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Madoka Kaname vs Cirno

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>She can dodge, but this is stamina consuming.

As in Cirno? She is low tier amongst Touhou characters but she can dodge hell of a lot of bullets without breaking a sweat, even from Marisa and for a moment, Utsuho, and the main reason she left was not because "the bullets were overwhelming me" (And even then she was able to get a couple hits into her while she was being scorched alive) but because she was literally melting, but she still got away to where she was able to talk coherently with Marisa, then fight Alice's Goliath Doll right after

>Also if she dies that's hardly "shrugging it off".

It does if you explode on death and immediately shrug it off as you respawn without any sign of tiring and immediately go right back to fighting the opponent you were just fighting before.
 
And every punch of yours is half of a punch (actually a bit less because I don't think that we count damage accumulation here). And iirc Madoka's feat is performed while she is trying not to destroy the city. @Saik

Is it in character for Cirno to abuse of her immortality killing herself on purpose? @Flo

Nobody said that she can't dodge. Just that Madoka has a better range. @COB
 
>Is it in character for Cirno to abuse of her immortality killing herself on purpose? @Flo

Not to my knowledge, but her dodging ability should let her keep herself from ever having to do that.
 
Finally a stamina feat to confront with Madoka's. This does sound enough to eventually beat her. Switching my vote to Cirno.

But no, resurrecting isn't stamina. Hell, resurrection not being stamina is the main reason why victory via KO is a thing.
 
Hm...the way I see it, basically, if Cirno on close-to-mid-range, she would overwhelme her with bullet, if Madoka's on long-range, I barely remember if she's able to output something with the capability of a nuke to wipe the map, and her homing is effectively useless with Cirno's freeze and dodging skill. On the other hand though, Cirno's bullet density drop greatly, and she's not a good shooter either in long range.But... they're speed-equalize, so they effectively can't gain distance from each other if the other pursuit, this mean that they would always be in mid-range, so...

Changing vote again, Cirno probably win.
 
So sorry to bring this up, but Madoka has just gained some new abilities that may help her in thus match:

Barrier and Armor bypassing via basic Magic Arrow, Resurrection, minor Light Manipulation, Death Manipulation with Purification and White Light of Salavation, minor Body Control with Pannier Rocket, minor Size Manipulation with Twinkle Staff, gets stronger when very damaged. Resistance to the following: Mind Manipulation, Life Absorption and Magic.
 
I'll make this quick.

>Barrier and Armor bypassing via basic Magic Arrow

Cirno has no armor nor notable barrier creation

>Resurrection

On herself or others?

>Light Manipulation, Body Control, Size Manipulation

All these 3 matter little.

>Gets stronger when very damaged

Very damaged, to compensate and easier to defeat. Her attacks still one shot Cirno, but she's not gonna lose just from a few PICHUUNs.

>Resistance to Mind Manipulation, Life Absorption

Both of these Cirno doesn't have.

>Resistance to Magic

This is the only thing that matters unless Madoka can resurrect herself.
 
Madoka's New Death Manip works a lot like the oneshot we see in Smiting. Considering she has higher Ap, that matters too - if it kicks in, Cirno is obliterated (though she probs resurrects later). Not voting anyways.
 
Only resurrection and maybe death manip changes things up, how fast is it? Plus in character Madoka is a cinnamon bun. Killing Cirno isn't stopping her for long.
 
In character but willing to kill as per SBA. Meaning that she fights Cirno as she would fight a witch. And victory via KO needs only one hour.
 
I know normal fairies, like the three in nature diety and the like can do so in less than a few hours. Cirno im not sure, unless her getting hit in FW and respawning is her resurrection going in to play im not sure. It probably says so in the manual or game itself, unfortunately im not on that one yet, gotta beat UFO first.
 
Yup. She's frozen frogs (But that's laughable next to freezing blokes in Hisoutensoku)

If you go by GFW, she respawns pretty much instantly from taking a hit (and dying, but I'm not sure if that comes from game mechanics or her immortality)
 
I remember it but don't fully support it. She's literally fuelled by her own determination and only ends up defeated if you continue to the game over screen.
 
Alrighty with Madoka's new ablities, we need more confirmation whether or not Cirno still takes this or this won't be added. So if everyone (or least the majority) can do a re-vote/restate please and would be very much appreciated.
 
I don't there's much that changes things, I'm still the sasme unless I missed something so keep me the same untill further notice.
 
I still rest my case, I do not see how much the new abilities will affect the fight.
 
@Andy TL;DR

Madoka gained new abilites and we need to conclude whethere or not it turn the tables:

Barrier and Armor bypassing via basic Magic Arrow, Resurrection, minor Light Manipulation, Death Manipulation with Purification and White Light of Salavation, minor Body Control with Pannier Rocket, minor Size Manipulation with Twinkle Staff, gets stronger when very damaged. Resistance to the following: Mind Manipulation, Life Absorption and Magic.
 
I stand by the fact Cirno can just freeze her solid as she's done so to people stronger than here before, it should work on Madoka. Plus projectile freeze spam.
 
Now that White Light of Salvation is added as possibly Smiting plus the fact that Death manipulation may be triggered by your everyday atttack and Madoka's AP is higher by default I'm not so sure if Madoka goes down or if Cirno gets rekt enough times to give up.

I'm pretty sure stuff like White Light of Salvation can oneshot if it connects, so that makes it harder for Cirno to stay in the game.

Not sure if enough to change the end results so no vote from me for any side.
 
...Yeah, so not changing much then. Death Manip is basically useless on Cirno, and it only work on Goddess version anyway.

Still held my votes
 
You're misunderstanding. Where is it stated that Cirno is immune to death manip?

It's literally firing an arrow that deals the damage and also has a chance to insta-kill you. And any normal attack from Madoka has a chance to trigger said effect.
 
Well considering Cirno can flash freeze dozens of projectiles at once and can kinda spam it at thst, that shouldn't be a big deal. He's probably talking about Cirno coming back from the dead
 
Cirno is immune to death manip?

More like she'll just respawn from death manipulation being used on her.

Madoka has higher AP than Cirno, not seeing Cirno flashfreezing anything Madoka throws at her, really.

She froze casual projectile spam from Marisa. I don't really see her having difficulty with freezing Madoka's spread, considering her 6-C feat is also casual, really. This kind of projectile spam.
 
Still, she does freeze that. Heck, she still managed to form ice near a nuclear reactor for peace sake.

Edit: Also, isn't Death manip only a Goddess thing?
 
@Flourine I honestly see that as Game mechanics, with Cirno casually freezing stuff from people who are canonically superior to her. It's kind of the same situation as the CT cast actually managing to fight DD while they get horribly stomped in a serious match outside of Game Mechanics.

Also I can see her freezing some, but all of them? Nope.

Not even in the game she does that, otherwise no one would need to dodge, they would simply spam said flash freezing. That being said, I see Cirno actually dodging as way more of a better option than "She nopes all by flash freezing" which really, she would better be using when she totally can't dodge.
 
Fate She still held her own against Marisa and by her own words couldn't be completely casual around Cirno.

Is it really game mechanics when said fight canonically happened and one of Cirno's only saving graces is flash freezing and it's from the game they both happen in? I mean really, I can see how it's a NLF to assume it can freeze anything or Cirno 1v1ing someone like Yukari but in my opinion her freezing stuff can effect projectiles from characters stronger than her and Madoka is not so much stronger that I'm gonna say it's ineffective.

Plus there's that new game, there could be stuff in there too I'm not aware of.
 
TheJ-ManRequiem said:
Is it really game mechanics when said fight canonically happened and one of Cirno's only saving graces is flash freezing and it's from the game they both happen in?
Click to expand...
So can I upgrade all the CT cast to Low 2-C right about now?

And you got ninja'd by this (and I don't know if anyone noticed, but I didn't vote, nor did I try to convince anyone of changing their vote. I'm just pointing out stuff, so you guys are debating a non existent voter ovo):

>>> Also I can see her freezing some, but all of them? Nope.

Not even in the game she does that, otherwise no one would need to dodge, they would simply spam said flash freezing. That being said, I see Cirno actually dodging as way more of a better option than "She nopes all by flash freezing" which really, she would better be using when she totally can't dodge.
 
@Flourine I honestly see that as Game mechanics, with Cirno casually freezing stuff from people who are canonically superior to her. Then we should also treat Cirno managing to hold back Utsuho for a moment as "Game Mechanics".

It's kind of the same situation as the CT cast actually managing to fight DD while they get horribly stomped in a serious match outside of Game Mechanics.

Wait, Spellcard Rules are Game Mechanics? I never knew that.

Also I can see her freezing some, but all of them? Nope.

Like you said, she can combine her flash-freezing and her Touhou level dodging ability.
 
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