-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Major Medaka Box Revisions
- Thread starter Iapitus_The_Impaler
- Start date
- Status
Sleeps on thread
Iap sleeps on thread to
>Everything happens
Iap sleeps on thread to
>Everything happens
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #205
When you take a break from the internet for a day and cuz your family went on vacation and suddenly people jump on your thread and start downgrading stuff before you even finish upgrading the first stuff
Only got on this thread cuz someone pm'd me to let me know stuff was going down
someone wanna fill me in on why stuff is suddenly being downgraded
Only got on this thread cuz someone pm'd me to let me know stuff was going down
someone wanna fill me in on why stuff is suddenly being downgraded
- 547
- 303
Iapitus The Impaler
All 2-C upgrades were dismissed on the notion of not having enough feats. VS battle wiki doesn't verify Statements > Feats unlike Feats > Statements.
All 2-C upgrades were dismissed on the notion of not having enough feats. VS battle wiki doesn't verify Statements > Feats unlike Feats > Statements.
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #208
@Matthew
let's address this first. Kumagawa and Medaka are getting 2-C, who tf is everyone. Kumagawa is not really a liar in that sense. He is chaotic but when he lies this is not how he does it. He lies about intentions and shit, but not ever something like this, Show me an example when he has. Sure he lies about what he will and will not do, but never about the nature of his power. The only 2 times he ever specifically lied about the nature of his power was when he very specifically needed the enemy to think it works differently, during his fight with Shiranui, and he lied about the ability to erase what he has already erased, which he moments later said was a lie, and it was again, to gain an advantage over Zenkichi, to have him surrender. So he only lies about his powers when it give him an advantage and he disavouse it later; Kumagawa did neither in this case. In fact in the context of this moment, Kumagawa is dead serious. He is explicitly explaining why he can't use his ability freely, which makes sense. Naze and Zenkichi believe him, so we have no reason to do the same. Kumagawa is the kind of person who would spam his ability all the time if he were able, but this s him explaining why he doesn't. it makes more sense by that universe's internal logic to beliieve him over dismissing it because he lies about other matters.
the rule is that we do not draw if they are serious or not inherently, nor do we dismiss them outright.
If you want to step on my claims over the assumptions of others, that is completely non-sensicle. The validity of one of my claims caries no bar on the validity of the others, to apply otherwise is horribly falacious. I never claimed I wanted to upgrade her to such a status, infact if you notice I explicitly didn't want to place her at any tier. I wanted to give her transduality, yes, but I do not think transdualistic characters have to be 1-B or 1-A. Disagreeing on does not mean I missunderstand, infact i can provide counter examples but Ant said to drop it.
I would say the same to you. I also say that just because a power came from a meta-narative or deconstruction, does not mean they cannot be applied. You also assume that just because something is a joke does not mean it caries very real in universe implications. It is why Toon Force can be a quantifiable thing, and this is no different. I wrote my description of it above to prove that it is quantifiable enough to create an actual description and quantify it. Saying 'The Hero' cannot be applied norm quantified because "Its A Joke" wpiuld be the same as saying Toon Force cannot be applied or quantified because "its a Joke," if there is a difference then explain
I scaled only to the bar minimum of her power, which is 2-C, and cast that off as soon as other reasoning was found. Book Maker is in no way implied or portraid as a gag power. Kumagawa does not have the same meta protection that other characters have. He also used it on screen on Ajimu in non-joke places. Ajimu even said that Book Maker is one of the few powers that works on her without being a Hero.
I disagree, actually no, this is not subjective, you are wrong. To say something is not suited for Vs Debating, is flat out wrong. A joke series that deconstructs and makes jokes about shouned tropes and cliches cannot is not fit for Vs Debating? Go tell that to One Punch Man.
In other words: I do have proof of that All Fiction is 2-C, other than just his words. Context, Other characters believing him, etc. How about you pull up some scans next time or link a page. I know what Occam's razor is, in fact in this context it takes less assumptions put All Fiction at 2-C over dismissing it.
let's address this first. Kumagawa and Medaka are getting 2-C, who tf is everyone. Kumagawa is not really a liar in that sense. He is chaotic but when he lies this is not how he does it. He lies about intentions and shit, but not ever something like this, Show me an example when he has. Sure he lies about what he will and will not do, but never about the nature of his power. The only 2 times he ever specifically lied about the nature of his power was when he very specifically needed the enemy to think it works differently, during his fight with Shiranui, and he lied about the ability to erase what he has already erased, which he moments later said was a lie, and it was again, to gain an advantage over Zenkichi, to have him surrender. So he only lies about his powers when it give him an advantage and he disavouse it later; Kumagawa did neither in this case. In fact in the context of this moment, Kumagawa is dead serious. He is explicitly explaining why he can't use his ability freely, which makes sense. Naze and Zenkichi believe him, so we have no reason to do the same. Kumagawa is the kind of person who would spam his ability all the time if he were able, but this s him explaining why he doesn't. it makes more sense by that universe's internal logic to beliieve him over dismissing it because he lies about other matters.
the rule is that we do not draw if they are serious or not inherently, nor do we dismiss them outright.
If you want to step on my claims over the assumptions of others, that is completely non-sensicle. The validity of one of my claims caries no bar on the validity of the others, to apply otherwise is horribly falacious. I never claimed I wanted to upgrade her to such a status, infact if you notice I explicitly didn't want to place her at any tier. I wanted to give her transduality, yes, but I do not think transdualistic characters have to be 1-B or 1-A. Disagreeing on does not mean I missunderstand, infact i can provide counter examples but Ant said to drop it.
I would say the same to you. I also say that just because a power came from a meta-narative or deconstruction, does not mean they cannot be applied. You also assume that just because something is a joke does not mean it caries very real in universe implications. It is why Toon Force can be a quantifiable thing, and this is no different. I wrote my description of it above to prove that it is quantifiable enough to create an actual description and quantify it. Saying 'The Hero' cannot be applied norm quantified because "Its A Joke" wpiuld be the same as saying Toon Force cannot be applied or quantified because "its a Joke," if there is a difference then explain
I scaled only to the bar minimum of her power, which is 2-C, and cast that off as soon as other reasoning was found. Book Maker is in no way implied or portraid as a gag power. Kumagawa does not have the same meta protection that other characters have. He also used it on screen on Ajimu in non-joke places. Ajimu even said that Book Maker is one of the few powers that works on her without being a Hero.
I disagree, actually no, this is not subjective, you are wrong. To say something is not suited for Vs Debating, is flat out wrong. A joke series that deconstructs and makes jokes about shouned tropes and cliches cannot is not fit for Vs Debating? Go tell that to One Punch Man.
In other words: I do have proof of that All Fiction is 2-C, other than just his words. Context, Other characters believing him, etc. How about you pull up some scans next time or link a page. I know what Occam's razor is, in fact in this context it takes less assumptions put All Fiction at 2-C over dismissing it.
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #209
Oh crap I forgot I'm not supposed to do masive quotes like that, my bad
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #210
Matthew Schroeder said:
Every hax has a NLF application to it, of course. Ajimu described her as having a status. Actually, I was gonna recommend we don't use "The Hero" in match ups unless her enemies can counter it or other plot manipulation is at play.
Ajimu has it as a sort of staus, so it can be applied in vs threads as much as we apply the presence detection negation of gods in dragon ball characters and hax bypass of divinity from Nasuverse characters. Since the ability is applied as something that results from the person's status it should fly here. Let's be consistent about things.
- 21,783
- 4,826
I actually agree with The Hero being a passive plot manipulation making things work out in the character's favour.
Meta-fictional or not, the scans make it clear that being "The Hero" is an in-universe thing. And it's not like we haven't had meta-hax as a thing before .
Calling it an NLF is also not a reason not to add the ability to the profiles when it's clearly something. Assume it won't work against anyone higher than 3-D or even 4-D depending on where the Tier 2 stuff goes, like all non-physical hax, and call it passive plot/fate manipulation. There, done
Meta-fictional or not, the scans make it clear that being "The Hero" is an in-universe thing. And it's not like we haven't had meta-hax as a thing before .
Calling it an NLF is also not a reason not to add the ability to the profiles when it's clearly something. Assume it won't work against anyone higher than 3-D or even 4-D depending on where the Tier 2 stuff goes, like all non-physical hax, and call it passive plot/fate manipulation. There, done
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #212
WeeklyBattles said:
with the exception of Explicit reasons like Book Maker or "The Hero," show me feats of her supposed feats contradicting her having these powers.
Not claiming the powers should be necesarilly quantified, but to say she outright does not have them is something else entirely
- 4,460
- 1,089
As someone who's read the series recently, I think this seems like the most reasonable line of thinking regarding this ability.Monarch Laciel said:
Iapitus is also completely correct in his description of Kumagawa's status as a liar. There is literally no good reason for him to lie to Naze and Zenkichi, who may I remind everyone are some of the smartest characters in a series about geniuses and prodigies, and who are well-acquainted with Kumagawa's shenanigans and wouldn't believe him if they had any reason to assume he was lying, which they didn't.
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #214
Oh and I finished implementing the changes to the physical scaling stats, which are not what is currently in question
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #216
DexWald said:
The screw came from the back, so he didn't merely change it. If Kumagawa wanted to do a rush then he would have appeared behing her, like he usually does. He was obviously not doing his conventional attack. It sounds very unlike Kumagawa to specifically go behind someone, stab them, and then return to the exact same position. iirc no Abnormal or Minus are normal human in stats, I think it was implied they excelled at least somewhat in stats. Also she was the president of a school with a crap ton of abnormals, so I don't think she could have managed that with skills alone
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #217
I'm going to sleep for now
Hopefully I won't come back to wall level downgrades by the time I check this tmrw
Hopefully I won't come back to wall level downgrades by the time I check this tmrw
- 10,500
- 11,568
It isn't plot manipulation. Zenkichis Devil Style is the ability that is created to counter it, which is how he won the elections against Medaka.Monarch Laciel said:
So the Devil Style basically tells us how the protagonist ability works. And it works by the hero just being "really lucky". We know that because the Devil style can counter it by nullifying all coincidence. So it would fall under probability manipulation.
However if we list that we probably have to give kumagawa the opposite ability, given that he always loosing appears to be the antithesis to the protagonist always winning.
- 21,783
- 4,826
Kuma has the ability... to always lose?
well shit so
That can't be right, he's beaten plenty of other people hasn't he?
That can't be right, he's beaten plenty of other people hasn't he?
- 15,332
- 7,559
That's an ALF (All-Limits Fallacy)
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #228
Snip
His ability is also to nullify the throws of fate. Ajimu explicitly stated this. But this is also Plot-Manipulation-that-functions-nigh-identicaly-to-fate-manipulation, which in these cases usually gets listed as Plot Manipulation. I'm mobile posting right now (also why the formatting of this comment is weird), so I'll grab the scan when I get the chance
His ability is also to nullify the throws of fate. Ajimu explicitly stated this. But this is also Plot-Manipulation-that-functions-nigh-identicaly-to-fate-manipulation, which in these cases usually gets listed as Plot Manipulation. I'm mobile posting right now (also why the formatting of this comment is weird), so I'll grab the scan when I get the chance
- 10,500
- 11,568
Fate can refer to a number of different things, but one possibility is nothing, but that it is what decides the line up of coincidences. Hence the fate manipulation page lists Probabilty Manipulation as a type.
Given that we know that what the devil style does is eliminate coincidence, nullifying the throws of fate is likely not an additional effect, but the consequence of eliminating luck.
I also don't think we have any reliable statements that the mechanism behind the hero ability is plot manipulation. We know that they have this ability due to being the hero (typical "ability of the chosen one" scenario), but that only explains where the ability comes from, not how it works.
Additionally the effect is nothing but probability manipulation so listing it as plot manipulation is just adding vagueness for the sake of making it sound powerful. If anything it should be listed as "Probability Manipulation via Plot Manipulation", but as said I don't think we have reliable statements of plot manipulation.
Given that we know that what the devil style does is eliminate coincidence, nullifying the throws of fate is likely not an additional effect, but the consequence of eliminating luck.
I also don't think we have any reliable statements that the mechanism behind the hero ability is plot manipulation. We know that they have this ability due to being the hero (typical "ability of the chosen one" scenario), but that only explains where the ability comes from, not how it works.
Additionally the effect is nothing but probability manipulation so listing it as plot manipulation is just adding vagueness for the sake of making it sound powerful. If anything it should be listed as "Probability Manipulation via Plot Manipulation", but as said I don't think we have reliable statements of plot manipulation.
- 4,460
- 1,089
I also think probability manipulation sounds like the most accurate means of quantifying it. It's an extremely potent form of Prob Manip, but still Prob Manip.
- 484
- 55
Saying that "Medaka's fate changes to let her win" and saying that "The plot alters Medaka's fate to let her win" is basically the same thing, so it doesn't change much.
However, since the reason that happens is that she's the main character, it qualifies better as plot manipulation. Furthermore, Anshin'in decided to change the plot to defeat Medaka, rather than alter her fate or probabilities, which further confirms that what made Medaka invincible is not fate manipulation, but plot itself.
About Devil's Style, every example brought up by Anshin'in (like "The enemy's special attack won't miss a vital area" or "You won't fight from weakest to strongest in a tournament") was a cliche that usually happen to the protagonist, so we should just consider "coincidences" as a cause of plot itself, and "negating coincidences" as negating the plot's influence.
In short, the plot spins around main characters (which is why they have passive plot manipulation), which causes coincidences to happen, and Devil's Style simply negates them.
However, since the reason that happens is that she's the main character, it qualifies better as plot manipulation. Furthermore, Anshin'in decided to change the plot to defeat Medaka, rather than alter her fate or probabilities, which further confirms that what made Medaka invincible is not fate manipulation, but plot itself.
About Devil's Style, every example brought up by Anshin'in (like "The enemy's special attack won't miss a vital area" or "You won't fight from weakest to strongest in a tournament") was a cliche that usually happen to the protagonist, so we should just consider "coincidences" as a cause of plot itself, and "negating coincidences" as negating the plot's influence.
In short, the plot spins around main characters (which is why they have passive plot manipulation), which causes coincidences to happen, and Devil's Style simply negates them.
- 21,783
- 4,826
I'm fine with passive probability manipulation until I get more scans saying it's plot.
- 16,606
- 1,787
- Thread starter
- #239
Alright, let's lay out some scans I got
First off, forgot to give this scan which actually helps my case of us believing Kumagawa on the universe thing. Even when Kumagawa lied about him being able to bring back Zenkichi's vision (which was to gain a specifc advantage mind you) Naze did not believe him. So this proves she is not so guilible that she would meerly believe everything Kumagawa says, so since she believed him on the universal erasure, this more backs up its validity
@Antvasima have a made a complelling argument that Kumagawa's word is vable to be Low 2-C or 2-C? (my response to Matt in combo with what I wrote above)
Found another fact about "The Hero," apparently it is less viable in a free for all. I'm sure there's a meta joke in there somewhere
Ajimu likens Devil Style to be stepping on the works of other, older, authors and main characters who came before him. This feels like a heavy implication that it does have basis within the story. And on a side note, how exactly does probability manipulation induce PIS? We know it can. If we are going to list it as meer probability manipulation, then we should also list the ability to induce PIS/CIS along with it. I can deel with that, since it ties up the loose ends
It is definitely plot based, because otherwise this wouldn't have effected the main character status
And as for the plot proof, Naze states that the ability also nullifies it [The author/the plot] and stops the whims of fate from interfeering with the battle
First off, forgot to give this scan which actually helps my case of us believing Kumagawa on the universe thing. Even when Kumagawa lied about him being able to bring back Zenkichi's vision (which was to gain a specifc advantage mind you) Naze did not believe him. So this proves she is not so guilible that she would meerly believe everything Kumagawa says, so since she believed him on the universal erasure, this more backs up its validity
@Antvasima have a made a complelling argument that Kumagawa's word is vable to be Low 2-C or 2-C? (my response to Matt in combo with what I wrote above)
Found another fact about "The Hero," apparently it is less viable in a free for all. I'm sure there's a meta joke in there somewhere
Ajimu likens Devil Style to be stepping on the works of other, older, authors and main characters who came before him. This feels like a heavy implication that it does have basis within the story. And on a side note, how exactly does probability manipulation induce PIS? We know it can. If we are going to list it as meer probability manipulation, then we should also list the ability to induce PIS/CIS along with it. I can deel with that, since it ties up the loose ends
It is definitely plot based, because otherwise this wouldn't have effected the main character status
And as for the plot proof, Naze states that the ability also nullifies it [The author/the plot] and stops the whims of fate from interfeering with the battle
- 484
- 55
Since I've finally read all the comments, I'd like to give my opinion about tiers.
I disagree with 2-C All Fiction for Kumagawa. Although he stated that he can erase the entire reality (and there's no reason to think he lied) there's nothing that suggests that Kumagawa knew about other universes, which means that for him "the entire reality" could just mean his universe and the classroom dimension. If there's any proof that he knew about multiple universes I could agree, but I personally don't remember anything like that. However, I agree with the Low 2-C tier, both because of his statement and for PaChi's reasons (Universal range + able to affect space-time = Low 2-C).
Medaka's All Fiction should be 20% stronger thanks to The End, but that still doesn't make it 2-C, since the difference beetween a Low 2-C and a 2-C is not quantifiable, therefore Medaka's All Fiction is still Low 2-C (or "at least" Low 2-C).
However, as I said in a previous comment, there is someone who could get a 2-C upgrade: the non-equals, Ajimu and Hanten. Since Anshin'in is nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipresent, it makes sense to say that she knew about other universes as well, therefore her statements about "being able to do anything" should make her at least 2-C, possibly much higher (based on her "boss" skills). Hanten should be somewhat comparable to her, which would make him at least 2-C as well.
This would scale to Bookmaker and "The Hero" (although I'm not sure we can use those for tiers, since it's not AP).
In short, the tiers would be:
Kumagawa: Unknown, likely Low 2-C with All Fiction (has universal range and is able to affect the space-time, Kumagawa stated it could erase the entire reality), likely at least 2-C with Bookmaker (sealed Anshin'in for 3 years and was considered the only skill in history capable to affect her ).
Anshin'in: Unknown, likely at least 2-C (stated that she could "do anything" despite probably knowing about other universes), possibly much higher (stated to be able to trascend dimensions).
Hanten: Unknown, likely at least 2-C (somewhat comparable to Anshin'in).
Medaka: Unknown, likely at least Low 2-C with All Fiction, likely at least 2-C with Bookmaker and Plot Manipulation (Anshin'in stated that nobody could defeat her ).
Iihiko: Unknown, likely at least 2-C with plot manipulation (defeated Anshin'in more than a hundred million timesand killed her with just a rubber band ).
However, to be fair I still think it would be better to leave Iihiko and the not-equals as Unknown and/or banning them from vs threads, since they're impossible to quantify. Also, I don't know if being able to seal 2-C characters warrants for a 2-C upgrade, maybe "likely Low 2-C with All Fiction, able to affect at least 2-C beings with Bookmaker" or something like that would be better. The same goes for plot manipulation.
I disagree with 2-C All Fiction for Kumagawa. Although he stated that he can erase the entire reality (and there's no reason to think he lied) there's nothing that suggests that Kumagawa knew about other universes, which means that for him "the entire reality" could just mean his universe and the classroom dimension. If there's any proof that he knew about multiple universes I could agree, but I personally don't remember anything like that. However, I agree with the Low 2-C tier, both because of his statement and for PaChi's reasons (Universal range + able to affect space-time = Low 2-C).
Medaka's All Fiction should be 20% stronger thanks to The End, but that still doesn't make it 2-C, since the difference beetween a Low 2-C and a 2-C is not quantifiable, therefore Medaka's All Fiction is still Low 2-C (or "at least" Low 2-C).
However, as I said in a previous comment, there is someone who could get a 2-C upgrade: the non-equals, Ajimu and Hanten. Since Anshin'in is nigh-omniscient and nigh-omnipresent, it makes sense to say that she knew about other universes as well, therefore her statements about "being able to do anything" should make her at least 2-C, possibly much higher (based on her "boss" skills). Hanten should be somewhat comparable to her, which would make him at least 2-C as well.
This would scale to Bookmaker and "The Hero" (although I'm not sure we can use those for tiers, since it's not AP).
In short, the tiers would be:
Kumagawa: Unknown, likely Low 2-C with All Fiction (has universal range and is able to affect the space-time, Kumagawa stated it could erase the entire reality), likely at least 2-C with Bookmaker (sealed Anshin'in for 3 years and was considered the only skill in history capable to affect her ).
Anshin'in: Unknown, likely at least 2-C (stated that she could "do anything" despite probably knowing about other universes), possibly much higher (stated to be able to trascend dimensions).
Hanten: Unknown, likely at least 2-C (somewhat comparable to Anshin'in).
Medaka: Unknown, likely at least Low 2-C with All Fiction, likely at least 2-C with Bookmaker and Plot Manipulation (Anshin'in stated that nobody could defeat her ).
Iihiko: Unknown, likely at least 2-C with plot manipulation (defeated Anshin'in more than a hundred million timesand killed her with just a rubber band ).
However, to be fair I still think it would be better to leave Iihiko and the not-equals as Unknown and/or banning them from vs threads, since they're impossible to quantify. Also, I don't know if being able to seal 2-C characters warrants for a 2-C upgrade, maybe "likely Low 2-C with All Fiction, able to affect at least 2-C beings with Bookmaker" or something like that would be better. The same goes for plot manipulation.
- Status
