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Madara Uchiha vs Yhwach

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"-BFR: Gremmy needed 3 or more clones to open a portal, it's faulty to assume Yhwach can do otherwise being as there is no proof."

Except Yhwach is planet, and Gremmy is possibly country with his clones. An argument can be made that he needed that many clones just to open the portal from that many directions, but AP isn't a problem.

"The Wind: Sure it will keep Madara at bay, but doesn't protect against Limbos or things he doesn't percieve as a threat. Even if Yhwach did know about Limbos, he can't protect against them with the wind as they exist in a separate Dimension. You gotta prove The Wind stops attacks from other dimensions."

Burden of proof lies on those who counter the original claim. Prove limbo can attack anyone who uses spatial manipulation. Especially since they interact with the physical dimension normally.

That said, Visionary wipes Madara out of existence with a thought. Yama's bankai wipes him out of existence with a swing. The wind decapitates him. Madara being Low 5-B while Yhwach is a solid 5-B means he can afford to take damage from Limbo.

TSBs are null since Quincies can absorb and manipulate reishi, which under verse equalization is the same as nature energy. IT never happens. The Deathdealing would effectively make Yhwach immune to Madara's abilities .
 
Let's be real you say?

Yhwach turns madara into a cookie. Yhwach BFRs with a thought (literally). So... its not like madara has a instant-win condition that can effortessly pull out of nowhere.
 
"-BFR: Gremmy needed 3 or more clones to open a portal, it's faulty to assume Yhwach can do otherwise being as there is no proof."

So Yhwach can do the same with the visionary, after all he already has a feat of creating clones in the past.

0137-019
0137-018
0540-017
 
Idk why people assume he can't do the same things and more, like they weren't his powers to begin with, lol.
 
Unite My Rice said:
Idk why people assume he can't do the same things and more, like they weren't his powers to begin with, lol.
Click to expand...
Once you said that I realized how op Yhwach is

But so far this is a case of who does it 1st Yhwach can essentially use all of the abilities that were from Sternritters caught in Auswhalen

So couldnt he just use the visionary, the wind, the deathdealing, and the miracle and stomp?
 
The Miracle wasn't a schrift he gave out, Gerard already had it.

But with the rest yeah. I think people are overestimating Madara's 3 core abilities, a lot.
 
@Unite My Rice

1.)Wasn't talking about AP for the portal creation. Self explanatory.

2.)No, the burden of proof is on those who make claims without proof. Limbos exist on a separate plane and attack from a separate plane. They never cross over onto the plane Madara is in. Now, can you prove that the wind protects against attacks from a separate Dimension apart from the one Yhwach is in? The answer is no, you can't because no such feat exist to prove any argument for it aside from NLF.

3.)A couple of things:

  • How is visionary wiping Madara out of existence when no such feat exist? Visionary only has feats of creation and Manipulation of what the user touches. Any other claim is baseless and NLF based on definition. It's like me saying Hags can create a Black Hole via COAT due being able to create form out of nothingness.
  • Preta path and energy sensing + Precog make it useless. TSB majes Yama's Bankai obsolete as well. Not seeing any real way Yama's bankai is a factor outside of assuming Madara will let himself get hit.
  • Yhwach has to close the distance first and get past Madara's counters, such as Limbos and genjutsu in order for the Wind to be a viable option.
  • And no, the guy who gets one shotted by vastly weaker characters such Ichigo when caught off guard is getting oneshotted by a Limbo. Limbo's light fang = GG. Yhwach gets bisected from a weaker character than Madara on several occasions.
4.)I give you the TSB argument due to verse equalization, though it's still good for blocking such things as Sankt Alter and Death Dealings require Yhwach to take in and analyze Madara's own energy firzt through damage. Unfortunately, madara doesn't attack like Yoruichi and her brother all the time. Genjutsu would still one shot off bat, no argument agaist this.
 
@Unite my Rice

Madara's abilities aren't being overestimated. Yhwach's are and being used as NLF's as per usual with bleach abilities.
 
I feel like Yhwach oneshots Madara. Can Madara survive hits from planet level ap? His durability is only moon level.
 
1. My original claim with the wind never involved limbo.

"Sure it will keep Madara at bay, but doesn't protect against Limbos or things he doesn't percieve as a threat."

You can't introduce a new claim without evidence and shift the burden of proof to me. That's not how this works.

"Limbos exist on a separate plane and attack from a separate plane. They never cross over onto the plane Madara is in. Now, can you prove that the wind protects against attacks from a separate Dimension apart from the one Yhwach is in?"

What you're saying is the equivalent of you telling me Obito can attack somebody while he's completely inside of the kamui dimension. Limbo interacts with the normal physical world to damage Madara's opponents, therefore, in addition to his clones being in an invisible world, they also exist in the normal world. They project real physical strikes, therefore they can be rendered ineffective.

2.

Pages 8-11

"Even from my memory, you've vanished"

"I have no idea who you are"

"The future you once had, I can't imagine it any longer"

>NLF

>Reality Warping

Pick one. If he can imagine it, it can happen. Gremmy would also have abilities he bestowed upon others, such as the vanishing point, which grants invisibility, intangibility, and the ability to make his opponent forget he existed. I'm not seeing any NLF here. Also the fact that it was his creation doesn't mean he didn't demonstrate the ability either.

3.

"Yhwach has to close the distance first and get past Madara's counters, such as Limbos and genjutsu in order for the Wind to be a viable option."

You do know the wind is also a passive ability? As I've shown above, Yhwach would be protected, regardless of if he could see his opponent or not. Then he draws an imaginary line across Madara's throat.

With abilities like the fear and the question, Madara would undoubtedly be affected. He can use the iron to give himself iron skin, making him nearly impervious to damage.

As for the argument with Yama's bankai, I'm not seeing how TSBs are an argument, considering that's something Madara hasn't even done to Sasuke's sword.

4. Madara is placed at Mach 3277, Yhwach at a far weaker state scales from Ichibei, who's Mach 3995 . So Yhwach gives him the Sasuke treatment , which ends in Madara being cleansed from existence.
 
This match became even more onesided the moment OP gave Yhwach the speed advantage, even if its slightly significant.
 
PaChi2 said:
This match became even more onesided the moment OP gave Yhwach the speed advantage, even if its slightly significant.
Click to expand...


Actually, I never investigate who was faster. I just didn't equalize speed because I thought Madara had the upper hand since Yhwach was downgraded. Anyway, mayority thinks Madara wins because Yhwach doesn't have the Almighty, so him been faster helps him against Madara's hax.
 
@Unite my rice

1.)Limbos don't exist in the same realm as Madara and his opponent and two, Senjumaru showed a wind user can be harmed by what they don't percieve as a threat which is why he ended up dying from his clothes. How exactly is this introducing new claims? Yhwach wouldn't know a limbo was there nor would the wind affect one. Your argument here makes no sense.

2.)Funny how you conveniently forget he was a byproduct of Gremmy's power. So, no, this isn't a legitimate argument. You can't use gremmy wiping him from existence as proof when he was a byproduct of the visionaries power to begin with. Would have been easier to do the same to kenpachi instead of jobbing. So...ill ask you more clearly, is there proof the visionary can affect anything besides what the user creates or is touching? Because, no feat exist otherwise, thus your argument is based in...Surprise, a NLF.

3.)A couple of things:

  • Again, You have to prove Yhwach can close the distance and get close enough to "draw an imaginary line against across Madara's throat", this hasn't changed. And you still haven't proven Yhwach gets past Limbos or especially genjutsu, which are guaranteed one shots.
  • Not seeing what Madara has to fear being as he doesn't fear even death, so...and tell me what the question does while you're at it, lol.
  • Assuming Yhwach uses the Iron before he is killed by a limbo, which is highly highly unlikely, he still gets one shotted by genjutsu.
  • Madara never went h2h agaist Sasuke. And he has a staff for a reason. He had no problem cutting off Minato's arm and swimging it at 7th gate Gai. Honestly, this is a baseless cop out argument from you. Come on, I expect better from you.
4.)With Sharingan precog, and chakra sensing, Naruto characters have reacted to attacks and characters vastly faster than themselves:

  • Sasuke v Kyuubi Enhaced Naruto VoTE1
  • Nearly Blind Itachi v Kirin
  • Madara v Kages (Raikage Top Speed)
  • Madara v BM Naruto
  • SM Naruto reacting to Juubi's Blitz before BM Naruto
  • Naruto moving faster than Juubito's TSB attack
  • BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke v Casual Juubito
  • Tobirama and Hashi v Mindless Juubito (Place several explosive tags on him in mid blitz)
The list goes on and on. So, Yhwach's speed shouldn't be a problem. Consider Naruto verse has shown characters reacting to attacks and people with speeds ranging from twice to 10+ times faster than their own speed.

Even if We factor in your argument, Madara beats Yhwach AT LEAST at a 6:10 ratio.
 
I count 4 for Madara(BarryAllen2.0, LucyyxNuxHana, i don't care i luv it, and ShrekAlmighty)

And 10 for Yhwach(PaChi2, Untie my rice, Hst Master, SilentBob34, Joseph619, Burning Full Fingers, Dat Dot, Bepo4151, ProffesorKukui4life, Pepper14832) I didn't count Piercer since it his vote had no reasoning behind it
 
@Barry Now you're just wanking Madara.

"Limbos don't exist in the same realm as Madara and his opponent and two, Senjumaru showed a wind user can be harmed by what they don't percieve as a threat which is why he ended up dying from his clothes. How exactly is this introducing new claims?"

1.) Please, tell me more about how something on a completely different realm of existence can physically interact with another one. Can Obito using Kamui, or in Kamui-land interact with people physically? Nope. You can't prove Madara can do otherwise from the manga, so you rely on argumentum ad nauseam as your counter-argument.

2.) Except that's not what happened at all. Senjumaru blitzed Nianzol while he was focusing on fighting multiple enemies, with the intent of restructuring his clothes, not attacking, which are two very distinct things. Among your other baseless assumptions, I'm done addressing this.

"Funny how you conveniently forget he was a byproduct of Gremmy's power."

1.) Funny how I very clearly addressed that in the last sentence of the paragraph you are referring to.

"Would have been easier to do the same to kenpachi instead of jobbing."

2.) You're right. It would've been easier. It also would've been easier to turn his bones into cookies like he's done before. It would also be bad writing to have a guy with the second most hax ability in the show to just one-shot everybody he fights. It's common sense. Do you believe Yhwach couldn't have killed Ichigo 1000 times over, or avoid the PIS arrow that negated his abilities, if plot didn't demand otherwise?

  • Also, Gremmy clearly said anything he imagines becomes reality, so the fact that he imagined his creation out of existence, doesn't change the fact that he still used his core ability, regardless of who or what he used it on.
"Again, You have to prove Yhwach can close the distance and get close enough to "draw an imaginary line against across Madara's throat", this hasn't changed. And you still haven't proven Yhwach gets past Limbos or especially genjutsu, which are guaranteed one shots."

  • Besides a giant speed gap, Yhwach having shadow manipulation which can be used for attack, defense, and transportation, and him literally being able to create portals for travel? Limbo hasn't even one-shot anybody in his own verse, and Yhwach has too much hax to allow IT to happen.
"Not seeing what Madara has to fear being as he doesn't fear even death, so...and tell me what the question does while you're at it, lol."

  • Clearly you don't know how the fear works. Getting hit by the thorns induce insane levels of fear. The question makes him doubt himself and his abilities, which Madara definitely does multiple times throughout the series.
"Assuming Yhwach uses the Iron before he is killed by a limbo, which is highly highly unlikely, he still gets one shotted by genjutsu."

  • Already addressed this wank. Also on top of the iron, he has blut vein to further increase his defensive capabilities.
"Madara never went h2h agaist Sasuke."

  • Sure he did. Madara tried to steal his eye but got a sword through the body, then he ran away to steal Kakashi's eye, and Sasuke blitzed him.
"Honestly, this is a baseless cop out argument from you. Come on, I expect better from you."

"With Sharingan precog, and chakra sensing, Naruto characters have reacted to attacks and characters vastly faster than themselves"

  • Irrelevant, since we clearly see him get blitzed by Sasuke. That list doesn't change anything.
Also, with the underbelly, Yhwach would be able to pinpoint Madara's chakra network, and attack any weak spots in it, which will eventually deplete his chakra and cause paralysis, and knock him unconscious.

Using the yourself, he can literally turn into Madara and gain his memories and abilities, thus having complete knowledge on Madara, and being as strong as him too, until (and if) he can become a stronger version of himself. Even though Yhwach is already leagues above Madara in AP.
 
That is the case for both characters, though Yhwach's dura is at least moon level, likely higher, and that's before amps I assume.
 
And I'm done arguing with UMR about this. It's clear we have differing opinions and continuing will just make us go in circles. I highly disagree with tou on the abilities and the way you're pushing them. The manga doesn't agree with you from my view point and I know, vise versa.

So, I digress, do whatever.
 
Limbos exist on a separate plane


and Unite My Rice we dont need your opinion on that cuz manga already state that Limbos exist on a separate plane so stop denying

+ only cross dimensional senser can sense him and rinnagan


+ why people saying that visionary stomp did all of u forgot madara also has yin-yang release
 
Anybody who read my post for even 10 seconds would understand that I was never debating against that.

It was said that Limbos exist on a separate plane and attack from a separate plane.

What I said was that be that as it may, the limbos still physically interact with people in the normal dimension all the same, since they can obviously attack them.


And if you're trying to imply Madara has COAT, I'm gonna stop you right there.
 
And if you're trying to imply Madara has COAT, I'm gonna stop you right there.
do even know what yin-yang release does

yin-yang release=Reality Warping

and COAT is simply Technique of yin-yang release

from db

Heading: Yin-Yang Release Techniques. The "origin's" properties are filled with great mysteries. The Yin-Yang Release techniques are analyzed here.
Six Paths: The secret technique forming all creation out of nothingness and giving it life.
Ôåô Spiritual and physical energy. That is Yin-Yang Release.
"Yin Release", which creates form out of nothingness and "Yang Release", which breathes life into form. The one with the skill to manipulate those two attributes, the Sage of Six Paths Hagoromo Otsutsuki, developed the "Creation of All Things Technique". He also created the nine bodies of the Tailed Beasts out of the Ten-Tails chakra, making them gifts of Yin-Yang Release. After this, the Uchiha Clan inherited Yin Release and the Senju Clan inherited Yang Release.
Ôåæ Naruto, who acquired Hagoromo's power, demonstrates perfect [use?] of the Yin-Yang Release power.
 In Hiden Ninjutsu, there are remains of Yin-Yang Release...!!
Hiden: Parts of Yin-Yang Release have flown into the basis of general techniques.
"For example, the Akimichi Clan increases their body mass with Yang Release, [while] the Nara Clan can expand, contract and transform shadows because of Yin Release."

from manga
Creation of All Things


It was said that Limbos exist on a separate plane and attack from a separate plane. What I said was that be that as it may, the limbos still physically interact with people in the normal dimension all the same, since they can obviously attack them.
0674-006
yes if limbo want they can block or attack but i dont know
how a dimensional attack work


even tho limbo was fighting naruto but when sasuke attack him it didnt hit him


then sasuke state only
0674-009
six path sejutsu can hurt them
 
So in other words, what we already know doesn't change, and it's further confirmed that only sage chakra can damage limbo.
 
Why are y'all acting like Madara is the only one being wanked on this thread... Yhwach has absolutely zero showings with the Sternitter's abilities so how can y'all argue how well and to what extent he could use their powers? What you guys are saying is purely speculation. Actually I don't even understand why this site allows Yhwach to use their abilities in vs threads in the first place lol
 
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