Luffy vs Garou (Grace)

[Xulrev]

So let's compare them really quick:

Luffy - Rubber-man whose body is absurdly durable and allows for notable stat-amps. Attacks with straight-on blows and has nearly non-existent combat skill, relies on hitting hard enough that the opposing dude just stays down(Every fight ever). Has to rely on absurd, borderline-mentally-deficient tactics when met with foes he cannot hit(Enel)....or simply runs away to charge up(Katakuri).

Garou - Martial arts genius whose primary-trained skill relies on redirection of blows and utilizing a foe's striking power against them(Tank Top Master), had difficulty one time with a non-human foe(Watchdog Man), can mimic martial arts on-the-fly after witnessing them a single time(Whirlwind Iron-Cutting Fist seen once by Bomb), and his speed increases the longer he fights/more he gets hurt(vs Orochi as mentioned by Gyoro Gyoro ).

At a simple glance, the fact that Luffy hits a ton harder really doesn't matter here, speed equalized or not. With speed equalized, Luffy's speed amp is noticeable but doesn't hit nearly hard enough to put Garou down for good(evidenced by his surviving Overgrown Rover blasting him through dozens of floors andnotably still fighting and taking more of those blasts), and Garou's speed amp will kick in by the time Luffy realizes he's not putting Garou down. That, combined with Garou's exceptionally superior skill, redirection, and pseudo-precog via analysis of his opponent's moves means that Luffy has to put Garou down in one hit from the get-go or he will lose the battle of attrition.

To pre-empt anyone claiming Garou can't hit hard enough: Garou can utilize Flowing Water Rock Smashing Fist to hit Luffy with force equivalent to Luffy's own blows repeatedly, or simply redirect every blow and hit with sharp, quick blows to the face that can make him bleed(Rob Lucci kick to Luffy's face made him bleed ), or utilize Whirlwind Iron-Cutting Fist which could slice through several feet of solid rock with no difficulty.

Garou's skill is way too vast a gap for Luffy to bridge here, meaningfully, when Garou explicitly dunks on persons who are straightforward bricks. I have to claim Garou wins

 

[The_Calaca]

"and has nearly non-existent combat skill"

I stopped here and I won't read anymore after you deliberately ignored everything above.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

 

[Schnee_One]

I'm going to retract my vote real quick

 

[Xulrev]

@Calaca

So you deliberately are just ignoring a contrary opinion arbitrarily? Instead of handwaving a well-sourced argument, I would implore you to showcase Luffy being 'skilled' in combat. Not utilizing intelligence in a questionable manner as he has done so against Enel, which I do explicitly point out in my own answer, but martial combat skill.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I'm a tad bit saddened by the lack of "I need a martial artist in my crew!" or something like that in the OP.

Monster Trio becomes a Monster Quadro.

That doesn't flow off the tongue as easily.

 

[The_Calaca]

Yeah, just like you did with the arguments above.

The only thing I need to do is saying that Luffy's fighting style is able to match blow for blow with Lucci, predicting Blueno's moves and his ingenuity (what you called borderline-deficient-mentally tactics) is able to overcome enemies that can't be fight against in conventional ways.

Martial combat skill is good, but Luffy is able to compete with characters with comparable (albeit lower) skill.

@DragonEmperor

Jinbe says hi.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

fooook I forgoooot okay, then the Monster Monster of the crew

 

[Xulrev]

I ignored nothing at all.

Luffy has beaten foes with physical superiority. His 'fighting style' is literally punching and kicking someone until they stay down. I called his attempt at fighting Enel by fighting without thinking (which left him worthless) borderline-mentally-deficient, you'd do well to read what I argued and debate against that instead of falsifying my statements please and thank you.

Luffy has never demonstrated a way around someone redirecting his blows, Fact.

Luffy has no way to harm someone who can react to his attacks and also read his intentions, Fact (before Enel gets brought up yet again, Luffy launched a bunch of attacks at a blunt surface and Enel didn't bother trying to react because he was caught offguard. Garou isn't that dumb nor does he rely on precog like Enel does).

Garou has at least one objective way to fatally wound Luffy, Fact (Whirlwind Iron-Cutting Fist).

Garou can redirect Luffy's blows back at him, Fact (as seen vs Tanktop Master).

Luffy is facing down a wall he can't get around. Luffy has zero win conditions. Garou has at least one. Garou simply wins.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

>"Zero win conditions"


*Laughs in Gear Third*

 

[The_Calaca]

Yeah, because he doesn't have hax or a big array of abilities. What are you expecting from a dude who's fighting style relies on physical combat? Luffy's skill isn't as good as Garou, but he's no slouch in combat like you're trying to make him look like.

Why would the redirecting blow-strategy do a thing against someone who has Blunt Force Resistance to that point? Garou will have to capitalize the piercing damage or become far stronger than Luffy before he can do actual damage to his rubber body.

Dude, that scene is the explanation of why Mantra didn't work. Enel wasn't caught off guard. His Mantra doesn't work against attacks that not even Luffy knows where will land on. Same with Garou. He can't read the intentions of someone who doesn't know where's attacking, which might be (like you said) mentally deficient in other scenarios, but the fact that Luffy came up with such tactic shows that he's not stupid when it comes to fight.

Plus, if Luffy has zero win conditions as you said (which is of course untrue) this will be closed for being a stomp. But oh, look, Luffy's around 3x stronger in base, G2 stomps people comparable to his base and G3 almost one-shoted someone comparable if not slightly superior to his G2 after amping himself with a Durability Enhancer technique.

G2 is more than enough to put Garou down, but right now Garou is faster for some reason I don't understand. Even being at speed disadvantage, Garou's abilities are good enough to prevent getting blitzed here.

 

[Xulrev]

A massively-telegraphed attack is not a win condition, it's a liability when your opponent is a skilled fighter

 

[Xulrev]

@Calaca

I'm confused. You're saying it's an explanation of how Mantra doesn't work, thus Enel wasn't offguard...when his precog didn't work and he took an attack as a result, the definition of being offguard?

Intelligence is being conflated with skill by you in your argumentation here, Calaca. They're separate things entirely. Luffy absolutely is a quirky fighter who comes up with nifty ideas on the fly, but he's not skilled.

Gear 2 does not possess nearly the physical feats to put Garou down as the Overgrown Rover feats factually prove.

Being stronger than someone who can redirect your attacks is meaningless, honestly.

Gear 3 is utterly useless since it's massively telegraphed and renders Luffy borderline-immobile afterward.

Garou has a speed boost as demonstrated vs Orochi.

I honestly don't see what's hard to get here. I get repping your favorite verse, and I'm obviously an enormous One Piece fan myself, but facts are facts.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Luffy FRA

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

And grace starts again

 

[Xulrev]

For what it's worth:

Speed and skill are two of the most important defining stats when determining who wins in a fight between non-hax using characters.

This is a speed unequalized fight.

Garou has superior reactions and combat speed to win the speed category (scales to Atomic Samurai directly per his profile) whereas Luffy scales to arbitrary numbers (faster than Lucci who scales to....Luffy's Base).

Garou has the objective suplex-win in the skill category.

Luffy hits harder.

Hitting hard is nice and all, but it's meaningless when you literally never hit your opponent.

 

[The_Calaca]

Match was equalized for some reason I don't get at all with all things considered. I see that as an attempt to give Garou the victory when the match was fine before, but PaChi thinks that the difference is fair for some reason.

In a speed equal match Luffy can't blitz with Garou's abilities considered. With speed unequal he'll blitz.

@Xulrev

Enel was using Mantra. Mantra doesn't work against non-intentional attacks. Enel got rekt. Simple as that.

"He's not skilled"

Yeah, sure. Whatever. I already adressed that part. Next.

>Gear 2 does not possess nearly the physical feats to put Garou down as the Overgrown Rover feats factually prove.

So you're saying that Garou is tougher because he scales to someone who's above him (because that's Rover's best scaling to date). I guess Luffy can't put down someone with that kind of scaling behind him

>Gear 3 is utterly useless since it's massively telegraphed and renders Luffy borderline-immobile afterward.

To answer this I need to see a scan where Garou redirected an attack from Orochi without any repercussions. G3's limbs are wider than Orochi's I think so if he tries to do that he'd get the Lucci treatment.

>Garou has a speed boost as demonstrated vs Orochi.

Which is why speed should be equalized or Garou will start blitzing pretty quick in the fight.

>I get repping your favorite verse, and I'm obviously an enormous One Piece fan myself, but facts are facts.

What has this to do with anything? Guess I have to say that since I'm a Garou fan no matter who wins here I lose.

Edit:

I've already said that with speed unequal Garou eventually smacks.

>Luffy scales to arbitrary numbers

Dude, wtf?

Mach 909 comes from Nami. Fricking Nami. Kalifa is faster than Nami, and I don't have to tell you how big is the difference between Kalifa and Lucci, right? Well, G2 kept up with Zoan Lucci who's >>> Base Lucci which is at the very least 6x stronger than Kalifa (probably not as fast, but still far faster than her).

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Ok, speed is equalized now, because otherwise Garou just blitzes, it seems

 

[Xulrev]

You've never addressed Luffy's skill except in vague superfluous notions that don't engage the point since no feats of his skill exist.

I have zero clue what you're even attempting to argue with my pointing out Garou's factual durability. Engage the feats or don't, it doesn't change the facts.

I have zero clue why you believe I need to prove Garou does anything other than simply....dodge a massively-telegraphed attack?

Based on evidence supported by feats, Garou wins as I've pretty conclusively shown.

 

[Xulrev]

Also, Calaca, trying to scale from Doriki Levels is absurdly ridiculous, it's why I state that Luffy's speed is arbitrary during his Lucci fight

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

This thread seem to have gotten interesting; why the speed unequalized, I thought it was equalized before? Massively Hypersonic vs Massively Hypersonic+ seem wierd to me

While I do say that Garou is more skilled than Luffy, Luffy is still a very skilled brawler. His control over his rubber body is incredible. Luffy is not one to play fair, he will use whatever means he can to hit his opponent, thus using his environment to his advantage. Luffy's instincts is something to not overlook as well. He not gonna to try the same thing over and over if said option didn't work the 5th time. He could easily wrap himself around Garou's arm when he try to utilize his fighting style, rendering it useless for the moment and launching his own attack or wrap himself around his whole body and basically using a headbutt at the moment.

Also, Luffy could further increase his resistance to blunt attacks with his Gum Gum Balloon technique.

EDIT: He is capable of discerning an enemy's technique and can use them himself, aka Soru

>Gear 2 does not possess nearly the physical feats to put Garou down as the Overgrown Rover feats factually prove.

....What? Is there a calculation for Overgrown Rover that prove so? Gear 2nd should be scaling >526KT for matching Zoan Lucci who should be stronger than Asura Zoro.

 

[The_Calaca]

I don't like going over the same points over and over since you're just ignoring the points and I have better things to do.

Let's agree to disagree. I keep telling you that Luffy doesn't need to use G3 to win since G2 is way above his base power but you're just saying that Luffy can only with with it.

Luffy compete with martial artists. Fact.

Luffy can overcome precognition. Fact.

Luffy has good enough experience and skill (BUT HE'S NOT AS SKILLED AS GAROU I'm capping this in order to make sure you read this and don't come with the same points again to perform an ad nauseam). Fact.

Luffy's far stronger. Fact.

Garou's faster with speed unequal. Even with speed equal he can compete with Luffy's amps. Fact.

Luffy's resistance makes most of Garou's arsenal useless unless he becomes far stronger than Luffy (which he won't before getting beaten). Fact.

I've argued why Luffy win in a speed equal match. Do whatever you want. Grace has started anyway.

Edit:

>Doriki can't be used

Guess what? We're using them in the profiles.

 

[Xulrev]

Luffy beats martial artists by being overwhelmingly superior in all physicals. Fact.

Luffy can beat one person who relies solely on precog to fight. Fact.

Luffy gets hurt by Garou due to Whirlwind Iron-Cutting Fist. Fact.

It's easy to just keep countering the same points that get brought up.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

This thread seem to have gotten interesting; why the speed unequalized, I thought it was equalized before? Massively Hypersonic vs Massively Hypersonic+ seem wierd to me .

Speed is equal, tho

 

[Xulrev]

This thread honestly should be re-done since it altered from speed eq to speed uneq to speed eq again, OP. Altering stipulations on the fly, mid-thread, seems suspicious if this is going to be added to either character's profile. Arguing in good fun I'm fine with it, however.

 

[The_Calaca]

Luffy matched Lucci while being noticeable inferior to him. Fact.

>Luffy can beat one person who relies solely on precog to fight. Fact.

>Luffy gets hurt by Garou due to Whirlwind Iron-Cutting Fist. Fact.

Did I ever say that these points were untrue? Don't see the point in arguing this.

Edit: This thread started with speed equal. Every Luffy's vote was based on that so those votes are valid.

Redoing this while it doesn't have even 100 replies is unnecessary.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

This thread honestly should be re-done since it altered from speed eq to speed uneq to speed eq again, OP. Altering stipulations on the fly, mid-thread, seems suspicious if this is going to be added to either character's profile. Arguing in good fun I'm fine with it, however.

The majority of the votes were done when speed was still equal

Only Iapitus voted when speed was unequal, I think

 

[Xulrev]

You bringing up those points of yours is irrelevant, then, if you don't even disagree with my points of why Luffy loses.

 

[PlumCrayfish376]

Speed is equal, tho

Oh you change it back, didn't notice.

 

[The_Calaca]

Because I'm adressing precognition to prove that Luffy knows about an actual precognition and how to overcome it.

The other point is something I've never adressed. Piercing damage is effective against Luffy and that's a fact. Don't see the point in bringing that when all of us know it.

 

[Callsign_Castle]

This thread honestly should be re-done since it altered from speed eq to speed uneq to speed eq again, OP. Altering stipulations on the fly, mid-thread, seems suspicious if this is going to be added to either character's profile. Arguing in good fun I'm fine with it, however.

Agreed.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The majority of the votes were done when speed was still equal

Only Iapitus voted when speed was unequal, I think.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Ok, I've fixed the voting count based on people that voted for Luffy/Garou with speed equal

 

[MachTwo]

Wait, isn't Speed Equalized only affects the base speed? this looks silly if one will need to restrict Garou evolution because it was too much for luffy to handle, in that case just swap luffy with someone else.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Garou's evolution is not restricted. And that takes some time

 

[MachTwo]

>Garou's evolution is not restricted. And that takes some time

I see, so you have no reason to restricted his speed amp, it takes some time so luffy only need to beat him before Garou become too fast for him, if he cant do that..well he lose.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Expect that I didnt restrict? What are you talking about?

 

[MachTwo]

>Which is why speed should be equalized or Garou will start blitzing pretty quick in the fight.

Make it clear in the OP that you only equalize base speed.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

On a Speed Equal match, speed amps are still allowed

 

[MachTwo]

Thats cool. I see Calaca ignore his speed amp because ''speed equalized'' but I guess all is clear now. Luffy can amp his speed with G2 too so idk what the point of ignoring their speed amps.