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Lucifer Morningstar (CW) Upgrade and a few ability

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Sound: No, that seems like a very far-fetched way to characterize sound-manip
Pain: Sure
Fire: No, he's never demonstrated control over fire in any real meaningful way, it can't be inferred like that
Invulnerability: Sure
Enhanced Senses: Hearing prayers isn't enhanced senses
Reality Warping: When did any angel do that
Power Bestowal: Sure
Cosmic Awareness: Sure
Teleportation: Sure
Possession: Sure
Chronokinesis: Sure
HDE: No, HDE only refers to additional spatial axes.
 
Sound: No, that seems like a very far-fetched way to characterize sound-manip
I added another link, check again
Fire: No, he's never demonstrated control over fire in any real meaningful way, it can't be inferred like that
Lucifer has control over all hell: this includes the burning regions of hell and the flames in the hell cycles, so it can be inferred that he can control the hell flame. It has also been shown that demons like mallus and angels like manny have previously been able to control the flame.
Enhanced Senses: Hearing prayers isn't enhanced senses
Then what abilitie this?
Reality Warping: When did any angel do that
Manny and a lot of angels did this.
HDE: No, HDE only refers to additional spatial axes.
Is it not enough that he is a being who lives on a different plane of existence? This plane was not affected by a crisis that destroyed the entire multiverse.
 
I get that, but the others have the same statements.

I mean an explicit statement that he rules all the Hell areas, including where other leaders rule.
Now that I think about it, just the simple act of going to Lucifer directly rather than literally anyone else should be enough to cement the fact that he's also sovereign.
 
I made a few additions to the OP, can you check again and indicate whether you have joined or not?
 
I get that, but the others have the same statements.

I mean an explicit statement that he rules all the Hell areas, including where other leaders rule.
As soon as possible, I will add statements stating that lucifer has control over all hell
 
I'll evaluate the new powers tomorrow.

It's 1 AM here.
 
Let's start with the ability first
Sound: Dunno what this is, but it ain't sound manip in my eyes
Pain: Sure
Fire: Nah, I'd prefer proof and that ain't it
Invulnerability: Yeah angels repeatedly show immunity to mortal weapons, you could use a scan of that though
Enhanced Senses: That's just a form of Clairvoyance, I think
Reality Warping: I don't remember RW from anyone in the Lucifer show, but Lucifer is the lnly part of CW I've even watched
Power Bestowal: fine
Cosmic Awareness: fine
Teleportation: fine
Possession: fine
Chronokinesis: fine
HDE: not my strong suit, but no, you'd need Spatial axis for that one
Magic: I'd like a showing of magic from them or Lucifer himself
SS: where's my scans of all three?
 
As for the Infinite and angel stuff

Obviously don't use a wiki for scans

Is Michael some Uber powerful angel now since he can box Lucifer pretty well?

Low 2-C is unfounded unless there's a temporal axis, that's more High 3-A if the infinite stuff is true
 
Sure.
I can't judge this at the moment due to some circumstances.

So I'll just say neutral.
Hellfire Manipulation: he has full control over hell and can therefore control hellfire
Given the level of control he has, this is reasonable.

But, I'd limit it to Hell rather than his earthly stats.
Invulnerability: angel is immune to conventional damage thanks to his physiology
I wouldn't say this is invulnerability. Knives and bullets still pierce him, they just don't truly harm him.
Enhanced Senses: Angels can hear prayers
Can't they do that in heaven as well? This might be Clairvoyance.
Reality Warping: Angels can hear prayers and bring them to life. can alter reality in a far greater extent than other demons like Neron and other angels like Manny
Agree. Spoilers for other people.

It's literally a plot point that the entire world was dying by a thousand cuts due to their wish granting.
He didn't necessarily give it to Chloe, just like the mental barriers that render him vulnerable, it just didn't work properly on her and bounced back.
Seems good.
He can do this, as we see when he saves Chloe from Cain and co, and we see him travel across dimensions with them.
I'm neutral on this one, particularly.
That's specifically the angel Manny. So, I disagree.

Plus, it hugely contradicts Amenadiel and Lucifer explicitly having different P&A.
Higher-Dimensional Existence: he lives in heaven and hell, which are located on a different plane of existence
Different =/= higher dimensional.
  • Magic: as an archangel and lord of hell, he must be superior to demons like Mallus and neron
  • Self-Sustenance (Type 1, 2 and 3)
I disagree with the reasoning, but I'm pretty sure he should have it given his magical objects.
I'd make this a possibly, and limit it to his Hell-bound stats.
 
Fire: Nah, I'd prefer proof and that ain't it
He burned the grim reaper's sword
Magic: I'd like a showing of magic from them or Lucifer himself
Check the profile of Mallus and Neron
Is Michael some Uber powerful angel now since he can box Lucifer pretty well?
Michael is also an archangel like lucifer, so yes, he is much stronger than a normal angel and demons
Low 2-C is unfounded unless there's a temporal axis, that's more High 3-A if the infinite stuff is true
There is time in hell
 
Given the level of control he has, this is reasonable.

But, I'd limit it to Hell rather than his earthly stats.
Since he can burn flaming sword without a key, I think that his ability is not limited to hell
I wouldn't say this is invulnerability. Knives and bullets still pierce him, they just don't truly harm him.
Cain shoots lucifer, and lucifer is not impressed by it

Amenadiel is being shot and is not impressed

It is also mentioned many times during the series that the angels are invulnerability

Can't they do that in heaven as well? This might be Clairvoyance.
Yes, they can hear the prayers when they are in heaven.

Ok they get Clairvoyance instead of Enhanced Senses

Lucifer feels that Chloe is near him and makes himself vulnerable

Lucifer gets Enhanced Senses because he feels chloe is next to him
He didn't necessarily give it to Chloe, just like the mental barriers that render him vulnerable, it just didn't work properly on her and bounced back.
I don't fully understand, do you agree? Or do you not?

Different =/= higher dimensional.
Hell has similar characteristics as the 5th dimension;

The two exist on a different plane of existence, unaffected by the multiverse

In two dimensions, it is not affected by the extinction of the multiverse, and nothing will happen to its inhabitants.

They remember the old multiverse

The only difference is that someone was given a dimension number.

If it's still not enough, okay.

I disagree with the reasoning, but I'm pretty sure he should have it given his magical objects.
A preacher with Imogen's wing healed people. (Imogen is a fallen angel)

The people the preacher healed turned into ghouls and followed the wing.

Constantine said that ghouls were created by magic gone wrong.

Full quote.
"I call them ghouls."

"They're formed by magic gone wrong."
This quote proves that the powers of angels are magic.

(This excerpt is from the 1 th season 7th episode of Constantine)

(I couldn't find the video of this scene and now I don't have time to take the scene from the episode and upload it to youtube.)

I'd make this a possibly, and limit it to his Hell-bound stats.
I don't see why we should classify it with hell. There's no reason to think that you can't do this ability outside of hell
 
Since he can burn flaming sword without a key, I think that his ability is not limited to hell
I suppose that's fine.
Cain shoots lucifer, and lucifer is not impressed by it

Amenadiel is being shot and is not impressed

It is also mentioned many times during the series that the angels are invulnerability
I suppose it's selective, then. I guess this could be fine if you grab those invulnerability quotes, but other angels can physically harm other angels with punches, so it's a bit sketchy.
I know. That's my point.
Lucifer gets Enhanced Senses because he feels chloe is next to him
Where's that? He just sees her.
I don't fully understand, do you agree? Or do you not?
I don't.
Hell has similar characteristics as the 5th dimension;

The two exist on a different plane of existence, unaffected by the multiverse

In two dimensions, it is not affected by the extinction of the multiverse, and nothing will happen to its inhabitants.

They remember the old multiverse

The only difference is that someone was given a dimension number.

If it's still not enough, okay.
All that proves is that it's outside the multiverse's space-time. I'm not saying it's not possible, it's just not proof.
This quote proves that the powers of angels are magic.
Ok, sure.
I don't see why we should classify it with hell. There's no reason to think that you can't do this ability outside of hell
Except that he'd do it in Hell, and hasn't shown it otherwise.

Plus, he definitely wouldn't have the AP to do this in base.
 
Where's that? He just sees her.
If you watch the scene again, you can see that Chloe shoots lucifer's foot before getting out of the elevator and gets hurt.

So even though Chloe hasn't entered the room yet, Lucifer feels her presence and makes himself vulnerable

I don't understand why you don't agree, Lucifer unintentionally gives Chloe his own power because of his self-realization ability, and then takes it back from her.

He should get Power Bestowal for giving his own power to Chloe and he should get power absorption or Power Nullification in which he gets back the power he gave from Chloe
All that proves is that it's outside the multiverse's space-time. I'm not saying it's not possible, it's just not proof.
Okey
Except that he'd do it in Hell, and hasn't shown it otherwise.
Okay, then this ability is limited to hell
I suppose it's selective, then. I guess this could be fine if you grab those invulnerability quotes, but other angels can physically harm other angels with punches, so it's a bit sketchy.
Angels are invincible against things that are not divine. I mean, non-divine human weapons such as guns, knives do not affect them, but angels and demons can affect them because they are divine.
 
So even though Chloe hasn't entered the room yet, Lucifer feels her presence and makes himself vulnerable
Ok, that makes sense.
I don't understand why you don't agree, Lucifer unintentionally gives Chloe his own power because of his self-realization ability, and then takes it back from her.
Because, again, he's not actually giving her his abilities. It's just projection, like how he thought that Chloe rendered him vulnerable when it was self-actualisation.

He didn't really give her those abilities.
Angels are invincible against things that are not divine. I mean, non-divine human weapons such as guns, knives do not affect them, but angels and demons can affect them because they are divine.
Sure, then.
 
I'm limited to the Lucifer series so I'll comment on what I know.

  • Sound Manipulation: Neutral. Personally I think that's just him being very loud.
  • Pain Manipulation: Disagree but not entirely against this point. As per what he says, that's not pain but guilt. As a master torturer, Lucifer knew exactly what to whisper so that Frenchie is perpetually haunted. So this seems more mind manipulation.
  • Hellfire Manipulation: Sorta disagree. I noticed you mentioned hell and the flamgin sword. I mean if you add that caveat then I guess I'd be ok. But he's not throwing fireballs on earth.
  • Invulnerability: The fact he doesn't already have this is baffling.
  • Enhanced Senses: Agree with the concept but unsure about the terminology. By the wiki's definition enhanced senses requires one of the basic senses acting in an extreme way. I know they say they "hear" prayers but are they actually "hearing" them or is that just a turn of phrase. You can go with Enhanced Senses or Clairvoyance or Extrasensory Perception I'm fine with any of them.
  • Reality Warping: Agree
  • Power Bestowal: Disagree. Chloe never got Lucifer's power. She could never use it on anyone else.
  • Cosmic Awareness:
  • Power Absorption; See answer above
  • Teleportation: I'm iffy on this one. He certainly can travel from Point A to point B crazy fast but is that teleportation or just speed? Like when he got locked in a freezer he was stuck there. But I have seen other media where teleportation requires direct line of sight so... I don't know.
  • Possession:
  • Chronokinesis: I'll agree he has a resistance to it. But that is an Amenediel exclusive thing and it's limited to slowing and freezing. Lucifer never considered messing with time and the one time he did he went to Amenediel to do it for him.
  • Higher-Dimensional Existence:
  • Magic:
  • Self-Sustenance
  • Ice Manipulation Sorta disagree. The post mentioned freezing hell. It does seem has has absolute control over hell so yeah, he could probably freeze it over. And if you keep that caveat then I guess I'd be ok. But he isn't going to be making any instant popcicles on Earth.
 
Pain Manipulation: Disagree but not entirely against this point. As per what he says, that's not pain but guilt. As a master torturer, Lucifer knew exactly what to whisper so that Frenchie is perpetually haunted. So this seems more mind manipulation.
Since this ability can be gained with mind manipulation, it remains as pain manipulation.
  • Hellfire Manipulation: Sorta disagree. I noticed you mentioned hell and the flamgin sword. I mean if you add that caveat then I guess I'd be ok. But he's not throwing fireballs on earth.
As seen in the flaming sword, it is not limited to hell as it can use this ability in the world.
Enhanced Senses: Agree with the concept but unsure about the terminology. By the wiki's definition enhanced senses requires one of the basic senses acting in an extreme way. I know they say they "hear" prayers but are they actually "hearing" them or is that just a turn of phrase. You can go with Enhanced Senses or Clairvoyance or Extrasensory Perception I'm fine with any of them.
Changed hearing prayers to Clairvoyance and added new description for Enhanced Senses
Power Bestowal: Disagree. Chloe never got Lucifer's power. She could never use it on anyone else.
The justification of this ability has been changed
Changed Power Absorption to power nullification and added new justification
  • Teleportation: I'm iffy on this one. He certainly can travel from Point A to point B crazy fast but is that teleportation or just speed? Like when he got locked in a freezer he was stuck there. But I have seen other media where teleportation requires direct line of sight so... I don't know.
The majority accepted it as teleportation.
Chronokinesis: I'll agree he has a resistance to it. But that is an Amenediel exclusive thing and it's limited to slowing and freezing. Lucifer never considered messing with time and the one time he did he went to Amenediel to do it for him.
Removed from OP
Ice Manipulation Sorta disagree. The post mentioned freezing hell. It does seem has has absolute control over hell so yeah, he could probably freeze it over. And if you keep that caveat then I guess I'd be ok. But he isn't going to be making any instant popcicles on Earth.
This ability is restricted to hell
 
sound manipulation : I'm not sure about that so actually I don't think it can be because lucifer was coming from a distance so his voice sounded a bit like it was coming from a distance.

Pain manipulation : sure

hellfire manipulation : I actually have a problem with this because he never did it and if you say that the reaper burned his knife, it doesn't really work like that because he did it out of emotion, like a key.

invincibility : sure

enhanced senses : I don't have a problem with that, but there may be better examples for this, it would be great if you could find them

Clairvoyance :

Reality warping : sure

Power bestowal : He can't give it on his own, it may be by mistake or by mistake but it would be ridiculous to add it but he really can't use it or add it when he wants but for this he has to beat his sense

cosmic awareness : sure

power nullifıcation : As I said, this is both possible and not, but more in a positive way, so why not if it overcomes your feelings.

Teleportation : Of course they did this many times in the drama lucifer amenediel and mazikean teleported many times

Possession :

Magic : Of course, and the s in the lucifer sequence must be scaled to mallus

self-sustenance

İn hell ice manipulation : sure

Note : I may have made a wrong sentence because I did it with the translation. (;
 
  1. as the crisis on infinite earths event showed us, the dceu and the arrowverse are located in the same multiverse
  2. And as we know, there is only 1 hell in the multiverse, so the hell we see in dceu and the hell we see in arrowverse are the same hell.

for these reasons, lucifer scales to sabbac

also, lucifer's hell switch needs to be upgraded from 4c to at least low 2 c because he can control of hell, which has an infinite size

Age: Inapplicable (Predates Creation)
I don't have a problem with that, it's fine and I'll take a crt for that, it's about every universe in hell being a universe
 
Coming late, which is shameful because I'm huge fan of Lucifer and it's one of my favorite series

In general, there stuff I agree with and others I don't.

  • Sound Manipulation: I agree, cause his voice clearly has a reverb effect and everyone can hear it, not simply Chloe.
  • Pain Manipulation: I agree
  • Hellfire Manipulation: As much as I would him to have that, I don't think we can afford it. He doesn't demonstrate it as an ability in his series and the depiction of Hell in the series doesn't involve fire.
  • Invulnerability: I would change it to Nigh-Invulnerability, cause he can still be harmed by supernatural creatures and weapons, his invulnerability "only" plays out for mortal weapons and normal humans so it's mostly partial.
  • Enhanced Senses: Disagree for that example. He realized he was vulnerable because he hurt himself on the stairs, he looks clearly surprised when he sees Chloe coming. HOWEVER, I would say Enhanced Senses can be warranted by angels hearing prayers.
  • Clairvoyance: Agreed.
  • Reality Warping: Agreed. It's even a major plot point in the last season, angels are lost without a ruler for Heaven so they start granting prayers and accidentally cause mayhem, I remember they even bring a lion to life due to one prayer so he definitely should have that.
  • Cosmic Awareness: I agree. He apparently didn't leave his Earth yet was aware the Multiverse was ending.
  • Power Bestowal: Disagreed. It's an entirely unvoluntary effect based on self-actualization, Power Bestowal is something that must be wanted.
  • Power Nullification: Same as above, Power Nullification is about voluntarily nullifying an ability.
  • Teleportation: I...don't know. He seems capable of appearing randomely at will like distance doesn't matter even in Season 1 when he doesn't have his wings, meaning it's not like the other angels who can fly so...I don't disagree with it in essence, I'm just not sure.
  • Possession: I'll speak about it later but I disagree with this one. Angels in the Lucifer series are never seen possessing a human.
  • Magic: Don't really see any reason why he shouldn't have this but he never demonstrates proper "Magic", all his powers are inherently angelic. I didn't memorize every line so I can't exactly remember but I do believe sorcery is mentionned. Still not sure though.
  • Self-Sustenance: Agreed for Type 2, disagreed for Type 3 and for Type 1. We see him tired several times in the series, even when he's not vulnerable due to Chloe and we see angels breath to (Michael is clearly breathing in the four-way battle in 5X08). On the other hand, I can't remember a single time where he complains about being thirsty or hungry.
  • Ice Manipulation: Agreed, the mention about freezing Hell is pretty clear, especially since we see him shaping it however he wants it to be in Season 5.

About Hell, I think Lucifer should get a key for it. He doesn't have many abilities related to Hell on his profile but he already has many and adding more would make the page heavy. Plus, ice would only apply for Hell and same for Hellfire if it gets accepted so we can still gather them under the same tabber to make it more clear. Btw, his current Hell tier is "4-C in Hell" but while putting him to Low 2-C is a big jump (logically, Hell in Lucifer would be infinite since it's been there since the birth of the Universe and is supposed to imprison the souls of all evil humans who have died ever since Cain and Abel some billions of years ago and even other beings ever since its creation, I think it's safe it has to be nigh-infinite or something similar to house all these souls but there's no clear statement about that unfortunately anyway), I think we can safely change it to "at least 4-C in Hell", since he should be able to do much more than creating a sun.

Now, about the Arrowverse connections, the two series exist in the same Multiverse. Satan from Earth-1 is not Lucifer's counterpart like stated on the Arrowverse wiki (if we don't use the wiki to upgrade the character, I don't see why we should use it for a downgrade), they're clearly two different characters. For example, Satan has bat wings and a different powerset and personnality, so it's not a case of alternate counterparts. God creating an alternate Lucifer in Once Upon a Time is not related to Satan at all and doesn't mean Lucifer has multiple alternate versions.
However, there are indeed two different Hell. Hell in the Arrowverse is depicted as a giant, Balde-Runner-like city (minus the neons) while in Lucifer, Hell takes the form of a dark and ash-filled endless maze of doors with the damned locked behind them. Note that it's the exact same Hell during the whole series and while it's implied Lucifer can change it however he wants as its ruler and in the Arrowverse, there's no mention of anything related to Lucifer each time Hell has been shown (you can say he left long ago but the fact remains the two Hell have a different appearence anyway so the two realms are definitely different).

The confusing stuff is that Lucifer clearly exists in the Arrowverse but we only see him interacting with his own world aside from Constantine, Mia and Diggle on-screen, even though (again) he's clearly part of the greater Multiverse. While I would love a big upgrade for him, unfortunately we can't afford one (especially since now both the Arrowverse and Lucifer are over). So stuff related to the Arrowverse like possession and Magic are doubtful.
 
  • Power Bestowal: Disagreed. It's an entirely unvoluntary effect based on self-actualization, Power Bestowal is something that must be wanted.
  • Power Nullification: Same as above, Power Nullification is about voluntarily nullifying an ability.
In the last seasons of the show, he had his self-actualization ability under control.
  • Possession: I'll speak about it later but I disagree with this one. Angels in the Lucifer series are never seen possessing a human.
This ability is not shown throughout the series because Lucifer is against taking over humans and other angels wouldn't want to argue with an archangel who also has the Flaming Sword.
Self-Sustenance: Agreed for Type 2, disagreed for Type 3 and for Type 1. We see him tired several times in the series, even when he's not vulnerable due to Chloe and we see angels breath to (Michael is clearly breathing in the four-way battle in 5X08). On the other hand, I can't remember a single time where he complains about being thirsty or hungry.
It does not need oxygen and sleep, as it exists before time and literally stays in hell forever and guards it.
Now, about the Arrowverse connections, the two series exist in the same Multiverse. Satan from Earth-1 is not Lucifer's counterpart like stated on the Arrowverse wiki (if we don't use the wiki to upgrade the character, I don't see why we should use it for a downgrade), they're clearly two different characters. For example, Satan has bat wings and a different powerset and personnality, so it's not a case of alternate counterparts. God creating an alternate Lucifer in Once Upon a Time is not related to Satan at all and doesn't mean Lucifer has multiple alternate versions.
However, there are indeed two different Hell. Hell in the Arrowverse is depicted as a giant, Balde-Runner-like city (minus the neons) while in Lucifer, Hell takes the form of a dark and ash-filled endless maze of doors with the damned locked behind them. Note that it's the exact same Hell during the whole series and while it's implied Lucifer can change it however he wants as its ruler and in the Arrowverse, there's no mention of anything related to Lucifer each time Hell has been shown (you can say he left long ago but the fact remains the two Hell have a different appearence anyway so the two realms are definitely different).
The city we see in the Arrowverse is where the demons in hell hang out when they're not torturing souls. In Lucifer, we saw that lucifer told a demon to stop torturing and the demon was gone, so there is a place where demons go when they don't torture souls.

The endless door labyrinth filled with ashes we see in Lucifer is the part of the hell cycles.

In short, they are not different realms, just different regions.

Also, the Arrowverse hell was shown not just as a city but as fire (included in John's pocket-sized hellfires)

What you forgot is Lucifer's only name is not lucifer, and even in lucifer's series, they call him by different names other than Lucifer. And these names are directly mentioned in the Arrowverse.

Also, it is in the agreement between John and Lucifer. i.e. Lucifer was found in the Arrowverse even though he didn't appear on screen before Crisis.
 
In the last seasons of the show, he had his self-actualization ability under control.
I'll admit the last season was not my favorite by far and didn't leave me a great impact so I might have missed that
This ability is not shown throughout the series because Lucifer is against taking over humans and other angels wouldn't want to argue with an archangel who also has the Flaming Sword.
Problem is that the series never implies angels can do that as well. The restriction was strictly for demons, angels appear in their own form and we see this when they're in Hell or Heaven and still have the same appearence
It does not need oxygen and sleep, as it exists before time and literally stays in hell forever and guards it.
Hmm true for that, all types can work then
The city we see in the Arrowverse is where the demons in hell hang out when they're not torturing souls. In Lucifer, we saw that lucifer told a demon to stop torturing and the demon was gone, so there is a place where demons go when they don't torture souls.
Problem is that nothing is explained about that place. I'm on the side of saying the two fit well with each other but we have no clear statement or even implications about that
The endless door labyrinth filled with ashes we see in Lucifer is the part of the hell cycles.
The Hell loops are within the coffins, not the maze itself, the maze connects the loops and gives access to them. Aside from Michael cleaning stuff, we see no other prisoner outside of the coffins
In short, they are not different realms, just different regions.

Also, the Arrowverse hell was shown not just as a city but as fire (included in John's pocket-sized hellfires)
Constantine's pocket dimension is just that, a pocket dimension he created. It's not part of Hell, it's just something he put within Hell.
What you forgot is Lucifer's only name is not lucifer, and even in lucifer's series, they call him by different names other than Lucifer. And these names are directly mentioned in the Arrowverse.
Yes, that includes Satan and Beelzebub, who are identified as two different beings in Legends of Tomorrow season 4
Also, it is in the agreement between John and Lucifer. i.e. Lucifer was found in the Arrowverse even though he didn't appear on screen before Crisis.
Like I said, they are part of the same franchise obviously but the problem is the lack of clear statement about connections between several stuff. I'm on the side to believe there's just one Hell and it takes different appearences between worlds but we need confirmation to be sure (or at least details that suggest something)
 
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Problem is that the series never implies angels can do that as well. The restriction was strictly for demons, angels appear in their own form and we see this when they're in Hell or Heaven and still have the same appearence
I don't understand how this is a problem. if they were shown or implied that they couldn't then it would be a problem. This is not a problem as it is not shown or implied that they cannot.
Constantine's pocket dimension is just that, a pocket dimension he created. It's not part of Hell, it's just something he put within Hell.
John designed the pocket size as his own mansion. John didn't create the flames outside, those flames aren't part of John's pocket size, they're part of hell.
 
Like I said, they are part of the same franchise obviously but the problem is the lack of clear statement about connections between several stuff. I'm on the side to believe there's just one Hell and it takes different appearences between worlds but we need confirmation to be sure (or at least details that suggest something)
Since you are not totally against the OP and are willing to believe it, it is best to wait for the staff to give input.
 
I don't understand how this is a problem. if they were shown or implied that they couldn't then it would be a problem. This is not a problem as it is not shown or implied that they cannot.
This is a problem because it's an important element to decide what to do with the setting and the tier.
John designed the pocket size as his own mansion. John didn't create the flames outside, those flames aren't part of John's pocket size, they're part of hell.
Doesn't disapprove my point. Never said the flames themselves were part of the dimension
 
Since you are not totally against the OP and are willing to believe it, it is best to wait for the staff to give input.
This. We need more input from staff members anyway. I hope some will check the thread asap, even with the disagreement there's still many interesting additions that could be made
 
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