Lucifer Morningstar (DC) Tier 1-A Rating

[Fatherofdemons]

Okay, if Elder God Demonbane is allowed to be High 1-A simply because of his ability to have infinite versions of himself that are all different and OP, then why can't Lucifer? In his depowered state without his Morningstar powers Lucifer flies across The Void and infinite variations/possibilities of himself appear as he is inscribed into all the different Creations that rise and fall.

As we know, a Creation in DC means an infinitely layered metaverse with infinite dimensions and infinite universes. They're basically Nyarlathotep's Klein Bottles, but bigger simply because they're Creations. Lucifer has infinite variations due to these infinite Creations that exist in The Void, and that was depowered. I don't see why he isn't simply High 1-A considering he also escaped The Presence's function and defied his will completely.

Not to mention, The Presence not being High 1-A is off by a mile. The whole "world of cats" nonsense makes no sense and hasn't been touched upon in DC ever since, not to mention not in Vertigo either. I don't see why it's continually used to downplay God's power in DC.

End of rant.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Not how it works. For one, that's not why EGD is High 1-A. At all. He's that high because if it weren't for the existence of Azzy, he'd be omnipotent. In order to be High 1-A, you're basically tier 0 if not for one small thing. The fact that Lucifer lost before and was depowered by someone not named The Writer and increased with the fact that he's below the Presence, who himself is below the Primal Monitor, who is below The Writer. Finally, why is one infinity bigger than the other simply by being creations? That also doesn't work like that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

No, I'm sorry. Lucifer isn't 1-A for being in the void, if he was then every angel would be 1-A. Also, yes, infinite creations are constantly forming and dying in the void, but that doesn't scale to Lucifer. It scales to Presence and Elaine, though, since the later causes this to happen by flying.

And The Presence isn't Omnipotent. You can't ignore one of the basis of the Sandman cosmology, and something that Mike Carlin used in his Lucifer run. Also The Presence isn't High 1-A in any way, he:

Isn't Omniscient. Has a 100% equal rival. Had half of his power stolen by The Carnivore. Can be hurt.

And Lucifer didn't do what you describe in the OP, anyway. He relooked through all of the universe's 20 billion year history in an eye blink. Which is insane, but not like you are describing.

 

[Fatherofdemons]

He was depowered by The Presence leaving existence. God created both Lucifer and Michael. And his only only depowering were him willfully cutting his wings off, and giving his Morningstar powers to Mazikeen. Literally nothing but himself or those above him have depowered Lucifer.

The Overvoid is straight up the page comics are written in. There's no reason to use it as a standard considering how Grant Morrison loves 4th-wall interaction. It simply does not work out.

Yog-Sothoth definitely is probably above Demonbane, as even in the b.s. that was Vortex Blaster Demonbane, Yog-Sothoth managed to survive and keep reality existing.

 

[Fatherofdemons]

@Matthew Schroeder

I didn't mean that just being in The Void entailed 1-A rating. I was just using it to express the lowest quartile to rank a depowered Lucifer by.

The infinite Creations aren't being constantly made anew by Elaine and The Presence. They're simply other branches of Elaine, God's, and Lucifer's Creations because of the sheer infinity they inhabit in The Void. We know that Lucifer's Creation is the same size as both. Didn't Lucifer gain the Demiurgos at one point? I'll look for the scan if you'd want it.

I never called God omnipotent.

His "equal rival" is straight up another side of the same coin. They even merged so that's completely irrelevant now. His omniscience doesn't let him see those of comparable power. Can you provide scans for The Carnivore "stealing" half the power of The Presence? Makes no sense to take half of infinity. He can be hurt by beings of comparable power like Lucifer and Michael, and by something he created himself to be capable of killing him.

He looked through one Creation's history. Then another exploded behind him and God as they spoke. And The Void is infinite and we know there are Creations doing this infinitely, as there's no concept of non-infinity in The Void.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"He was depowered by The Presence leaving existence"

No, he depowered himself.

"God created both Lucifer and Michael"

And also Gabriel.

"And his only only depowering were him willfully cutting his wings off, and giving his Morningstar powers to Mazikeen."

He had his wings in the scene.

"The Overvoid is straight up the page comics are written in."

Yes, and all of DC is literally the size of a microbe to it. Creating comparatively microscopic specs across an infinite spectrum is not High 1-A. Encompassing all of said infinite spectrum would be, though.

 

[Fatherofdemons]

@Matthew Schroeder

"No, he depowered himself."

Doesn't counter my point that nobody other than God or someone of comparable power could. None of which exist other than The Void and The Writer that can actually do this to Lucifer straight up. Also, I'm talking about his fight with Fenris when Michael died.

"And also Gabriel."

Eh. Not the point here.

"He had his wings in the scene."

He still gave his Morningstar powers...willingly. I know, I've read all of Lucifer, Nirvana, and the new crappy one with some low-rate Presence replacement.

"Yes, and all of DC is literally the size of a microbe to it. Creating comparatively microscopic specs across an infinite spectrum is not High 1-A. Encompassing all of said infinite spectrum would be, though."

So how is Demonbane High 1-A?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"His "equal rival" is straight up another side of the same coin. They even merged so that's completely irrelevant now"

Elaine Belloc. The Great Evil Beast. The Carnivore after stealing his powers.

"They're simply other branches of Elaine, God's, and Lucifer's Creations because of the sheer infinity they inhabit in The Void."

No, they are not. The Silk-Man, who comes from a previous creation explicitly says that the other creations aren't Yahweh's. However Elaine did cause creations to rise and fall in the void by flapping her wings, so that does scale to her.

"Makes no sense to take half of infinity."

There are different levels of infinity in Cantor-Sets so it's not impossible. Also don't use math for 1-A beings.

 

[Fatherofdemons]

"Elaine Belloc. The Great Evil Beast. The Carnivore after stealing his powers."

Waiting on those The Carnivore scans. I already talked about GEB saying they merged. He gave Elaine the lordship of Creation himself after she took Michael's power. Irrelevant.

"No, they are not. The Silk-Man, who comes from a previous creation explicitly says that the other creations aren't Yahweh's. However Elaine did cause creations to rise and fall in the void by flapping her wings, so that does scale to her."

He said that the previous one he inhabited wasn't made by God. Elaine had all of Creation within herself when she was actually in The Void. You mean when her and Luci and Mazikeen and some angel wrapped up Creation right?

"There are different levels of infinity in Cantor-Sets so it's not impossible. Also don't use math for 1-A beings."

K

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"Waiting on those The Carnivore scans. I already talked about GEB saying they merged. He gave Elaine the lordship of Creation himself after she took Michael's power. Irrelevant."

Read the Carnivore storyline yourself, I don't need to post all the scans. So what if he merged with the Darkness. Shows that his power isn't quite infinite. He gave Elaine equal power to himself, it's not irrelevant considering he's scared of her in the new series.

"Elaine had all of Creation within herself when she was actually in The Void."

She merged her own creation, Lucifer's and Yahweh's, but that has been retconned with the new series (Maybe). But I mean when she's testing her God powers by hovering over the face of the abyss.

 

[Fatherofdemons]

"Read the Carnivore storyline yourself, I don't need to post all the scans. So what if he merged with the Darkness. Shows that his power isn't quite infinite. He gave Elaine equal power to himself, it's not irrelevant considering he's scared of her in the new series."

The new series is ass and has inconsistencies with the previous Vertigo and Lucifer runs. Come on don't go that route. It's butchering the characters and sotrylines. Although, I also wouldn't say God was afraid of her; just hesitant to use all his power in a stalemate against another nigh-omnipotent when he's trying to conquer his own Creation.

Also, The Carnivore took hostage God's feminine aspect. God also has a doggy aspect, Wally the Godboy aspect, Source, Word/Logos, and Hand aspects. Definitely not half unless my memory is complete shit. Pardon my French.

Him merging with the GEB simply means that neither were stronger, and that his power is now just that much more infinite. Not to mention, once again, they're two sides of the same coin. And if we go by GEB's description, he was the representation of The Void. But that's been retconned by there actually being an Overvoid.

"She merged her own creation, Lucifer's and Yahweh's, but that has been retconned with the new series (Maybe). But I mean when she's testing her God powers by hovering over the face of the abyss."

Well, Nirvana still had Lucifer's Creation as separate, and Lucifer had threatened to destroy her Creation before. Her merging them I don't quite remember. Can you point me in what issue of Lucifer it was? I can look for it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"The new series is ass and has inconsistencies with the previous Vertigo and Lucifer runs."

So the story isn't real because it's bad? Sorry, but that's not how it works.

Yes, but God's feminine half in that story was literally 50% of him. It was weird.

Also, Nigh-Omnipotence isn't a thing.

 

[Fatherofdemons]

"The new series is ass and has inconsistencies with the previous Vertigo and Lucifer runs."
So the story isn't real because it's bad? Sorry, but that's not how it works.

Yes, but God's feminine half in that story was literally 50% of him. It was weird.

Also, Nigh-Omnipotence isn't a thing.

Not because it's bad. Because it opens up plotholes and inconsistencies. Although yes, it is bad. But that's not the point of my debating.

The God's feminine half being 50% of him seems really out-of-place. Is Carnivore's run for sure canon?

Alright, he's really stronk. That better? Lol

Back to the original topic though; how is EDG High 1-A if someone like The Presence and Lucifer aren't? Lucifer displayed Athleta Aeternum in his own way, and Shiori from Masadaverse has the exact same ability as EDG and neither her nor her superiors are High 1-A either.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Carnivore story is from a 90s Supergirl comic. It's as DC Canon as it gets.

I'm pretty sure that what makes EGD High 1-A is that he has the sleeping Azathoth as a power source.

Also, here's Elaine's feat .

 

[Fatherofdemons]

Supergirl and Vertigo being introduced together was a thing? I thought only Sandman was canonical when he interacted with beings from DC. Him taking down Ultimator wasn't even canon. And neither was World's Funniest which included lots of canon dudes.

"I'm pretty sure that what makes EGD High 1-A is that he has the sleeping Azathoth as a power source."

That's like...exactly what Hadou Gods from Masadaverse use as their power source. The Throne and Taikyoku could definitely be attributed to Azathoth, as it's what makes up everything; concepts, space, time, the concepts of space and time, etc. Azathoth is just one thought to be omnipotent, but EDG has shown NOTHING to show he's superior to even Yog-Sothoth who is the representation of existence, and a probable equal to The Throne and First Heaven. Don't you guys have like only one Masadaverse guy? I can help out with power-scaling as I'm pretty knowledgeable on the verse and its power.

"Also, here's Elaine's feat."

Well, that's her with the same level of power as God. He should at least be High 1-A and so should she. They impose their wills on The Void, and that's above anything Demonbane has shown. The most he showed was imposing his will within Yog-Sothoth, but he never tested Yog-Sothoth's power. Yog-Sothoth is also below the Overvoid by quite a large margin.

 

[CynicalWeeaboo]

Was it ever proven that Demonbane uses Azzy as a source? I'm a pretty heavy debater of Demonbane and never really found solid proof of this.

And does it really matter when we have Vortex Blaste running around?

 

[Fatherofdemons]

Was it ever proven that Demonbane uses Azzy as a source? I'm a pretty heavy debater of Demonbane and never really found solid proof of this.
And does it really matter when we have Vortex Blaste running around?

Oh Cynical! It's ___Gilgamesh___

Also, Vortex Blaster Demonbane's feat has been seen as not canon by some sources. So, that one is really undetermined currently. Also, that would directly make Azathoth not omnipotent. And it would also make no sense as Yog-Sothoth was still capable of holding all of existence together, even though it'd all supposedly stop existing if Azzy woke up. Those contradict each other and Vortex Blaster seems to not make sense. Dunno about the Azzy being his power source though.

 

[Jonathanlighter]

@fatherofdemons You're so insanely wrong that its not even funny. Thats not why EDG is high 1-A. NOT AT ALL. You dont know how high 1-A works right? First of all, lucifer has weaknesses, so that automatically takes him away from high 1-A. There are several beings greater and more power than him, such as the presence or great evil beast, and even they're not high 1-A, cuz they're nothing to the overvoid who is nothing to the writer, so lucifer CANT be high 1-A. Being high 1-A isnt that simple, like summoning clones or having an OP ability

 

[AndrewBennet]

I honestly find yog sothoth as an rather overwanked character . He is basically Existence + void/darkness from which creations are spawned similar to what Dc has shown it in God head , COIE and other storylines . He doesn't have any noticeable similarities to over monitor.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I honestly find yog sothoth as an rather overwanked character . He is basically Existence + void/darkness from which creations are spawned similar to what Dc has shown it in God head , COIE and other storylines . He doesn't have any noticeable similarities to over monitor.

Is this for Demonbane Yog or Mythos Yog?

Because Matt or DarkLK would be far better versed in DMB Yog, but I can say this is an immense oversimplification of Mythos Yog. Especially when the Over Monitor is basically Yog-lite, anyway.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Matthew makes sense. Perhaps we should close this thread?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yes.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so.