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Major Dark Souls 3 Scaling Changes.

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I saw this and I'm all in for fixing the whole verse (specially ds2 besto game in the series) since someone posted some stuff I said a while ago.
 
I just want to say that we currently don't scale Dark Souls linearly since it doesn't make sense for some characters to be vastly stronger than others. For example, Oceiros, Dancer, and Dragonslayer Armor would be 4-C.

But I'm currently working on a revision for Dark Souls since someone made it aware to me that the Archdragons wouldn't have survived the war before lightning if they were lower in AP than Gwyn. So expect major scaling changes.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
So that's one Staff Member agreeing with this. Which of the other bosses are gonna be affected by this? Is it everyone Irithyll and beyond or what?
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M3X is a retired CGM, don't jump the gun, man.

As Ovens says, we don't scale it linearly because everyone scaling directly to the Abyss Watchers is really quite silly.

That said I strongly disagree with Ovens' implication about the strength of dragons given they were fought and killed by normal knights. Gwyn was not responsible for every single dragon kill in the Age of Ancients. Stop this.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
M3X is a retired CGM, don't jump the gun, man.

As Ovens says, we don't scale it linearly because everyone scaling directly to the Abyss Watchers is really quite silly.

That said I strongly disagree with Ovens' implication about the strength of dragons given they were fought and killed by normal knights. Gwyn was not responsible for every single dragon kill in the Age of Ancients. Stop this.
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I said that a long time ago when he was still here. I know he doesn't count anymore.

That would still make the Ashen One Lord of Cinder Level basically right out the gate though since they're an early-game boss fight.

It was literally stated that it took scores of Knights to kill a single Dragon by Gough so they clearly don't scale one to one with each other.
 
That would still make the Ashen One Lord of Cinder Level basically right out the gate though since they're an early-game boss fight.

It was literally stated that it took scores of Knights to kill a single Dragon by Gough so they clearly don't scale one to one with each other.
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I mean we already have the Ashen One at Lord of Cinder level.

Yes, it did, much like it took the Abyss Watchers an entire legion to become Lord of Cinder. So do they scale or not?
 
Mr._Bambu said:
I mean we already have the Ashen One at Lord of Cinder level.

Yes, it did, much like it took the Abyss Watchers an entire legion to become Lord of Cinder. So do they scale or not?
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Yeah, but we only have him there at the end of the game for some reason even though he should be 4-C in his Mid-Game Key at the bare minimum since he literally killed 3 LoCs pretty much back to back.

The difference here being is that they can literally poor all of their power into one guy unlike the Knights, so at worst only the 2nd Phase Abyss Watcher should be 4-C.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Yeah, but we only have him there at the end of the game for some reason even though he should be 4-C in his Mid-Game Key at the bare minimum since he literally killed 3 LoCs pretty much back to back.

The difference here being is that they can literally poor all of their power into one guy unlike the Knights, so at worst only the 2nd Phase Abyss Watcher should be 4-C.
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You seem to be assuming a canon progression. Only the Abyss Watchers would be necessary to fight prior to the Nameless King, and they're in a very strange position. Strange enough to warrant caution in wantonly upscaling, I feel.

The Abyss Watchers are a legion, a legion that may not even entirely be in their gravesite. What we fight are the dregs, the remnants of their legion battling one another. Who can say if that was all? In fact, it seems likely that it isn't, due to the Follower Legion's very existence. So no, I don't feel very comfortable upgrading the Ashen One based on that.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
You seem to be assuming a canon progression. Only the Abyss Watchers would be necessary to fight prior to the Nameless King, and they're in a very strange position. Strange enough to warrant caution in wantonly upscaling, I feel.

The Abyss Watchers are a legion, a legion that may not even entirely be in their gravesite. What we fight are the dregs, the remnants of their legion battling one another. Who can say if that was all? In fact, it seems likely that it isn't, due to the Follower Legion's very existence. So no, I don't feel very comfortable upgrading the Ashen One based on that.
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Bro, you literally can't fight the Nameless King before the other Lords of Cinder unless you break how the game was intended to be played by killing the Dancer and Oceiros before anyone else. Why the **** would he be what we scale the Ashen One too when he can't even be fought until you go through a late game area?

The Followers weren't the ones who linked the flame, the Abyss Watchers were. They all were Resurrected at the same time from their Graves and then they all ****** off to Farron so yes that is all of them.
 
XSOULOFCINDERX said:
Bro, you literally can't fight the Nameless King before the other Lords of Cinder unless you break how the game was intended to be played by killing the Dancer and Oceiros before anyone else. Why the **** would he be what we scale the Ashen One too when he can't even be fought until you go through a late game area?

The Followers weren't the ones who linked the flame, the Abyss Watchers were. They all were Resurrected at the same time from their Graves and then they all ****** off to Farron so yes that is all of them.
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So the argument is canon progression? The game intends for you to end up at the Soul of Cinder. The developers included non-linear paths before then. It's not as though fighting Dancer early is a non-canon glitch or something.

No shit, homie. But the Followers existence implies the existence of lost Abyss Watchers.

When a warrior of Farron fell to the Abyss, the tall, lean Followers, with their hollowed eyes, quiety appeared in groups to hunt them down.


Farron and its Watchers fell to ruin, but the Followers survived as a wandering pack of Hollows.
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So we objectively do not know how many Abyss Watchers it took to fuel the kiln.

Regardless. I disagree with scaling the Ashen One to the full Lord of Cinder stats by early game.
 
so like does this mean i can finally put pinwheel against soul of cinder? (pinwheel is the god tier of dark souls, no cap)
 
Mr._Bambu said:
So the argument is canon progression? The game intends for you to end up at the Soul of Cinder. The developers included non-linear paths before then. It's not as though fighting Dancer early is a non-canon glitch or something.

No shit, homie. But the Followers existence implies the existence of lost Abyss Watchers.



So we objectively do not know how many Abyss Watchers it took to fuel the kiln.

Regardless. I disagree with scaling the Ashen One to the full Lord of Cinder stats by early game.
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This would be mid-game ashen one so not as big of a jump
 
Shmeatywerbenmanjenson said:
This would be mid-game ashen one so not as big of a jump
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It may as well be early game. In terms of progression assuming a neutral mindset, the Abyss Watchers are equivalent to the Crystal Sage. We may as well slap 4-C on the Deacons of the Deep.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
It may as well be early game. In terms of progression assuming a neutral mindset, the Abyss Watchers are equivalent to the Crystal Sage. We may as well slap 4-C on the Deacons of the Deep.
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No they aren't, the Crystal Sage is in the area before the Abyss Watchers, they and by extension the Deacons of the Deep since they're like 5 minutes away from the Crystal Sage, would be before the Abyss Watchers. Even then, I'm willing to drop 4-C Early Ashen One if we can get 4-C Mid-Game Ashen One since he literally fights 3 Lords of Cinder back to back with only Sullyvan and Wolnir between them.
 
In terms of progression the two are at the same exact point in the game, Farron. Deacons of the Deep are also absolutely not five minutes from Crystal Sage. I do not agree with 4-C mid, no.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
In terms of progression the two are at the same exact point in the game, Farron. Deacons of the Deep are also absolutely not five minutes from Crystal Sage. I do not agree with 4-C mid, no.
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Bro, he literally fights 2 4-C Characters within the same area of the game, he's gotta be 4-C by then. You're literally Stone walling for no reason other than being able to sequence break to fight the Nameless King first which you wouldn't even know about unless you had played the game already. The intended progression is doing him after the first 3 Lords of Cinder because you literally get a cutscene of you being teleported back to Lothric so you can go kill Prince Lothric and thus have access to Lothric Castle's Depths where the emote needed to fight the Nameless King is found.
 
I'm literally disagreeing, yes. You can literally fight those two bosses just before the last Lord of Cinder, too. You are arguing something purely based on one potential progression route which, while not invalid, doesn't make it the objectively best interpretation.

You can fight Dancer at any time, proceed to Oceiros, then get the emote, and then go to Nameless King. Not only is this excessively possible, the scaling isn't as nonsensical. We are not forced to assume everyone in the game past a certain point is fully 4-C scaling to literal Lord Souls from the first Age of Fire.

I disagree with your proposal. Call it stonewalling if you must but I have a damn reason to do disagree, and handwaving it away doesn't make me more inclined to agree.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
Not only is this excessively possible, the scaling isn't as nonsensical. We are not forced to assume everyone in the game past a certain point is fully 4-C scaling to literal Lord Souls from the first Age of Fire.
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Every Boss in the game is called an Heir of Fire which implies they all have the potential to link the First Flame, plus the Ashen One made it to the Soul of Cinder before but just couldn't win at the time since Unkindled are just Undead who failed to Link the First Flame and we know the Soul of Cinder existed at the time because we literally see him dragging away an Undead who failed meaning they would've had to get past him to do it. So the Scaling is far less fucky then you're making it out to be.
 
The past endeavor of the Ashen One has little to do with the discussion at hand, and I'm not certain why you're bringing it up. Being an "Heir of Fire" doesn't mean they are all equivalent to the actual Lords of Cinder, it means they have the potential to become one. Again, unless you're arguing base game Ashen One is 4-C, then it is irrelevant what the bosses are called.
 
Mr._Bambu said:
The past endeavor of the Ashen One has little to do with the discussion at hand, and I'm not certain why you're bringing it up.
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It has everything to do with this, he literally made it to the Soul of Cinder. He had to have been LoC Tier just starting out.
Mr._Bambu said:
Being an "Heir of Fire" doesn't mean they are all equivalent to the actual Lords of Cinder, it means they have the potential to become one.
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I just want to point out the fact that the literal tutorial boss is a guy who trained his entire life to be a Lord of Cinder and only didn't become one because he was too late.
Mr._Bambu said:
Again, unless you're arguing base game Ashen One is 4-C, then it is irrelevant what the bosses are called.
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That's exactly what I'm arguing.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
I just want to say that we currently don't scale Dark Souls linearly since it doesn't make sense for some characters to be vastly stronger than others. For example, Oceiros, Dancer, and Dragonslayer Armor would be 4-C.

But I'm currently working on a revision for Dark Souls since someone made it aware to me that the Archdragons wouldn't have survived the war before lightning if they were lower in AP than Gwyn. So expect major scaling changes.
Click to expand...
I forgot to ask btw, when do you think that CRT will be made? It sounds interesting to me.
 
Except he is weakened from that time by losing his souls, which are directly linked to AP.

Furthermore, we know barely anything about his prior journey to the SoC, only that it would have been different, as he wasn't Unkindled at the time. We also know he was soundly defeated by the Soul of Cinder, who was, presumably, substantially weaker at the time, since the SoC is a culmination of souls built up by each Lord of Cinder. So still this doesn't make sense.

He didn't even begin his journey. Iudex Gundyr was foiled from the moment his journey started. He has quite literally zero feats of being 4-C unless you say "w-well he might have killed Soul of Cinder!" He didn't actually do shit. He made it to begin his journey and found he was too late.

Then you're worse off than I'd thought. Most of your evidence relies on egregious exaggerations of power and one specific interpretation of evidence over all others- an interpretation which is, provably, contradictory. This entire CRT is absurd.

I've pointed out to Ovens that most of the fighting was mostly done by soldiers, explicitly, and not Gwyn. Soldiers who died by the hundreds to bring down even a single dragon, even with the assistance of Gwyn's most powerful knights. I would also call attention to the fact that it was the Dragon's scales that prevented their deaths, meaning it had less to do with durability and more to do with invulnerability. We are all getting rather silly in the FromSoftware fandom, aren't we?
 
OK, at this point we're clearly not gonna be able to convince each other of our points of view because I don't agree with a Sequence Break you wouldn't know about unless you beat the game already being our main scaling method while the intended method of just hunting down the Lords, finding Oceiros and then the emote then fighting the Nameless King is being thrown out due to said Sequence Break. I say we just ask other Staff to give their votes on which side they agree with and see where the cards lie.
 
You can't really sequence break in a non-linear game, or at least, what I'm describing is not that. I am describing alternative sequences that are very much still present within the game. I'm literally objectively right on this particular facet of this argument, this isn't even one of the ones where it's like "oh well it's down to the interpretation of the individual"- no, here, I am simply correct.
 
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