Madara Uchiha vs. Natsu Dragneel

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

The fight takes place in Magnolia.

Madara: 4 (Meosos, Theglassman12, Delta3000, WilliamShadow)

Natsu: 0

Prime Madara and Post Second Timeskip Natsu. Speed is equalized. Genjutsu is restricted in both rounds. Who wins?

 

[Meosos]

If you have to restrict Madara, because he would overpower Natsu, then its not a real fight at all

I go with Madara in both rounds. He has the advantage in close combat with sharingan, susanoo and regen.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I had to restrict him because of his hax which would pretty much ensure that he would stomp Natsu. It wouldn't be a good fight otherwise. Don't forget that Natsu can eat Madara's fire jutsu to get stronger.

Madara: 1

Natsu: 0

 

[Theglassman12]

I believe Madara has the edge on this with his more versatile set of abilities. Especially limbo, which Natsu can't see at all.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

Madara slams both; and honestly this shouldn't have been made if you had to nerf Madara so hard JUST to compare him to Natsu.

 

[Omega998]

I don't think madara can use limbo without rikudo mode since he has trouble to use that even in rikudo mode

 

[Theglassman12]

Madara also had one eye during the time he used limbo.

 

[Omega998]

Madara also had one eye during the time he used limbo.

it doesn't matter he use 1 aye or not..the problem is he has trouble to use that power even with juubi chakra

 

[Theglassman12]

And we never got to see him use it with two eyes. It's like trying to use susanoo with one eye.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Round 1 is the priority. I restricted Madara a lot in the second round a lot so there would be room for a proper debate. Basically, Round 2 is a bonus round.

 

[LucyyXNyuXHana]

I don't think madara can use limbo without rikudo mode since he has trouble to use that even in rikudo mode

He used it fighting the tailed beasts before going ten tails.

 

[Delta3000]

Madara both rounds because: Round 1) he is better in h2h; tactically he is vastly superiour and he has susanoo and izanagi (unless we are restricting izanagi). Round 2) natsu has no way of winning, Natsu is defenceless against limbo and Madara has all the advantages i mentioned in round 1.

 

[Takanome_shanks]

Madara win both round really more powerfull than Natsu. No match.

The only way something change is a unknown abilities of Natsu like transform in Dragon or Fullf deamon.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Well, Madara has been upgraded so it's a stomp in his favor now.

Guess someone can close this.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I guess this can continue now?

 

[Delta3000]

Given that Madara doesn't have the ap to harm natsu now, shouldn't his restrictions be lifted but natsu gets knowledge of his abilities to make it fair.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

You mean Round 2? I can give him access to the Gedo since he's Large Island level with that.

 

[Delta3000]

Both rounds really. Prime Madara only has mountain ap without 9 tails and revived+sage mode Madara is much the same.

What i was thinking is; none of Madara's abilities are restricted but Natsu knows about all of them, for example he knows not to look into Madara's eyes because if he does he'll get genjutsued.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Technically, Madara is also Large Island level but he was forgotten during the revisions but I've removed the restriction of him not being able to summon Kurama. I'll give him access to the Gedo in Round 2.

Oh, so I should remove the restriction on genjutsu too?

 

[ShadowSoul123]

Madara should win with relative ease. He has a fair amount of hax such as limbo and with that could kill natsu without natsu realizing

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Well, Natsu has knowledge on his hax. And what about Round 1?

 

[Davidsteel1]

Hmm question; where does FT stand on the whole "illusion" thing? Characters have shown to be able to straight up cancel out illusions made by their opponents or as with Erza are able to see through them due to physical defects or have no qualms with straight up maiming themselves in order overcome them. But illusion users are few and far between in verse so how is this handled?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Dunno. Maybe it depends on the proficiency of the characters involved. And doesn't Erza have an artificial eye for that?

 

[Davidsteel1]

Yup she does

 

[Delta3000]

@fingers, isn't that just for his susanoo's durability?

@davidsteel1, illusions in the FT verse are basically holograms.genjusu on the other hand is trapping the victim in a dream.

 

[Blanked]

^actually you are wrong those holograms are mind projections, the one on gmg is an illusion that affects those around you(by creating an invisible wall and showing to the outside what the user wants) and Midnights illusion affect people just like genjutsu is creating a dream like he did with Erza and Jellal and meredy. In fact Erza can not be affected by genjutsu beacuse that illusion is directly on her while Jellal was unaffected cause he didn't look at midnight's eyes just like with Sharingan.

@Delta if you don't know something than don't share wrong informations.

Anyway Madara is much more experienced so Natsu is pretty much scr**** in this battle so both rounds Madara.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@fingers, isn't that just for his susanoo's durability?

@davidsteel1, illusions in the FT verse are basically holograms.genjusu on the other hand is trapping the victim in a dream.

What I mean is that his AP with Perfect Susanoo was supposed to be upgraded too.

 

[Delta3000]

@Williamshadow,

I'll agree that the illusion Ivan made affected the mind since it decived everyone including Mavis and Erza.

Midnight's are a bit weird; they seemingly created a dream but his magic cannot manipulate the body and therefore the brain and if it was a dream Erza's eye would have been useless. This could be an inconsistency/mistake on Mashima's part.

Mavis'es illusions are definitely holograms because they are visibly affected by things passing through them which wouldn't happen if her magic affected the mind.

 

[ScarletFirefly]

Madara haxes him into oblivion.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

You mean Round 1 or Round 2?

 

[Takanome_shanks]

madara stomp so easily why ?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Huh?

 

[Diddle_dorp]

Actually occular genjutsu dosent require eye contact, Itachi got people using his finger and Madara is much better than Itachi so if we allow genjutsu to effect Natsu than he cant really protect himself from it.

 

[Blanked]

@Williamshadow,

I'll agree that the illusion Ivan made affected the mind since it decived everyone including Mavis and Erza

I will say this only once more and if you wish to accept it you will, if not that's your problem.

Ivan creates an invisible wall which doesn't allow anyone outside to see inside it doesn't affect people's mind directly.

Don't use the excuse as inconsistencies please, since Jellal want affected by that spell ethier with his eyes closed which is another proof that it works like genjutsu since genjutsu works only if you are with your eyes open. Until I see an actual scan where it's showed differently I don't even want to hear other excuses.

Mavis uses holograms yes just like with mind projections.

 

[Blanked]

FT verse simple has both illusions like genjutsu and illusions that are holograms.

 

[Delta3000]

Which chapter are you getting that description of Ivan's illusion from?

IIRC genjutsu enters the brain through the victims open eyes and takes control of the brain causing the target to percive whatever the caster wants. If what is messing with your perception is already in your brain then closing or damaging your eyes would do nothing; so Midnight's illusions must be holograms. In addition i recall that he creates his illusions by distorting light and sound.

 

[Blanked]

There is no real description,but you can see it since Ivan could never possible use illusion on several thousand persons at once.

You can give all definitions you want, but show me when did genjutsu work on someone who closed his eyes. Let me spare you some time. Never. And anyway since we equalise verse and Erza is also clearly said to be resistant on with that one eye there is not a single reason to say otherwise.

She has resistance on illusions or even better any eye magic if that is better for you, at least like that you could argue whether normal illusion would have effect, but that's almost impossible since Sharingans genjutsu is on higher scale than regular illusions.

 

[Davidsteel1]

@Delta don't know about Midnight distorting light and sound, he always seemed to refer to his illusions as "nightmares" iirc so I guess that suggests that he is trapping them in a dream like state? I don't really know, but what about Mystogan? He tried to capture Laxus in an illusion (though he saw through it) there was no indication any of the other characters witnessed it so does that suggest it functions like a genjutsu? Or maybe its entirely different, like he just causes his target to hallucinate? I really don't know, haxed abilities have always confused me.

 

[Blanked]

Laxus figured it was an illusion and used his lighting to shock himself out of it.

 

[Czuczian11]

Yes Midnight illusions were just extension of his abilitiy to reflect attacks, he just reflects sounds and light. Also it's power depends on hour- during midnight it is most powerfull. IIRC Erza was also in not really good mental health during that fight due to stuff concerning Jellal so it could also affect her ability to percive that visual illusions.However Mystogan illusions were affecting mind if i remeber correctly (at least it made Laxus think he was moving) but they were easily dispeled once target realizes that he is in illusion. Also even Mystogan said that he was buing time for offensive spell with long cast time with that illusion IIRC.