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Madoka vs Goetia

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Red-Eyed Specter said:
Forgive me, I'm quite unfamiliar with Madoka so could you explain how she stomps? Not that I'm skeptical, I'm just genuinely curious.
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The facts the Nasuverse 2-A lacks of range to even affects Madoka is enough for her to stomps them.
 
Not so sure about that.

Nasuverse 2-As don't so much lack in range as they have weird designations on who is in range and who isn't.

IIRC, Madoka still counts as a Magical Girl even after deification (she has a Witch Form, right?). Magical Girls must be humans, and so a connection can be established that Madoka is still human. Throw in her connection with Homura who remains on Earth and the wish that deified her (Proof of Desire, Proof of Pity, Proof of Humanity), that's enough to put her under a Beast's influence. (And the Grands too...I think.)

Yes, I'm saying what made her a goddess and a whole host of other factors counts if you're talking Nasuverse.

But we're talking Goetia, so...actually not sure on this one. He should be able to get her, but he needs his whole supporting network of Demon Pillars for that.

Big Disadvantage. Not Stomp.
 
Zenjutsu said:
Not so sure about that.
Nasuverse 2-As don't so much lack in range as they have weird designations on who is in range and who isn't.

IIRC, Madoka still counts as a Magical Girl even after deification (she has a Witch Form, right?). Magical Girls must be humans, and so a connection can be established that Madoka is still human. Throw in her connection with Homura who remains on Earth and the wish that deified her (Proof of Desire, Proof of Pity, Proof of Humanity), that's enough to put her under a Beast's influence. (And the Grands too...I think.)

Yes, I'm saying what made her a goddess and a whole host of other factors counts if you're talking Nasuverse.

But we're talking Goetia, so...actually not sure on this one. He should be able to get her, but he needs his whole supporting network of Demon Pillars for that.

Big Disadvantage. Not Stomp.
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Unless you give me a feat of Nasuverse characters affecting 2 2-A multiverses Madoka still stomps, and she surely does here, as Goetia still has 5-B range at best even in his 2-A key

>IIRC, Madoka still counts as a Magical Girl even after deification (she has a Witch Form, right?). Magical Girls must be humans, and so a connection can be established that Madoka is still human.

An omnipresent concept that lacks the concept of age and a soul surely still is an human

Kriemhild was created only after Madoka became a goddess, and Madoka fights it
 
Why would a literal concept encompassed two Multiverse be counted as human? That is just plain dumb. Heck, even Magical Girl cannot be count as human, they just have so too many different characteristics to be count as human despite looking like one.

His range is shit for someone on his tier so he will never get her.
 
That's easy, because all Magical Girls ARE humans. Go ahead, find one who isn't, or didn't start as one (or was not one at some point). You wanna get technical? Magical GIRLS. You telling me girls aren't humans now? (Lol)

And wishes and desires are most definitely a human-only trait. Madoka was deified by a wish, and Homura's becoming a devil was also powered by something like it.
 
Too bad that Madoka ISN'T a regular Magical Girl, I mean, she has all their abilities, also I still want to know how a type 1 abstract still is an human
 
Last time I check, human don't wear their soul as a ring. So no, Magical Girl is not a human.

Wrong. Madoka was deified mostly because of Homura messing with her Karmic Destiny by time traveling over and over again. That is the reason why Madoka has great potential as Magical girl. The wish is merely what triggered those Karmic Destiny to be unleashed.
 
Her COUNTING as a Human is what matters.

Her Human origins. Her becoming a Magical Girl to protect fellow humans. Her distinctly human wish that deified her. Her legend and legacy has everything to do with her being 'human' even while she acquires godlike powers. Homura doesn't remember her as a 'goddess', but a 'friend' (maybe even lover? I dunno), a concept that is, again, Human.

She will count as one if we're considering Goetia's (and other Nasuverse 2-As') having her within their ability to influence.

Except for when he showed up in London, Goetia was in his temple the rest of Part 1. He could track every move in every Singularity, and prepared his attack on the cusp of Ritsuka defeating the Seventh Singularity so we would be caught off guard.

[My memories of Part 1 is a bit rusty because I'm on JP. Correct me if I got something wrong.]
 
Randomlamdom said:
In nasuverse do lichs and things like that still count as human if they used to be?
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I think so. I mean, Servants are technically dead people who left their mark on history or myth.

If a Lich became one to protect a lover or friend, say, he would fall under the influence of the Beasts and Grands, and some of the more powerful Servants. Not everyone can exploit it, but it CAN be exploited, is my point.

The whole reason Moriarty couldn't win even after absorbing Sherlock Holmes in Shinjuku and becoming conceptually unbeatable, was because he couldn't 100% shake off his Villainous Origin, and Ritsuka exploited that to depower him.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Ok? And what helps this about Goetia influencing her? With that 5-B range?
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SBA has them 4 km away from each other. Totally in range of each other.

If she moves out of range, he goes to his temple and is now out of her reach. The only reason we could access the temple is because he was trying to encroach or swallow Chaldea with the temple's Dimension. In doing so he opened his doors to us.

Otherwise, the Temple (and dimension) cannot be entered without his permission. And he has his support network inside, and his attacks can reach every last corner of that Dimension.
 
>Her human origin

You mean the same origin that got erased after her ascension?

A human being called "Madoka Kaname" is no longer exist in the past, present, and future throughout the Multiverse. She is now become an entirely new entity called the "Law of Cycle". How the hell do you have origin when you never even existed in every point of time?

Also, Homura remembering her is because of the "True Miracle" that makes her transcended the Law of the Multiverse. She doesn't affects by the Multiverse reset Madoka did through her own power.
 
>SBA has them 4 km away from each other. Totally in range of each other.

SBA means shit when your opponent is Twice bigger than a Multiverse.

>If she moves out of range, he goes to his temple and is now out of her reach.

At least Multiversal+ range laughs at this statement.

>Otherwise, the Temple (and dimension) cannot be entered without his permission.

Madoka doesn't even need to enter the temple. She nukes it out of Existence from a Multiverse away.
 
@Zero

What CAUSED the ascension? I'll remind you again--her wish.

"I want to erase all witches before they are even born. I will erase every single witch in every universe, past and future with my own hands...I don't care what you call it. All those magical girls who held onto their hopes and fought against witches I don't want to see them cry. I want them to stay smiling until the end."

She cannot be 'not human' under Nasuverse rules if even the single Wish that made her into whatever she is now comes from her inherent Humanity.

She is only what she is now because she was--and is*--human. If she wasn't human, she would never be the Law of Cycle.

Same for Homura's memory. She would not be what she is now if she wasn't human.

That's what will make it count.

  • By which I mean 'count as one'.
 
>Madoka doesn't even need to enter the temple. She nukes it out of Existence from a Multiverse away.

She can't do it. The Temple itself is way beyond whatever she can do. Goetia only uses it as a base of operation and can do so as Beast I. It's not really his.

Sorry.
 
You're just saying that a 3-D construct can't be destroyed from an omnipresent type 1 abstract that is big as 2 infinite multiverses (something already over anything in Nasuverse talking about 2-As)
 
StrymULTRA said:
You're literally saying that with someone with Type 9 Large Size
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Honestly, it doesn't change the fact that Goetia is at a very real disadvantage here.

For a Beast matchup, I think Kama or Kiara would be a much better and more relevent opponent.

I'm just trying to establish that Godoka isn't beyond the 2-As of Nasuverse.
 
Ok, then if you want to make a fair Nasuverse vs PMMM matchup just bring someone with 2-A range, and Goetia surely isn't the case here
 
What part of her origin got erased you don't understand?

The previous Multiverse, the one where Madoka made her wish, the one you keeps insisting as her origin, is no longer exists. Gone. Disappear.

>She cannot be 'not human' under Nasuverse rules if even the single Wish that made her into whatever she is now comes from her inherent Humanity.

Yes she can. That is one of the reason she got Acausality. Cause her origin, which is no longer exist, is irrelevant to her.

>She can't do it. The Temple itself is way beyond whatever she can do. Goetia only uses it as a base of operation and can do so as Beast I. It's not really his.

Yes she can. The temple is not even the smallest atom compared to Madoka. Saying that she can't nuke it just because it wasn't hers is like saying a Godzilla cannot stomps my house just because it wasn't his.

The temple isn't way beyond her, it is her that way beyond the temple. You got it backward.
 
>What part of her origin got erased you don't understand?

I understand what you're trying to say. I'm just not agreeing with it.

>The previous Multiverse, the one where Madoka made her wish, the one you keeps insisting as her origin, is no longer exists. Gone. Disappear.

If it never was, Madoka would never be the Law of Cycle. Therefore it must have existed for her to make her wish. It serves as a very valid Origin.

>Yes she can. That is one of the reason she got Acausality.

No she can't.

>Yes she can. The temple is not even the smallest atom compared to Madoka. Saying that she can't nuke it just because it wasn't hers is like saying a Godzilla cannot stomps my house just because it wasn't his.

She can't. Compared to the Temple--and its true owner from the Bible--Madoka is nothing. It was never the other way round.

---

See? We're getting into murky and dangerous territory here. Nasuverse limited the presence of certain entities because of IRL concerns, but they are very much a thing in Nasuverse.

And I can feel the both of us getting worked up. Maybe end this on relatively peaceful terms?
 
It's a unique situation that only arises because of the intricacies of the Nasuverse and Verse Equalization.

She wouldn't count as a human otherwise. That's why I said 'I understand'.

If I didn't it would warrant a CRT, but not in this case.
 
>I understand what you're trying to say. I'm just not agreeing with it.

Well that is your problem.

>If it never was, Madoka would never be the Law of Cycle. Therefore it must have existed for her to make her wish. It serves as a very valid Origin.

Urgh...smh. Dude, her origin does not matter to her because of her Acausality. It got erased yes, but that is totally irrelevant to her. She doesn't need one.

>No she can't.

Brilliant reply

>She can't. Compared to the Temple--and its true owner from the Bible--Madoka is nothing. It was never the other way round.

Urgh, really dude? You're bring RL religion into this?
 
>Urgh, really dude? You're bring RL religion into this?

A whole wall of text, and I think it's obvious this is the only point worth any more discussion.

Well, it cannot be helped. Catholicism, Christianity and Islam are still religions in the Nasuverse. Their relevent entities are still a thing, even if they're kept deliberately out of the spotlight for obvious reasons.

It's not so much I'm bringing RL religion into this than it is that RL religion exists in the Nasuverse.

Sorry if I made you uncomfortable.
 
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