Madoka Kaname vs Cirno

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

And can't Cirno just outlast Madoka via stamina so it's not like she can play the range game forever.

 

[Fllflourine]

I mean, IIRC the taking only a few hours to respawn comes from the three fairies of light. Though the Touhou Wiki says they (all fairies) can instantly respawn if they die... so... *shrugs*

I'm only voting inconclusive if the starting distance is much longer than "A few dozen meters", though. Because if it's long enough Madoka can kite.

 

[SomebodyData]

@J-Man Madoka is leagues above someone who went for a week without cleansing her soul gem while maniacally abusing it against witches.

Yeah, outlasting via stamina that's not happening anytime soon.

@Filf I see

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Anytime soon maybe, but it WILL happen, correct?

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Isn't the three fairies statement saying they'll be back by morning if they died, while in the dead of night to early morning?

 

[Kaltias]

@J-Man

Cirno has pretty good stamina, but not better than Madoka's. When I said that it was enough to win above, I meant that it was enough to not be outlasted. Outlasting Madoka? That ain't happening

 

[SomebodyData]

Well considering Madoka doesn't really have to abuse her soul gem, I would give them a few weeks. I mean, in Kazumi (spoilers) a few magical girls didn't have to worry about an extreme period of time (at least a month) due to them teaming up thus not having to abuse their soul gems..

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Why not? From what I can tell, when Cirno respawns it's like a new life. Probably doesnt need to worry about exhaustion if she deliberately offs herself. Of course thatd only work if her respawns is quick. Even if this goes back and forth for months.

 

[SomebodyData]

Is she known for killing herself to abuse of that fact? Seems kinda out of character, just from a quick overview...

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Nope but in a battle that could potentially last months? No but implying it does happen, even from ironically, exhaustion, that wouldn't be a problem any longer.

 

[Fllflourine]

Isn't the three fairies statement saying they'll be back by morning if they died, while in the dead of night to early morning?

Yea, even Touhou Wiki says that (in the same article that says that they instantly respawn), though I don't have the scan on me right now, so not sure at what time they said that.

 

[Kaltias]

Oh right, i'm going with inconclusive atm @Scarlet

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

So than it shouldnt be a problem then, if Cirno was smarter I'd say she could fake a permadeath and exploit that for a sneak attack but eh, if I argued that id be in the wrong.

 

[SomebodyData]

"or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions."

While this isn't quite incapacitation, this implies that the fact that they can't really beat each other in a day should count as a draw.

Of course, this resurrection time issue is starting to sound more problematic for the battle than I originally thought.

If instant > Range Battle = Inconclusive

If not instant = Madoka's win

This is starting to sound more like something that Madoka can win.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I mean that's implying Cirno can't weave her way to Madoka considering Cirno is an expert at that. Freezing+expert dodgeing and her own projectiles should kinda null that argument and I'm gonna go off on a limb and say Cirno beats base Madoka out in danmaku.

 

[Fllflourine]

Aha. Here's the scan of Star stating that they'd only be "dead" until sunrise. Not sure at what time they stated this, though.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Wasn't sunrise after a brief talk with Marisa?

 

[Kaltias]

While Madoka can't do what Mami does and use time-based explosive projectiles, she still has to deal with the issue of the arrows exploding on contact. And i'd argue that they would probably explode if frozen solid.

 

[SomebodyData]

I have doubts in beating at danmaku, Madoka's attack quite literally a city wide danmaku that explodes. Then there's still the fact that since speed is equalized Madoka would keep on flying away.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

And can't Cirno freeze explosions, even if the AOE is huge, they clearly don't start huge and speed equal equalizes everything so she could likely outpace the explosions anyway. And what's your argument for them exploding if frozen?

 

[Fllflourine]

Wasn't sunrise after a brief talk with Marisa?

Yea

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Yes speed equal, which means the explosions themselves are equalized too, which means if they explode and Cirno keeps going they wont hit her

 

[Kaltias]

The fact that they pretty much explode as soon as they stop flying. Also good luck outpacing multiple explosions from different angles at once

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Ok so there's confirmation of respawn being less than an hour from characters vastly inferior to Cirno.

 

[Fllflourine]

The fact that they pretty much explode as soon as they stop flying. Also good luck outpacing multiple explosions from different angles at once

Danmaku that "explodes" like a bomb is a thing. The first two that come to mind are Mokou's Fujiyama Volcano and Utsuho's attacks.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

I mean sure, she's dealt with similar stuff before. And she's dealt with Utsuho before, sure she almost died but Utsuho is also far above Madoka.

 

[SomebodyData]

What if she dodges the initial arrow (which she would) which results in an explosion behind (which means she a-won't notice, b- would have expanded.)

 

[Fllflourine]

Sidenote, but the 3 fairies only being "dead until sunrise" is for freezing to death, not getting killed by danmaku. Not sure if that actually means they'll respawn instantly if they are killed by a direct attack from someone else, but... *shrug*

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

If she's trying to get to Madoka she'd keep flying anyway man and why wouldn't she notice? I'm sure if they're that huge she'd notice from the flash of light, air pressure, debris and know not to stop anyway.

 

[Kaltias]

@J-Man

Pretty sure that Utsuho was holding back or otherwise she would have obliterated Cirno via superior everything. That or it's an outlier cuz Cirno isn't 4-C

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Freezing to death is slow as is, regardless they respawn quickly, quick enough for this to matter.

 

[SomebodyData]

You mentioned explosions are equalized no? This would likely include all of what you mentioned too, wouldn't it? If that's the case, she'll notice alongside the explosion.

 

[Fllflourine]

Also, reading over PMiSS, it says this:

Also, an individual fairy is short-lived(*1), but they immediately resurrect in the same shape.


Even if they suffer large injuries so that their bodies are in pieces, they heal immediately.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Of course, but the point was she has dealt with characters that make use if similar things.

 

[Kaltias]

Death from freezing doesn't cause nearly as much damage as being blown up tho.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Shouldn't matter, there's a statement saying even if in pieces they can heal and Madoka isn't so much stronger she's vaporizing or something.

 

[FateAlbane]

Actually pretty sure stuff like White Light of Salvation obliterates the target.

 

[Fllflourine]

Which im pretty sure Cirno will resurrect from.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Including people on the same tier or people inherently weaker.

 

[FateAlbane]

True, just pointing out that the "Madoka isn't vaporizing" isn't an absolute.

It's a possibility depending on what Cirno gets hit with/if she gets hit.