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Major Medaka Box Revisions
- Thread starter Iapitus_The_Impaler
- Start date
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I disagree 100%. Able to affect space and time and having universal range =/= Low 2-C, and looking at the scans I still see 0 evidence of Tier 2 levels of power.
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- #243
Are you gonna address any specifc arguments or are you just gonna sit back and say 'I don't see it?' Cuz several other people see it. Also were you addressing Kami's comment or several peoples' arguments
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I already addressed it several times but I can address it again, although no new arguments are being brought up.
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No one should when it comes to upgrading people from Tier 8 to Tier 2.
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I agree completely with everything said here. The Book Maker sealing still seems a bit iffy so maybe saying possibly 2-C rather than likely 2-C would be more reasonable.Kami95 said:
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Also @ Matthew.
I do agree with you that we shouldn't take statements as perfectly reliable facts, but considering how consistent the stated verbal evidence seems to be, and the amount of reasons we have to believe it's true, would ranking them as possibly Low 2-C/2-C be acceptable?
Even if the statements aren't 100% guaranteed to be true, completely ignoring them and writing them off due to possibly being false seems to be an odd choice.
I do agree with you that we shouldn't take statements as perfectly reliable facts, but considering how consistent the stated verbal evidence seems to be, and the amount of reasons we have to believe it's true, would ranking them as possibly Low 2-C/2-C be acceptable?
Even if the statements aren't 100% guaranteed to be true, completely ignoring them and writing them off due to possibly being false seems to be an odd choice.
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@Antvasima
I still want to see Matthew points in countering Lapitus latest post.
Statements should still be quantifiable with many resources or other character backing up said statement within the verse. I mean Vs battle is known for allowing such statements to fly with certain series like Dragon Ball Super when it comes to statements. For example, it is listed as a statement from Kefla herself that she could blow away and entire universe with one shot. So, why is that certain series on VS Battle like Dragon Ball Super are able to go off statements without the set of feats to serve as proof? Is it because there is major favoritism for Dragon Ball Super it gets a free pass?
I still want to see Matthew points in countering Lapitus latest post.
Statements should still be quantifiable with many resources or other character backing up said statement within the verse. I mean Vs battle is known for allowing such statements to fly with certain series like Dragon Ball Super when it comes to statements. For example, it is listed as a statement from Kefla herself that she could blow away and entire universe with one shot. So, why is that certain series on VS Battle like Dragon Ball Super are able to go off statements without the set of feats to serve as proof? Is it because there is major favoritism for Dragon Ball Super it gets a free pass?
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I completely agree with Jordan. I'm not saying we should put anyone at straight up tier 2, but there ARE statements that support this, and we can't completely ignore them. "Unknow, possibly low 2-C" seems a pretty good way to say "We don't know how strong they are, but some unproven statements suggest that they MAY be low 2-C".
@Mr. Common Sense: In that case Kefla also scales to Goku, so the statement is "proven", and it's better to avoid bringing that up here anyway.
@Mr. Common Sense: In that case Kefla also scales to Goku, so the statement is "proven", and it's better to avoid bringing that up here anyway.
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>Amount of reasons
I see none, really. The statement seems super exaggerated.
I see none, really. The statement seems super exaggerated.
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Kefka would be Low 2-C / 3-A even without the statement, in that case it's just a supporting statement.
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- #256
Do you consider it reliable proof? I proved it is substantiated by reliable sources within the manga. I addressed everyone of matt's points and simply him "not seeing it" is not a refuteAntvasima said:
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- #257
"Not seeing it" is not a refute, especially when other people do "see" itMatthew Schroeder said:
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I haven't seen any reliable proof. I looked at all your scans and none of them prove that All Fiction can destroy multiple universes.
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- #259
To be clear, i initially only claimed Low 2-C all fiction. Even if he can only destroy 1 universe, or effect something on that level, that still warrants an upgrade. And anyway, you are the minority on that belief. I'm gonna count up the votes, because many other people do see it. So if we fall back on just view points then the upgrade is supported
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Votes about Low 2-C or 2-C Kumagawa and Medaka. Authority Points are also noted
9 + 2 Authority Points People who "See" it or Agree : Super Saiyan God Julian, ShrekAlmighty, LukaSolosYourVerse, Mr. Common Sense, KamiYasha (Authority Points +1), Wuta420, TheHadouCyberspaceWitch, Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97, Monarch Laciel (Authority Points +1)
3 + 2 Authority Points People who don't "See it" or Disagree: KarmodF, Matthew Schroeder (Authority Points +1), Aeyu (Authority points +1)
Undecided/Nuetra/Idk: Antavisma (seems to be mostly nutral but not sure)
9 + 2 Authority Points People who "See" it or Agree : Super Saiyan God Julian, ShrekAlmighty, LukaSolosYourVerse, Mr. Common Sense, KamiYasha (Authority Points +1), Wuta420, TheHadouCyberspaceWitch, Jordanbairdcreaturemaster97, Monarch Laciel (Authority Points +1)
3 + 2 Authority Points People who don't "See it" or Disagree: KarmodF, Matthew Schroeder (Authority Points +1), Aeyu (Authority points +1)
Undecided/Nuetra/Idk: Antavisma (seems to be mostly nutral but not sure)
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- #265
Nah, I just did authority points because i wanted to show how many people with authority on each side are on each side. I know Ant doesn't like it when people undermine authority so I wanted to show I recognise its roll here. Really this is just to show that if we are going to fall back purely on view points, then view alone supports the upgrade
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- #266
perhaps not, but I have faith and respect for Antvisma, so I hope he won't let this go badPaChi2 said:
InB4 I get banned by Matt or someone else
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>Authority points
What the hell are you even doing. Are you honestly trying so hard to argue from authority right now?
It matters not if you and 6 of your friends accept this, specially since a lot of the people in this thread are barely active members of the wiki and just seem to be intent on upgrading Medaka, some resorting to bashing on message walls when they were downgraded back.
As it stands, there is no real, conclusive, objective proof that All Fiction does what the statement claims, and your speculation just forms a non-sequitur that because character A was right about A, then they would automatically be right about B as well, despite the fact that the assertion that All Fiction can destroy all of existence is astronomically greater than any other assessement in the series, and does requires proportionally more proof as well.
This was literally just resolved. All arguments in favor were addressed multiple times and all scans answered. You don't need to just keep posting the same argument over and over, and hide behind the shield of "Other people agree". That alone won't guaratee acceptance, or else no discussion would ever be concluded.
As it stands, Low 2-C All Fiction is an unsupported speculative hyperbolic statement that you are trying to use to upgrade Tier 8 characters to Tier 2 without a shred of conclusive evidence or feats. This upgrade won't occur, and it is in fact against the rules to do such a jarring upgrade without feats, nor will it be placed as "Possibly" just to throw fans of the series a bone, as that is unprofessional.
What the hell are you even doing. Are you honestly trying so hard to argue from authority right now?
It matters not if you and 6 of your friends accept this, specially since a lot of the people in this thread are barely active members of the wiki and just seem to be intent on upgrading Medaka, some resorting to bashing on message walls when they were downgraded back.
As it stands, there is no real, conclusive, objective proof that All Fiction does what the statement claims, and your speculation just forms a non-sequitur that because character A was right about A, then they would automatically be right about B as well, despite the fact that the assertion that All Fiction can destroy all of existence is astronomically greater than any other assessement in the series, and does requires proportionally more proof as well.
This was literally just resolved. All arguments in favor were addressed multiple times and all scans answered. You don't need to just keep posting the same argument over and over, and hide behind the shield of "Other people agree". That alone won't guaratee acceptance, or else no discussion would ever be concluded.
As it stands, Low 2-C All Fiction is an unsupported speculative hyperbolic statement that you are trying to use to upgrade Tier 8 characters to Tier 2 without a shred of conclusive evidence or feats. This upgrade won't occur, and it is in fact against the rules to do such a jarring upgrade without feats, nor will it be placed as "Possibly" just to throw fans of the series a bone, as that is unprofessional.
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Stop it. It's this type of cheeky and sarcastic posting that ruins threads in the first place. Be an adult, debate honestly and without insults and jabs, and accept the final results, and then move on.Iapitus The Impaler said:
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I honestly agree with Matthew here, if passed, this will probably be the single largest upgrade in the history of this wiki, it is going to need much more than vague statements, it is going to need an actual on panel feat of universe busting.
I honestly don't see why Medaka Box needs tiers at all, all characters should be unknown, it is a parody series that follows little to no logic.
I honestly don't see why Medaka Box needs tiers at all, all characters should be unknown, it is a parody series that follows little to no logic.
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@Matthew
I do see your points about bias and cyclical logic (Particularly considering the meta involved), but I still don't understand what the problem would be with using "possibly", as opposed to completely deciding not to acknowledge that reliable in-universe sources described the stats as being correct.
To me it seems more professional and logical to acknowledge the possibility, rather than stick to the status quo, again because there's a possibility that the statements are complete hyperbole, despite it not making any sense for them to be used as such within the story.
I do see your points about bias and cyclical logic (Particularly considering the meta involved), but I still don't understand what the problem would be with using "possibly", as opposed to completely deciding not to acknowledge that reliable in-universe sources described the stats as being correct.
To me it seems more professional and logical to acknowledge the possibility, rather than stick to the status quo, again because there's a possibility that the statements are complete hyperbole, despite it not making any sense for them to be used as such within the story.
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Because the possibly implies an upgrade. When something is rated as possibly, it is because of a strong possibility, rather than just a rare change in a blue moon. Likely is for things which are the most probably, with the rating before the "Likely" generally being a lowball.
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Okay, thank you. That makes more sense.Matthew Schroeder said:
I have something I was planning to add to the conversation that nobody seems to have mentioned yet, but at this point I'm afraid of setting the bomb off again.
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Well, I am leaning towards agreeing with Matthew here. I also like the series, and consider it brilliant in terms of layered storytelling and compressing a massive amount of concepts and ideas into a limited space (I tried to do something similar in my own fanfiction story a few years earlier), but that is no reason to give it special privileges in terms of not requiring good evidence for massive upgrades.
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@Antvasima
That seems fair, but can I have permission to offer one last bit of evidence as a possible refute to Matt's claims? If he still has reasons not to use it, I'll bow out of the conversation until I feel I can provide more input.
That seems fair, but can I have permission to offer one last bit of evidence as a possible refute to Matt's claims? If he still has reasons not to use it, I'll bow out of the conversation until I feel I can provide more input.
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@Matthew
No, infact the opposite. I'm trying to stop this from getting rejected purely because a few people in positions of authority reject it.
Most of these people I don't actually know, but reached out to me over this. Do you wanna explain how people being mostly innactive somehow makes their views less valid? When someone comes to my wall to vent, and then you immediatel jump to ban them, does that make their point any less valid?
"As it stands, there is no real, conclusive, objective proof that All Fiction does what the statement claims"
The statement itself is proof. The context validates it.
"your speculation just forms a non-sequitur that because character A was right about A, then they would automatically be right about B as well"
Proove its a non-sequitur, because I used the characters to specifically debunk your point. You said Kumagawa was not a reliable character source, so I responded by proving he is on matters like this and got some consistently reliable characters to support the claim and make your problem with it no longer an issue
"All Fiction can destroy all of existence is astronomically greater than any other assessement in the series, and does requires proportionally more proof as well"
not really actually. You can say that individually the statements are hyperbolic or invalid, but when taken as a whole they work. What would it take to convince you? and don't be vague, be specific. And similar to the Light Speed Hyperbole thing, how many cases does it take of universal or above statements and feats before they can no longer be dismissed as meer Hyperbole. And none of these have been contradicted, if they have then show me a case.
1) The All Fiction Erasing the Universe we talked about
2) Kumagawa Erasing Color (Whether physics manipulation or conceptual manipulation), even if it is not a DC feat he could still delete like molecular cohesion or something and pretty much destroy everything. Note that whether this is conceptual or physics manipulation on a universal scale, it would still apply
3) Ajimu tanking the Big Bang
4) Medaka Being stated to create a universe
5) Styles that Surpass dimensions (note that I am claiming Styles are actually this tier, the point of them is that they are tier irrelevent but it stands to point that they work on this scale)
6) Book Maker and All Fiction work on Hanten and Ajimu (Even at their lowest tiers relying purely on feats, they are atleast Universal+)
Except I addressed all of the negetive claims aswell, just earlier. Did you even read my arguments? If I recycled an argument, then it was because it had been adressed before. The Majority of my comment was new. You shouldn't hide behind the sheild of "I simply don't see it" either. I only brought up more people agreeing then not because you fell back on subjective views, and the only way to really judge the subjective is via majority
You have yet to prove they were hyperbolic, Kumagawa was dead serious in that moment. Actually, I'm trying to change Unknown tier hax to tier 8 hax. Do not misrepresent my intentions. I gave plenty of both evidence and feats, simply because you "don't see them" doesn't invalidate them. Oh it won't occur because you say it won't? What other than appeals to authority (I already proved Authority falls neither way), says that it will not? I have faith in Ant that he will atleast hear me out on this and not shut down the argument because You "don't see it" and don't like it. Going from Unknown to known is not all that jaring, especially not in a verse that is almost 100% hax based
No, infact the opposite. I'm trying to stop this from getting rejected purely because a few people in positions of authority reject it.
Most of these people I don't actually know, but reached out to me over this. Do you wanna explain how people being mostly innactive somehow makes their views less valid? When someone comes to my wall to vent, and then you immediatel jump to ban them, does that make their point any less valid?
"As it stands, there is no real, conclusive, objective proof that All Fiction does what the statement claims"
The statement itself is proof. The context validates it.
"your speculation just forms a non-sequitur that because character A was right about A, then they would automatically be right about B as well"
Proove its a non-sequitur, because I used the characters to specifically debunk your point. You said Kumagawa was not a reliable character source, so I responded by proving he is on matters like this and got some consistently reliable characters to support the claim and make your problem with it no longer an issue
"All Fiction can destroy all of existence is astronomically greater than any other assessement in the series, and does requires proportionally more proof as well"
not really actually. You can say that individually the statements are hyperbolic or invalid, but when taken as a whole they work. What would it take to convince you? and don't be vague, be specific. And similar to the Light Speed Hyperbole thing, how many cases does it take of universal or above statements and feats before they can no longer be dismissed as meer Hyperbole. And none of these have been contradicted, if they have then show me a case.
1) The All Fiction Erasing the Universe we talked about
2) Kumagawa Erasing Color (Whether physics manipulation or conceptual manipulation), even if it is not a DC feat he could still delete like molecular cohesion or something and pretty much destroy everything. Note that whether this is conceptual or physics manipulation on a universal scale, it would still apply
3) Ajimu tanking the Big Bang
4) Medaka Being stated to create a universe
5) Styles that Surpass dimensions (note that I am claiming Styles are actually this tier, the point of them is that they are tier irrelevent but it stands to point that they work on this scale)
6) Book Maker and All Fiction work on Hanten and Ajimu (Even at their lowest tiers relying purely on feats, they are atleast Universal+)
Except I addressed all of the negetive claims aswell, just earlier. Did you even read my arguments? If I recycled an argument, then it was because it had been adressed before. The Majority of my comment was new. You shouldn't hide behind the sheild of "I simply don't see it" either. I only brought up more people agreeing then not because you fell back on subjective views, and the only way to really judge the subjective is via majority
You have yet to prove they were hyperbolic, Kumagawa was dead serious in that moment. Actually, I'm trying to change Unknown tier hax to tier 8 hax. Do not misrepresent my intentions. I gave plenty of both evidence and feats, simply because you "don't see them" doesn't invalidate them. Oh it won't occur because you say it won't? What other than appeals to authority (I already proved Authority falls neither way), says that it will not? I have faith in Ant that he will atleast hear me out on this and not shut down the argument because You "don't see it" and don't like it. Going from Unknown to known is not all that jaring, especially not in a verse that is almost 100% hax based
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"a lot of the people in this thread are barely active members of the wiki and just seem to be intent on upgrading Medaka, some resorting to bashing on message walls when they were downgraded back"
Since you're probably referring to me, I just meant that maybe someone listed as a knowledgeable member could have something to add that we didn't think about, since we were repeating the same things for a while. I actually disagree with the 2-C upgrade for AF too, and I'm happy it was downgraded.
Coming back to the main subject, I still disagree with you to an extent. First of all, we have a statement, and even if it's not supported by feats we can't just ignore it when there's nothing that condradicts it either. I would agree with you if it was the only universe-level statement of the series, but it isn't, as the ability to create a universe was mentioned twice in the series (one as Ajimu's boss skill and one as Medaka's trampling skill).
There are also mentions about higher-dimensional power, like for Iihiko (yes, I understand it was just a way to say that he gets his strenght from plot, but since plot is a major element in the series, and we already accepted it as a skill, I don't see why it shouldn't count), Style being able to overcome dimensions and Ajimu having a skill that supposedly trascend dimensions too, which means that 4D power is not something completely impossible.
Yes, they are only statements or brief mentions inside some walls of skills. I realize that there's no feat and I'm not saying that they are undoubtely Low 2-C. But it's certainly more than "a rare change in a blue moon" and it might be likely enough to put Medaka and Kumagawa as "Unknow, possibly Low 2-C".
Since you're probably referring to me, I just meant that maybe someone listed as a knowledgeable member could have something to add that we didn't think about, since we were repeating the same things for a while. I actually disagree with the 2-C upgrade for AF too, and I'm happy it was downgraded.
Coming back to the main subject, I still disagree with you to an extent. First of all, we have a statement, and even if it's not supported by feats we can't just ignore it when there's nothing that condradicts it either. I would agree with you if it was the only universe-level statement of the series, but it isn't, as the ability to create a universe was mentioned twice in the series (one as Ajimu's boss skill and one as Medaka's trampling skill).
There are also mentions about higher-dimensional power, like for Iihiko (yes, I understand it was just a way to say that he gets his strenght from plot, but since plot is a major element in the series, and we already accepted it as a skill, I don't see why it shouldn't count), Style being able to overcome dimensions and Ajimu having a skill that supposedly trascend dimensions too, which means that 4D power is not something completely impossible.
Yes, they are only statements or brief mentions inside some walls of skills. I realize that there's no feat and I'm not saying that they are undoubtely Low 2-C. But it's certainly more than "a rare change in a blue moon" and it might be likely enough to put Medaka and Kumagawa as "Unknow, possibly Low 2-C".
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There was a mythos character that went from star level to outerversal iirc. I have a feat of a character tanking the big band, does that work?LordWhis said:
I didn't think they did either, up until my thread got shut down because someone thought Unknown meant that it could not have the position argued. Said I had to makes this thread. Its a pardoy but it has consistent in universe logic, even if it is mind bending. Parody verses can have set tiers
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All of your claims have 0 evidence behind them, I am sorry. Now you are just arguing with headcanons such as Ajimu bieng higher-dimensional and tanking the Big Bang, neither of which she has done.
Arguing with gigantic posts that make claims without a shred of evidence and post no scans will take you nowhere.
A statement is not a proof. A statement is a statement, and you need evidence behind it.
Arguing with gigantic posts that make claims without a shred of evidence and post no scans will take you nowhere.
A statement is not a proof. A statement is a statement, and you need evidence behind it.
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The higher-dimensional thing falls into the same category as her other skills, which is a whole other subset of this argument, but she was shown being present in the Big Bang in a flashbackMatthew Schroeder said:
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@Iapitus:
Since this thread will probably get locked soon, no offense, but your authority points system is the worst idea ever. It is downright undemocratic.
It doesn't even succeed at proving what you wanted to prove because there are just as many admins on your side as are on the other side.
Since this thread will probably get locked soon, no offense, but your authority points system is the worst idea ever. It is downright undemocratic.
It doesn't even succeed at proving what you wanted to prove because there are just as many admins on your side as are on the other side.
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