Majin Buu and Gotenks' Vice Shout Scaling

[Therefir]

Why?, in dragon ball it make sense that some abilities can be resisted with power.

 

[AKM sama]

@Ant Can I ask on which specific point do you agree with Dark?

- Piccolo's statement directly confirms that this ability is related to a certain threshold power, making it scaleable to anyone who surpasses that power level.

- We have an example directly proving said statement to be true, in the very same chapter.

- We have another far stronger character, who fulfills the requirements stated by Piccolo, do it on a much bigger scale , twice .

- We have other stronger characters, who again fulfill those requirements, demonstrating somewhat of a similar kinda ability .

There are enough evident statements and feats which solidify Amexim's stance. And no counter evidence to discredit it.

 

[Dark649]

The translation in the db manga link is bad since it is the same one that says the the room of spirit and time is universal sized, which is inaccurate.

 

[Therefir]

That not make the whole manga translation bad, I can argue that was a little error, anyway if you say that translation is incorrect please show me the good one.

 

[AguilaR101]

Tier 2 characters are assumed to break space-time by default, they don't need to have this added to their abilities as it'd be redundant and create confusions as one would assume the character has control over time and space rather than the simple ability to destroy it.

Minor showings of characters breaking through spacetime can be considered as abilities, however I will argue only the characters who have demonstrated some form of it should get "minor space-time manipulation (can make small holes in space-time)"

that would be Buu, Gotenks Goku(for breaking through hit's pocket dimension), Vegeta (for destroying the RosaT twice) and no one else.

Edit: Probably the saiyan girls as well.

 

[AKM sama]

The translation in the db manga link is bad since it is the same one that says the the room of spirit and time is universal sized, which is inaccurate.

No, it is correct.

 

[Antvasima]

I just meant that we cannot assume that all stronger characters automatically have all of the same abilities as lower ranked ones.

If there are specific powers that qualify, I will relent though.

 

[Antvasima]

Never mind. I do not have an opinion either way about if Gotenks' shout scales.

I am very tired and distracted due to events outside of this wiki, so my apologies if I messed up.

 

[AKM sama]

Hey, you don't need to apologise for that lol.

However about your point, I completely agree. And as Ryukama said, this is not about giving Beerus the abilities of Hit's toki-tobashi, Boss Rabbit's carrot touch or Devilman's devilmite beam.

This certain ability is directly related to having a certain power level(refer to my scans above), which makes it scaleable. Just as scaleable, as saying that a stronger character can punch harder than ssj3 Gotenks.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that makes sense.

 

[AKM sama]

Tier 2 characters are assumed to break space-time by default, they don't need to have this added to their abilities as it'd be redundant and create confusions as one would assume the character has control over time and space rather than the simple ability to destroy it.

Okay, but what do y'all think about this? Because in that vs thread, Paulo was saying that if this isn't written on Beerus' page, means he can't do it.

So I would like to know the consensus on this as well.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Beerus could also do the Kamehameha if he wanted to learn it, but it's not on his page. This isn't different.

 

[AKM sama]

Well, I was asking if "limited space time manipulation" can be listed on the pages of tier 2 characters or is it already understood that they can do it as Aguila said?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Neither. Being able to do it doesn't mean it's part of their arsenal, and therefore won't be listed. Beerus can also do the Solar Flare if he took the time to learn it, but you don't see people asking for light manipulation. Same for Roshi and flight.

 

[The_Everlasting]

"time to learn it"

This is literally just caused by the characters screaming loud enough and is specifically done through raw power.

 

[AKM sama]

What?

Kamehameha, solar flare, etc are techniques. That has nothing to do with this case. That's false equivalence.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Legitimately the fact that it had a name (Vice Shout) means it's a technique.

 

[AKM sama]

Legitimately the fact that it had a name (Vice Shout) means it's a technique.

We named it. Not the series. Unless you want to say that a stronger character like Cus can't create ki blasts like Gotenks because she never did, that's just nitpicking. Because instead of a simple ki blast, this is a simple scream and surge of power.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Cal ya better be joking.

Are punch and kick a technique?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

No, it was named in the Budokai Tenkaichi series. And generic ki blasts don't have names, so that doesn't hold up.

How many times would literally anybody have Vice Shout'd if we assume anyone upwards of Super Buu could do it?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

That's not an argument.

Guldo is stronger than people with Ki blasts and he can't make any. At all. Evidence?

He was gonna try and kill Gohan and Krillin....with a tree trunk.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Cal ya better be joking.

Are punch and kick a technique?

Depending on how, yes. I'm not gonna say Goku can say, the Dynamite Kick just as much as I'm not gonna say Palkia can use Mega Punch.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

>Goku cant do the dynamite kick.

Litterally a kick though.

 

[AKM sama]

Again, screaming with sheer power isn't a technique. It would be best if you could give the scans from the manga where it was called a technique.

 

[AguilaR101]

Are we pretending games are canon now?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

>Goku cant do the dynamite kick.

Litterally a kick though.

I'm gonna use the same analogy again.

Just like Mega Punch is just a punch. But I'm not gonna put it for every Pokémon with hands, even if they're god.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Are we pretending games are canon now?

Kudos on that Ad Hominem. Never said, nor implied that. And if it weren't a technique, anyone from Buu Saga Vegito to SSJ2 Kefla would've opened portals by now.

 

[AKM sama]

Except, Gotenks and Buu never opened portals after that, so I don't know what's your argument here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because they had no need to. Simple as that.

 

[Dark649]

Agree with howard.

 

[AKM sama]

And that simple thing applies to your argument too.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

My argument that it's a technique doesn't rely on the fact that no one else needed to open portals, because my argument is about only them two having access to it at the moment. If it wasn't just a technique, then everyone else stronger than S-Buu would've opened them by accident.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Agreeing with Cal wholeheartedly. They literally never had to open portals ever again since they never even go back into the HTC ever again.

 

[AKM sama]

Why would they be opening portals by accident if they were never trying to open a portal.

Do rocks always fly whenever Goku powers up? No.

> Manga says it is caused by raw power.

> Cal says it is a technique.

I am still waiting for the scan though.

 

[SomebodyData]

It could just be plot, ie Rampaging Sayaka ripped open a hole in space-time through sheer power, but she didn't tear it from actually attacking.

 

[AguilaR101]

It could be not.

I disagree with scaling the specific technique "vice shout" to anyone.

However other characters have displayed to ability to affect space time on a small scale which warrants minor space-time manip.

• Goku did it by breaking Hit's pocket dimension

• Vegeta did it by destroying the RoSAT which is a planet-sized dimension

• The saiyan girls did it as well by destroying Cocotte's forcefield which were stated to be a different dimension.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

See, this I can agree with.

 

[AKM sama]

So can I see the scan where the manga calls it a technique?

Because I already provided the scan where it called it an effect of raw power.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

I disagree with scaling the Vice Shout to anyone except maybe Piccolo. Piccolo has attempted to do this in the past with Gotenks but was simply not powerful enough. I do believe he's more than powerful enough now. But even then, it would be have to be noted that Piccolo has never successfully done so in the series proper and would have to be listed as possibly.

As for everyone else, I'd say the problem comes to context. How did Vice Shout come about? By Buu screaming to high Heaven and releasing large amounts of power due to sheer anger and fustration at being trapped. Until he did that, there was no way out of the RoST known. Once Buu did that and escaped, Piccolo and Gotenks knew to replicate the action.

Where am I going with this? Just because the Vice Shout may be easy to replicate, doesn't mean that all the characters know to do that or have any reason to. It's a specific application that was discovered by accident, not a well known phenomena.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

However other characters have displayed to ability to affect space time on a small scale which warrants minor space-time manip.

• Goku did it by breaking Hit's pocket dimension

• Vegeta did it by destroying the RoSAT which is a planet-sized dimension

• The saiyan girls did it as well by destroying Cocotte's forcefield which were stated to be a different dimension.

Couldnt this be because of the sheer power difference tho? Especially Hit and the HTC?