly) under time constrains, which is indicated by many statements. This was the whole point of recruiting allies; to buy time and distract Raiden's faction.

Kronika:My Hourglass requires protection while I work. Will your Outworld armies defend it? Geras:It's dangerous to let them live. Kronika:If they die, their Revenant selves will cease to exist. We need them to defend the Keep. Yet again, Liu Kang, you've chosen the wrong destiny. Cetrion:Kotal Kahn is captured, Raiden. The combined might of Outworld and the Netherrealm will keep your forces at bay -- while my mother finishes her work. Raiden:Undoubtedly. But Kronika's behavior akes it clear that, while mighty, she is not all-powerful. Otherwise why would she attempt to steal Jinsei? Jacqui:Think maybe she's still building strength? Raiden:A distinct probability. Liu Kang:We've lost Shao Kahn, his Outworld army, and now the Black Dragon. Kronika:While Raiden's allies have burned precious time fighting Kano and Shao Kahn, our most important work has continued, uninterrupted, on Shang Tsung's Island. Kronika:Our success is no longer certain. We must make haste. Kronika:Liu Kang. God of Thunder and Fire. Combining with Raiden has the benefit of novelty. But it is also too little, too late.

Also note that only after she acquires the crown did Kronika casually teleport time stopped Liu Kang to kidap him. While Liu Kang and Kung Lao were time stopped she didn't attempt to kidnap or banish them despite them being a threat. Indicating that trying to apprehend them unwillingly would be risky or waste too much time, and that banishing them to the void would waste too much energy.

So if Havik has no knowledge of Kronika's plans and he is unlikely to interfere without prodding, visiting him would be a waste of time for Kronika since he'll refuse to join if not try to stop her.

Mind you, this is a moot argument anyway; the current, most recent statements regarding canon that we have are "Comics aren't canon" and "Some elements of the comics make it to the story. That doesn't mean the comics are canon.". Unless Ed Boon himself decides to say otherwise, that's the final verdict, no matter what explanations one tries to provide for why Havik is still alive.

Not really. Nobody disputes that 'not the entirety of comics is canon'; this was known before Dominic's tweet as MK makes lots of continuity errors and retcons. What you need to argue against is what a noticable segment of MK's fanbase believes: that there are enough references to the comics in the games that allow for the meat of the comics and its broad strokes to be canon.
For example, Cassie, Jacqui, Takeda, Kung Jin made their first apperance in the comics. MKX story mentions the Reiko Accords, which references the comics where Raiden tells Kotal that they need to establish an accord after Reiko's and Havik's actions. Character designs and personality, such as Tremor, are based on the comics. Sub-Zero not longer being a cyborg and getting a scar along with Sektor's head is a reference to the comics (in MK11 Kano vs Sub-Zero intro dialogue, and Sub-Zero's "This is for my scar" round win quote against Kano affirms that Kano is the one who gave Sub-Zero his scar, like in the comics). So if it is fair to consider MKX canon despite having retconned parts, it is fair to consider the comics canon minus the retconned parts.

None of the characters mentioned are necessarily Elder God level. Fujin and Shang Tsung didn't harm Cetrion until she was weakened after battling Sindel and Nightwolf (Fujin himself uses a piercing attack to do so), and no version of Liu Kang is ever proven to be on the level of an Elder God until Fire God Liu comes along. In Fujin/Shang Tsung's case, they never actually kill her; they just manage to drive her off.

The problem is that there are many solid indications that Shao Kahn and Sindel are Elder God level, and there is a growing list of people who can defeat Shao Kahn. Liu Kang and Kitana being able to defeat Shao Kahn is important to the story.

Also, this is a potential short-range cloud feat for Fire God Liu Kang:

---

I also believe Raiden, FGL and the other gods (Is Shao a God in this timeline?) should have some degree of Acausality

Fire God Liu Kang came into the past and seemed completely unaffected by his past self's injuries (Which crippled Revenant Liu Kang and we regularly see injuries translate between incarnations)

Liu Kang is the only one to resist his and it fits with Raiden's comment about sitting aside of time (No idea what happened to Dark Raiden tho.)

Gods like Raiden have some acausality. Per his statement: "As an immortal, I exist outside the normal laws of time. That could explain why I am affected differently." It seems that Dark Raiden dissappeared since there can only be one Raiden within a timeline.
Fire God Liu Kang has superior acausality and possibly an additional type of acausality as he resists the Hourglass' time reset unlike Raiden.

Past-self injuries transfering to the present-self is inconsistent and prone to PIS. Otherwise fighting revenant selves, Johnny vs Johnny, or Jax vs Jax wouldn't be possible.

 

[DMUA]

Also, this is a potential short-range cloud feat for Fire God Liu Kang:

That level of short would get unironically 9-B results

If even that high.

 

[Hellbeast]

Plus it'd likely come under Raiden's storm Manip/Environmental Destruction

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Kronika was (again, ironicly) under time constrains, which is indicated by many statements. This was the whole point of recruiting allies; to buy time and distract Raiden's faction.

Kronika:My Hourglass requires protection while I work. Will your Outworld armies defend it? Geras:It's dangerous to let them live. Kronika:If they die, their Revenant selves will cease to exist. We need them to defend the Keep. Yet again, Liu Kang, you've chosen the wrong destiny. Cetrion:Kotal Kahn is captured, Raiden. The combined might of Outworld and the Netherrealm will keep your forces at bay -- while my mother finishes her work. Raiden:Undoubtedly. But Kronika's behavior akes it clear that, while mighty, she is not all-powerful. Otherwise why would she attempt to steal Jinsei? Jacqui:Think maybe she's still building strength? Raiden:A distinct probability. Liu Kang:We've lost Shao Kahn, his Outworld army, and now the Black Dragon. Kronika:While Raiden's allies have burned precious time fighting Kano and Shao Kahn, our most important work has continued, uninterrupted, on Shang Tsung's Island. Kronika:Our success is no longer certain. We must make haste. Kronika:Liu Kang. God of Thunder and Fire. Combining with Raiden has the benefit of novelty. But it is also too little, too late.

All the above implies is that she can't use her time powers to keep time stopped while she's using them on the Hourglass. It means nothing in regards to how long each recruitment takes; it's clear from the fact that time freezes around her whenever she appears before people that the act of actually recruiting people takes (literally) no time at all.

Also note that only after she acquires the crown did Kronika casually teleport time stopped Liu Kang to kidap him. While Liu Kang and Kung Lao were time stopped she didn't attempt to kidnap or banish them despite them being a threat. Indicating that trying to apprehend them unwillingly would be risky or waste too much time, and that banishing them to the void would waste too much energy.

She could also just, you know, be tactically inept. She wasn't exactly written well as a villian, much less as a planner; the Titan who's apparently orchestrated the events of infinite timelines and been pulling strings so that she's remained untouched for the whole series is also the same Titan whose big plan was "throw my minions at everyone with no strategy while I sit in my room and gather my power". Hell, once she had the Crown, she could have feasibly murdered any character in the story by that point based on might alone, so even that would have been a better plan than the one she ran with. (She wouldn't have to worry about being interrupted if everyone who would choose to do so were stomped flat beforehand)

Moreover, if banishing to the Void were too much of a tax on her power, she most likely wouldn't have bothered to do so against someone as relatively inconsequential as Nightwolf.

So if Havik has no knowledge of Kronika's plans and he is unlikely to interfere without prodding, visiting him would be a waste of time for Kronika since he'll refuse to join if not try to stop her.

Again, see the Nightwolf example above.

Also, considering that she is (again) supposed to be one of the most powerful characters in the series, she could have just killed him again if he were that much of a nuisance.

Not really. Nobody disputes that 'not the entirety of comics is canon'; this was known before Dominic's tweet as MK makes lots of continuity errors and retcons. What you need to argue against is what a noticable segment of MK's fanbase believes: that there are enough references to the comics in the games that allow for the meat of the comics and its broad strokes to be canon.
For example, Cassie, Jacqui, Takeda, Kung Jin made their first apperance in the comics. MKX story mentions the Reiko Accords, which references the comics where Raiden tells Kotal that they need to establish an accord after Reiko's and Havik's actions. Character designs and personality, such as Tremor, are based on the comics. Sub-Zero not longer being a cyborg and getting a scar along with Sektor's head is a reference to the comics (in MK11 Kano vs Sub-Zero intro dialogue, and Sub-Zero's "This is for my scar" round win quote against Kano affirms that Kano is the one who gave Sub-Zero his scar, like in the comics). So if it is fair to consider MKX canon despite having retconned parts, it is fair to consider the comics canon minus the retconned parts.

Most of your examples are coming from intro dialogues again. I've already explained why those don't work.

Also, the comics were blatantly supposed to be canon at the time of MKX's release, so those examples don't work either. The comic was supposed to be written alongside MKX so that the stories would be compatible with one-another, but failed communication between writers and developers stopped that from happening. There was even a marketing campaign at the time advertising that players "get the full story" by reading the ongoing comics and then playing the game.

It's been five years since then, and things have clearly changed over at NRS. The statement "Comics aren't canon" came in response to a direct scan from the comics, which pretty bluntly implies that the pages themselves are no longer a valid part of the canon. When questioned further, the response was "Some elements of the comics make it into the games' story modes. That doesn't mean the comics are canon."

There's no other way to interpret it. The comics are not canon anymore. Events mentioned in the more recent Story Modes are part of canon, but the comics themselves are not. Until Ed Boon or someone else from on-high comes along and says otherwise, that's what we're working with.

The problem is that there are many solid indications that Shao Kahn and Sindel are Elder God level, and there is a growing list of people who can defeat Shao Kahn. Liu Kang and Kitana being able to defeat Shao Kahn is important to the story.

I was actually going to mention this separately, but since it's relevant to the point above...

I just recently remembered a line that I must've initially taken as throwaway dialogue (because my mind has been completely skipping over it until now), but turns out to be particularly important.


Allegedly, the Elder Gods are all weakened as a result of MK11's time merger. This may explain why so many of the characters aren't immediately stomped whenever they fight Cetrion; she's not at her full strength, and may even be weakening continuously over the course of the story.

On the other hand, this throws a wrench in the scaling, since a cutscene shows that Fujin with Kronika's Crown (who apparently tops out at blasting a giant gate open) was able to overwhelm Kronika herself. (Who's supposed to be more powerful than Cetrion at her strongest)

Regardless, it seems the cast only really stands a chance against Cetrion because she's lost most of her power. Which is actually not that out-of-line with the rest of the MK11 story, seeing as Shang Tsung never says "Sindel is as powerful as the Elder Gods"; he says "[Sindel] is the power we need to ensure victory against Cetrion".

Past-self injuries transfering to the present-self is inconsistent and prone to PIS. Otherwise fighting revenant selves, Johnny vs Johnny, or Jax vs Jax wouldn't be possible.

I should point out that this is a result of player-driven fights, which are (again) something we explicitly ignore unless there's a plot-related reason not to do so.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Also this is probably not related to the thread, but can we add stuff like combos and fatalities to the character's notable attacks/techniques section? Some characters display their powers through these and I think it would be worth adding to their page.

I'd like some input on this, I think that this would be a great addition to the characters' pages

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Don't some of the characters already have those on their pages?

Regardless, uh...probably? Again, it feels like a weird double standard to add combos and specials to a person's page when we're not using Fatalities for ratings, but if they're reasonable, it shouldn't be that big of an issue.

May have to ask others for their opinion on that as well, though.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Don't some of the characters already have those on their pages?

Regardless, uh...probably? Again, it feels like a weird double standard to add combos and specials to a person's page when we're not using Fatalities for ratings, but if they're reasonable, it shouldn't be that big of an issue.

May have to ask others for their opinion on that as well, though.

The characters' combos aren't exaggerations of what they can do, it's mostly physical strikes followed by a basic utilization of their powers (Geras summoning rocks after a punch, Sub-Zero making ice spikes after a kick, etc.)

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

The characters' combos aren't exaggerations of what they can do, it's mostly physical strikes followed by a basic utilization of their powers (Geras summoning rocks after a punch, Sub-Zero making ice spikes after a kick, etc.)

Well, that's a good enough point I suppose. Fair enough.

 

[RanaProGamer]

Ok, I'm not too knowledgable on the verse since I've only played the last 3 games. I'm quoting this from a friend of mine, "Video games are generally limited to what they can do and this is due to the fact that it can be difficult to explain somethings a character can accomplish, because it may break the immersion, style or flow of the game the directors are trying to go for as well as the money that would be needed for it." So wouldn't this apply here as well? Especially since many games show the characters weaker in the game/cutscenes as opposed to the lore? They don't seem like anti-feats per se, but mainly their power being toned down for the sake of enjoyment. I could be wrong tho.

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

Ok, I'm not too knowledgable on the verse since I've only played the last 3 games. I'm quoting this from a friend of mine, "Video games are generally limited to what they can do and this is due to the fact that it can be difficult to explain somethings a character can accomplish, because it may break the immersion, style or flow of the game the directors are trying to go for as well as the money that would be needed for it." So wouldn't this apply here as well? Especially since many games show the characters weaker in the game/cutscenes as opposed to the lore? They don't seem like anti-feats per se, but mainly their power being toned down for the sake of enjoyment. I could be wrong tho.

This is talking about game mechanics, I believe. It's referring to the fact that gameplay tends to not show characters performing certain feats in-game, like Nightmare from Soul Calibur not just obliterating the stage with his every in-game strike.

Regardless of what it's referring to, cutscenes and lore come first. Gameplay comes second.

 

[Hellbeast]

Also while I'm here Shao should have his Immortality Removed

By word of Ciancolo he's neither a God nor Immortal but his lifespan is just so long he may as well be Immortal

Also about MK V DC

 

[Hellbeast]

Bump

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Also while I'm here Shao should have his Immortality Removed

By word of Ciancolo he's neither a God nor Immortal but his lifespan is just so long he may as well be Immortal

Also about MK V DC

Yes, I do think that Shao's immortality should be removed, but it will stay with his other page if we ever make it. Replace it with Longevity instead since his thousands of years of living is still a thing that he has.

That statement about MK vs DC doesn't do much in our situation (for now) since we haven't seen any interaction with the two verses yet. Maybe when the next game comes out, we can actually talk about that.

 

[Hellbeast]

That’s what I was thinking

Tbh I more out that there as a meme since that cane up earlier in the thread (inb4 it proved the dialogues are valid)

 

[Hellbeast]

Some calcs done here

Sadly it's only speed and Cetrion

Also just remembered

Does Fire God Liu deflecting meteors yield anything good?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Some calcs done here

Sadly it's only speed and Cetrion

Also just remembered

Does Fire God Liu deflecting meteors yield anything good?

I'm no calc member but Nightwolf's feat is consistent with the likes of Kabal and Cage so it's good to use. He'd still be higher than that since he scales to the former who has a much better feat, but it will stay in his profile as justification anyway.

Cetrion's feat looks good too

I'm not sure about Liu Kang's meteor blocking feat since we don't see where the meteors come from in the first place. All the meteors were off screen in the first time Kronika does that meteor throw. While the one you linked shows the meteors being rather close to her before she threw them, so the meteors haven't gained much speed from that short distance.

 

[Hellbeast]

I'm not sure about Liu Kang's meteor blocking feat since we don't see where the meteors come from in the first place. All the meteors were off screen in the first time Kronika does that meteor throw. While the one you linked shows the meteors being rather close to her before she threw them, so the meteors haven't gained much speed from that short distance.

Oh definitely, it’s be more of a supporting feat judging by the pulverisation (at least I think it’s pulverised since there’s nothing left after)

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Oh definitely, it’s be more of a supporting feat judging by the pulverisation (at least I think it’s pulverised since there’s nothing left after)

God Liu has better feats than pulverising fancy space rocks lol

 

[Antvasima]

Some calcs done here

The calculation blog has been accepted and can probably be applied.

Anyway, what are the conclusions so far here?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

The calcs that were shown are beneficial but still not enough for us to make a conclusion. The speed feat is a great addition to a few characters in the low tier but we don't have calcs that determine their physical stats like AP and durability. The other feat applies to Cetrion only and maybe a few who scale to her.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Do you have any feats available that can be calculated?

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I already suggested some in this thread, but maybe tomorrow I can bring some more.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. If you list them all, along with the evidence, I can probably ask some calc group members to help you out.

 

[Hellbeast]

Cetrion would definitely scale to:

1. Cosmic MILF Kronika
2. Shinnok (Since hes her equal and Corrupted Shinnok was supposedly a threat to the Elder Gods)
3. Green Halo Johnny (Battled Shinnok)
4. Fire God Liu (Bested an amped Kronika)
5. Lord of Time Shang Tsung (By his word is equal to Kronika before besting her in kombat and eating her soul)
6. Soul Krown Jacqui (Able to battle base Cetrion to a stand still)
7. Soul Krown Jax (^)

You could argue other top tiers backscale judging by The Aftermath Gang's performance against her and the White Revenants collectively threatening Super Saiyan Liu (We see Shao and Sindel are roughly equivalent to them)

I do agree we should find some other feats for the top tiers. Raiden has his lightning (I'm not sure of the timeframe tho) and hating bridges

Maybe I could start a Doc and categorize anything solid?

I̶f̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶K̶o̶m̶i̶c̶s̶ ̶w̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶o̶n̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶c̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶u̶p̶s̶c̶a̶l̶e̶ ̶f̶r̶o̶m̶ ̶K̶o̶t̶a̶l̶ ̶o̶n̶e̶s̶h̶o̶t̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶H̶i̶g̶h̶ ̶8̶-̶C̶ ̶O̶n̶i̶ ̶(̶C̶o̶n̶s̶i̶s̶t̶e̶n̶t̶)̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶T̶r̶e̶m̶o̶r̶'̶s̶ ̶C̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶B̶l̶o̶c̶k̶ ̶e̶a̶r̶t̶h̶q̶u̶a̶k̶e̶ ̶b̶u̶t̶ ̶D̶o̶m̶ ̶s̶a̶y̶s̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I copied this from the doc I posted, so I will just put it here for convenient reading. I added a few more feats too.

• Nightwolf slices a bullet from Erron’s guns mid-flight (done)
• Fujin generates a whirlwind that is fast and strong enough to flay a large animal
• While offscreen, Cetrion makes a big earthquake in her fight with Sindel & Nightwolf
• Future Jax uses his Ground Pound to plow through a ton of demons
• Scorpion creates a massive firestorm upon teleporting. The firestorm knocks back multiple demons when it spawns, which means it should probably scale to his AP.
• Not sure about this feat, but this scene and its concept art (1 and 2) implies that Raiden blasted holes through multiple floors of a building. The concept art also indicates that it was done with one bolt of lightning seeing how the roof in the first pic is destroyed and the lightning's flash can be seen in the windows of the building, all of this happening in one scene.
• Revenant Liu fills up an entire room with its own rocks. Some shots of the room for reference (1, 2, 3)

 

[DMUA]

I did get a pack of feats from King

I got to like

Exactly one, then immediately ran out of steam and just left it in my sandbox to finish later

Really should get to that

 

[Antvasima]

I copied this from the doc I posted, so I will just put it here for convenient reading. I added a few more feats too.

• Nightwolf slices a bullet from Erron’s guns mid-flight (done)
• Fujin generates a whirlwind that is fast and strong enough to flay a large animal
• While offscreen, Cetrion makes a big earthquake in her fight with Sindel & Nightwolf
• Future Jax uses his Ground Pound to plow through a ton of demons
• Scorpion creates a massive firestorm upon teleporting. The firestorm knocks back multiple demons when it spawns, which means it should probably scale to his AP.
• Not sure about this feat, but this scene and its concept art (1 and 2) implies that Raiden blasted holes through multiple floors of a building. The concept art also indicates that it was done with one bolt of lightning seeing how the roof in the first pic is destroyed and the lightning's flash can be seen in the windows of the building, all of this happening in one scene.
• Revenant Liu fills up an entire room with its own rocks. Some shots of the room for reference (1, 2, 3)

@Damage3245 @Dargoo_Faust @Wokistan @DemonGodMitchAubin

Would any of you be willing to help out with calculating this please?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

That statement about MK vs DC doesn't do much in our situation (for now) since we haven't seen any interaction with the two verses yet. Maybe when the next game comes out, we can actually talk about that.

So you take his word about the comics not being entirely canon, but ignore his word about the crossover being canon + injustice 2 dialogues saying mk vs dc happened, the endings of the two characters implied to have some of it actually happened and they came straight from MKX story in that place and teasing between them the mk11 timeline shenanigans, along mk11 story showing raiden vs liu kang from mk vs dc, let alone further confirming their visit has happened to injustice 2

Double standards as its finest

Dialogues are legitimate just because some are iffy, keyword some, it doesnt mean you will disregard them all now or nitpick from them

 

[Antvasima]

I copied this from the doc I posted, so I will just put it here for convenient reading. I added a few more feats too.

• Nightwolf slices a bullet from Erron’s guns mid-flight (done)
• Fujin generates a whirlwind that is fast and strong enough to flay a large animal
• While offscreen, Cetrion makes a big earthquake in her fight with Sindel & Nightwolf
• Future Jax uses his Ground Pound to plow through a ton of demons
• Scorpion creates a massive firestorm upon teleporting. The firestorm knocks back multiple demons when it spawns, which means it should probably scale to his AP.
• Not sure about this feat, but this scene and its concept art (1 and 2) implies that Raiden blasted holes through multiple floors of a building. The concept art also indicates that it was done with one bolt of lightning seeing how the roof in the first pic is destroyed and the lightning's flash can be seen in the windows of the building, all of this happening in one scene.
• Revenant Liu fills up an entire room with its own rocks. Some shots of the room for reference (1, 2, 3)

@Ugarik @Executor_N0 @Therefir @TheRustyOne @DemonGodMitchAubin

Would any of you be willing to calculate this?

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, please read our Crossovers rules. Characters are constantly rescaled to fit each other's power scales within them, so determining statistics from them is almost always very unreliable.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Re-read what i said about mk vs dc...

Its canon to both games, which are made by the same people, both in game and word of god