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(LR1M3) 8-B Shooters Tournament: Whisper the Wolf VS Izetta

This match reminded me with my match about Super Godzilla vs Tohru
I’ve seen it, and I guess this is what happens when you have an obscure character from an obscure verse be pit against a recognizable character and people vote the recognizable character over the obscure one over recognizing them more and making false assumptions.

With that, 2-5 more votes
 
I've experienced it a few times. It's understandable the more popular character/series will have more eyes on them, nothing to be done.
That's why, when it happens to me, I try what I can to provide all information and context I can... like here. I might sometimes come off as too persistent; apologies on that, but I don't have another solution for advocating less-known characters.

On that note, thanks to all those who come back!
 
I’ve seen it, and I guess this is what happens when you have an obscure character from an obscure verse be pit against a recognizable character and people vote the recognizable character over the obscure one over recognizing them more and making false assumptions.
At least this match is running smooth, mine was absolute disaster
 
First, thank you for answering. I really appreciate it
No problem, sorry for the late response again.
Handle all the wisps at once, probably not, I agree, but there's only half a dozen of them. Even if Izetta only manages to destroy two, that's 2 less wisps for Whisper to use, both for prism set-up and extra arsenal, making her shots less versatile and complex.
Speed is equalised, yes, but the argument of "can't handle everything" goes both ways. Whisper won't be able to handle all the attacks and weapons coming her way from Izetta, especially at the start.
Now, I'm not 100% certain on this, I'd have to consult the other IDW Sonic fans, but I always figured the Wisps durability scale to their energy output when fired from the Wispon. If that's the case, it's unlikely they'd take out one very easily if their durability scales to their output (Also giving them a massive Dura advantage over Izetta). Though I imagine the Wisps would be hard to hit to begin with given their small size and speed.
I'm aware of that. Whether she tosses them or has the wisps carry them, it's really easy to set up. And I won't try to argue that Izetta will likely get hit once by a ricohetin beam; I agree she most likely will.
And I will say that whatever damage Izetta takes from this attack, even if lessened thanks to the forcefield, will hurt a lot and possibly more than what she's faced before.
But did you take into consideration that it's possible she'd be hit several times by the same laser? Think about it, if the AP gap is strong enough for Whisper to likely pierce through Izetta, the beam would continue, and given it creates a large laser grid, she'd likely be repeatedly penetrated by the beam before the energy fully disperses. If she got hit numerous times by the laser grid surrounding her it would be very bad for her. She'd basically be trapped inside a "laser cage" for a few seconds.
However, in spite that, Izetta has fought while injured, and her combat skills, thinking skills and reaction times don't decrease. It'll likely need a tad more concentration, but considering how she can TK 40+ objects at once like it's nothing, the effects on Izetta's combat will be negligible, as long as she only receives 1 such full-front attack.
Can you give me the source of where she was injured so I can see if it was to such an extent and judge if her performance was actually the same for myself? Like, what episode did it occur in?
Considering they are fighting in an open area and Izetta will be flying for most of the fight, complex zigzagging of the lasers is unlikely for Whisper. The scene with Silver and the other guy looks to take place inside a room, which makes what you argue far easier and where the prisms were surrounding the two characters. However, in the current scenario, linear prism-to-prism beams in order is by far the most viable option, unless she can somehow throw the prisms hundreds of meters far, which she hasn't shown. The location of the fight and Izetta's flight make it to where Whisper can't surround Izetta with the prisms.
The scene with Silver and Zor did not take place inside a room. It was outdoors, and the two of them were flying in the middle of the sky when Whisper took the shot. In fact, I don't recall a time when she ever used the crystals indoors.

The thing is, the laser don't need to be linear if the Wisps are controlling the crystals, they can move around to bounce the laser through one another. Given the pattern, it's unlikely they stay situated to let the laser bounce, as there's no way the laser would've bounced as randomly as it did without them moving around. This goes into what I said earlier, that they'd move around to assure the laser does land. Basically playing "catch" with the laser wisp blast while trying to target Izetta with complex laser patterns.
Izetta will get hit by that first laser, I agree with that. But her reaction time to a laser coming from within her frontal line of sight, even if it ricochets, will be much better than if the laser ricocheted from prisms all around Izetta. Izetta will get hurt, but probably not as hard as she would have if she was in the scenario of the scene you shared.
What if the laser isn't in her frontal line of site though? Even assuming the crystals don't surround her, it can still go behind her frontal line of site assuming they're just flying straight up as Whisper tries to approach, and given all the bouncing, it's very likely it could come up from behind just as it's possible for it to come up from in front. Or any other angle for that matter.
And after that 1st attack, Izetta will know what the prisms do, and TK them far away. I highly doubt Whisper will be able to reach the prisms with her laser once that happens. Unless there's a showing of that? Izetta could also crush the prisms, that's an option.
I could also be wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure the Cyan Wisp produces those crystals. Correct me if I'm wrong Sonic fans, but I thought it functioned similarly to how the crystals work in the game, where if you use the Cyan Wisp, the crystals just spawn in. I mean, most of the time, I don't think we ever see her retrieve them, so I just assumed the Cyan Wisp spawned more when she needs them for a shot.
Izetta has the equally viable option to block/deflect Whisper's attempts to shoot at the TK'd prisms. Izetta's arsenal of weapons is large enough where she can multitask each to do something different. She uses her larger swords primarily for defense and attack deflection. Izetta's skill with her magic and her multitask TK makes it very possible to throw the prisms so far away that Whisper can't hope to reach them.
Whisper's has other elements to attack with, sure, but the laser was by far the biggest threat, and if Izetta defeats some Wisps, can they even be used as weapon energy still?
If she tries to deflect Whisper's lasers, whatever tried to stop the blast would be turned into swiss cheese. Remember, she has the AP advantage, and her laser is shown to easily penetrate essentially anything she ever shoots at. So if she tried to foolishly use a sword or something to deflect it, not only would the sword have a huge gap in it, but also Izetta. Her only chance would be to dodge it realistically.

This means if she makes the mistake of trying to deflect it, that's another lethal shot on her.
Whisper's has other elements to attack with, sure, but the laser was by far the biggest threat, and if Izetta defeats some Wisps, can they even be used as weapon energy still?
I couldn't tell you, I don't recall ever seeing a Wisp get hurt. I'm not sure if it's because they're intangible or something, or no one's ever tried (I'm pretty sure the Wisp can also fend for themselves, that could be part of why no one ever tries). But usually, as long as they can be put inside the Wispon, it still works.
What upsets me is that, after barely any discussion, everyone vote-rushed Whisper while I was asleep without waiting for counter-arguments on my part or trying to look deeper into Izetta's profile. On top of that, assumptions were made about Izetta that were false, there's no other way to say it; they made Izetta look like she can't do anything. I voiced my points afterwards once I saw this turn of events, within the grace period, but then nobody bothered to respond besides you. That's what really upsets me.
I can see if I can get the other Sonic fans to respond if that helps. It always is nice to have more input.

I forgot to mention, but while I agree Izetta's attacks won't deal too much damage individually because of the AP gap, they will still do something.

If I punch a boxer in the face, it won't do much, but he'll at least feel it. If 30 people try to punch the boxer at once, not even he will come out unscathed, even if only half the attacks land properly. And if those 30 people launch wave after wave of punches, it will quickly become too much for the boxer.
I'm pretty sure an average boxer isn't going to be 5x more durable than you. Or even the strongest boxer for that matter. While the strength they output may be 5x above yours (Unlikely given the average 'athlete' AP is only 2.8x higher than the average for average human level), but durability varies a lot less as far as I'm aware. I don't think durability can be trained as linearly as the force a fighter strikes with. The best equivalent I could think of is striking something akin to a superhuman with all you've got. Like Bruce Wayne.

Though yes, after many attacks they'd eventually succumb assuming every hit lands and they aren't trying to prevent said attacks or something.

A large bear would be stronger than a wolf, but if there are 30 wolves attacking that bear, it's not getting away unscathed.
Though the Wolves have Claws and Teeth that are sharp rather than conventional striking strength. It would probably be a better analogy if you said 30 humans or athletes vs a bear.
It's kind of similar here. A single attack from Izetta won't do much. An onslaught of attacks will. A repeated onslaught of attacks will do even more. Even more when those attacks include 200m-wide explosions coming from tiny homing bombs + beams + a bunch of stat-amped weapons.
It probably would've been better to bring this up in the beginning, but if all the Wisps are with her, she can immediately swap between modes without delay:

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This would allow her to swap between weapons necessary to counter some of the projectiles thrown. Given her AP advantage, she should be able to counteract/cancel out any attack she shoots at given her AP advantage.
Whisper does more damage to Izetta than Izetta does to Whisper. But Whisper's key method of reaching Izetta with her most effective attack can be disabled early on, and she has to deal with 30+ things repeatedly pummeling her on all sides. Any time Whisper uses to get rid of the surrounding weapons is time not spent shooting at Izetta, and any time spent setting up shots and shooting is time during which all the weapons will keep stabbing into Whisper. The reason being that Izetta can multitask attack, defense and disruption.
Didn't we discuss early on that their range is relative? If she moves out of range so Whisper can't hit her, chances are, she likely can't hit Whisper either.

If I recall correctly, it was assumed Whisper had a range comparable to a sniper, which was around 1 kilometer (Can be a bit more). Thus all her attacks should still be capable of reaching her. All of which are lethal to her. Imagine if Whisper fired the blade one at her, if it happens to hit, she's going to be chopped clean in half. The cyan beams obviously pierce her like butter, the explosions would cause a great amount of damage, etc.

The only one that has bad range is the energy hammer. Which is obviously suited to close-range combat.
Whisper does more damage to Izetta than Izetta does to Whisper. But Whisper's key method of reaching Izetta with her most effective attack can be disabled early on, and she has to deal with 30+ things repeatedly pummeling her on all sides. Any time Whisper uses to get rid of the surrounding weapons is time not spent shooting at Izetta, and any time spent setting up shots and shooting is time during which all the weapons will keep stabbing into Whisper. The reason being that Izetta can multitask attack, defense and disruption.
Or instead of shooting everything one at a time, she'd play it smart and use area of effect explosions to destroy most hazards in one direction almost immediately, or bounce her lasers around to shoot through multiple targets at once or create a laser gride that everything that passes through it is chopped up. It's not like she has a regular rifle where she needs to focus on only one attack at once. In fact, her weapons are great for focusing on multiple targets at once.
If you give Whisper of power strength of 100, and Izetta an attack strength of 20 (bc ~x5 gap), it's impressive of course. But Whisper is at 100*1 or 100*2, while Izetta is at least 20*30, with those 30 being renewable and even replaceable (through TK'ing and weaponizing the environment). The damage and pain will build up until it becomes severe. Even if you low-ball Izetta and say that only half hits with each wave, it's still 20*15 times however many waves.
If everything within a Kilometer becomes a potential weapon (Such as trees and wildlife), Whisper could start destroying it with explosive rounds, limiting their supply of "weaponry" within a Kilometer radius, and then stay in that Kilometer radius, where she'd then have to pursue Whisper. If I recall, Whisper can also launch herself into the sky with her shots and use one of her Wisps for limited flight, where from there, she can quickly switch between weapons and try to land some shots (Though the shots don't send her flying that far):

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(I can't find the scan at the moment, but one of her Wisps allow her to hover through the sky)
 
Now, I'm not 100% certain on this, I'd have to consult the other IDW Sonic fans, but I always figured the Wisps durability scale to their energy output when fired from the Wispon. If that's the case, it's unlikely they'd take out one very easily if their durability scales to their output (Also giving them a massive Dura advantage over Izetta). Though I imagine the Wisps would be hard to hit to begin with given their small size and speed.
I personally believe that, regardless of the stats, even with their smaller size, the argument goes back to Izetta having enough arsenal to overwhelm the Wisps. From the start, my argument wasn't that Izetta will defeat all the Wisps in one go, but instead that she'll likely to defeat, say, 2 of them in one round of attacks if she focuses on them. Since speed is equalized, it's as likely the Wisp to avoid as it is for Izetta to defeat a Wisp, especially with her large arsenal. The crystal explosions can still reach 200m diameter, so the Wisps getting caught in the blast is far from unlikely.

But did you take into consideration that it's possible she'd be hit several times by the same laser? Think about it, if the AP gap is strong enough for Whisper to likely pierce through Izetta, the beam would continue, and given it creates a large laser grid, she'd likely be repeatedly penetrated by the beam before the energy fully disperses. If she got hit numerous times by the laser grid surrounding her it would be very bad for her. She'd basically be trapped inside a "laser cage" for a few seconds
The large laser grid and the laser cage would only work if the prisms manage to surround Izetta, which I don't see how they can. Whisper can only toss the prisms at close range: if she does, the prisms get TK'ed. For the prisms to reach higher altitudes, the Wisps are needed, which goes back to the argument of Izetta vs the Wisps. At absolute worst, which is unlikely, Izetta's assault will at the very least disturb the Wisps, but that's only if Izetta splits her arsenal to chase after every Wisp, which she's smart enough not to; she'll focus on a few.
Even with that, however, my argument was that the first time Whisper tries to use the prism-laser, it will be at a point in the fight where Izetta will be at a low-enough altitude to where Whisper has no reason to use the Wisps to set the prisms and instead will just toss them. Tossing them is easier that ordering the Wisps to set them up, especially when she doesn't need to rely on the Wisps at such a low altitude for Izetta. However, even if Izetta is at a low altitude in the early fight, the tossed prisms are unlikely to be set behind Izetta or far to her sides, even less likely when Izetta is mid-flight and zooming around.
I'd agree on the "multiple lasers hit Izetta" if prisms were able to be set around Izetta, but considering the arena and what Izetta typically does, it's very unlikely.

Can you give me the source of where she was injured so I can see if it was to such an extent and judge if her performance was actually the same for myself? Like, what episode did it occur in?
I argued and confessed somewhere earlier in the thread that: if Izetta gets hit by one of those prism-lasers, it'd be the biggest injury Izetta would have received. Izetta has been injured before + at low stamina, primarily in episode 12, but it wasn't to the same level as what Whipser would likely inflict. Which is why I said that Izetta would lose some concentration and be in pain. My belief however is that even if that's the worst Izetta has been injured, she has fought and kept her combat prowess and reactions while injured+tired. Even if the laser hits, Izetta would have noticed the prisms beforehand, and quickly realized what they're meant for once Whisper shoots. And with Whisper shooting, and Izetta keeping those large weapons around for extra defense, lessening the damage is possible. Then, she can react by TK'ing the prisms.
The scene with Silver and Zor did not take place inside a room. It was outdoors, and the two of them were flying in the middle of the sky when Whisper took the shot. In fact, I don't recall a time when she ever used the crystals indoors.

The thing is, the laser don't need to be linear if the Wisps are controlling the crystals, they can move around to bounce the laser through one another. Given the pattern, it's unlikely they stay situated to let the laser bounce, as there's no way the laser would've bounced as randomly as it did without them moving around. This goes into what I said earlier, that they'd move around to assure the laser does land. Basically playing "catch" with the laser wisp blast while trying to target Izetta with complex laser patterns.
You said before that the lasers go in a straight line. The Silver-Zor looked to be indoors, but okay. Even outdoors, the prisms were set up in a way that they surrounded Silver and Zor. That's unlikely to happen with Izetta (my earlier points). Plus Izetta is more likely to have TK'ed the prisms away before the Wisps can handle them. Wips-controlled prisms would happen later in the fight based on the exchanged we've had, and "later" would too late as the prisms would likely be TK'ed away.
What if the laser isn't in her frontal line of site though? Even assuming the crystals don't surround her, it can still go behind her frontal line of site assuming they're just flying straight up as Whisper tries to approach, and given all the bouncing, it's very likely it could come up from behind just as it's possible for it to come up from in front. Or any other angle for that matter
That's only if some of the prisms land behind Izetta, which again is very doubtful it can happen. Because of that, the prisms will, most likely, be tossed at a range and position Izetta can clearly see.

If she tries to deflect Whisper's lasers, whatever tried to stop the blast would be turned into swiss cheese. Remember, she has the AP advantage, and her laser is shown to easily penetrate essentially anything she ever shoots at. So if she tried to foolishly use a sword or something to deflect it, not only would the sword have a huge gap in it, but also Izetta. Her only chance would be to dodge it realistically
I'm not arguing that the laser will penetrate the swords. I'm sure they will. But because of their stat-amped nature, a couple of them stacked up + the forcefield will still lessen the damage and impact of the laser. Will Izetta still be damaged if it hits? Absolutely. However, the damage will be reduced. If the price to pay is fewer swords for Izetta, that's not a big deal; she still has a lot of them, she'll be in a position she knows how Whisper's prisms work, and now she can plan much better around Whisper's attacks. That's assuming she doesn't try to dodge. Even if Izetta fails to fully dodge, if the laser hits a corner of the forcefield instead of the center, Izetta will be even less damaged.

The boxer and bear-wolf points were just analogies. Perhaps not the best I could think, but the point was to deliver an idea

This would allow her to swap between weapons necessary to counter some of the projectiles thrown. Given her AP advantage, she should be able to counteract/cancel out any attack she shoots at given her AP advantage.
I've been aware Whisper can quickly switch weapon-modes to fit her needs. It's just the ricochet-lasers are the biggest hurdle of Izetta, and if that's dealt with, then sure Whisper has more attacks at her disposal, but they're more manageable.
As for the AP advantage. Yes, Whisper will be able to counter and/or block some attacks. But my point this whole time was that she'll be unable to counter all of them, because there are so many attacks of different natures that will assault her from different directions at different timings.

Didn't we discuss early on that their range is relative? If she moves out of range so Whisper can't hit her, chances are, she likely can't hit Whisper either.

If I recall correctly, it was assumed Whisper had a range comparable to a sniper, which was around 1 kilometer (Can be a bit more). Thus all her attacks should still be capable of reaching her. All of which are lethal to her. Imagine if Whisper fired the blade one at her, if it happens to hit, she's going to be chopped clean in half. The cyan beams obviously pierce her like butter, the explosions would cause a great amount of damage, etc.
I'm unsure how that links, but okay. I'm aware the ranges of Izetta and Whisper are about the same. But the other attacks don't work with prisms, which was the primary threat to Izetta due to their ricochetting nature. Seeing where the other attacks are coming from will be an easier for Izetta. Her air mobility is to a degree it's fair to assume she'll dodge/fly past the oncoming attacks. If she really needs to, she can sacrifice weapons or crystals to lessen the power of the oncoming attacks.

In the scenario Izetta goes out of range, then yeah, neither reaches the other (though Izetta does have 200m diameter explosions which seem larger than Whisper's, based on the scans). In that scenario however, Izetta could easily resupply weapons from the environment.

Or instead of shooting everything one at a time, she'd play it smart and use area of effect explosions to destroy most hazards in one direction almost immediately, or bounce her lasers around to shoot through multiple targets at once or create a laser gride that everything that passes through it is chopped up. It's not like she has a regular rifle where she needs to focus on only one attack at once. In fact, her weapons are great for focusing on multiple targets at once
Only some of Whisper's weapons seem to multitarget, and if she decides to switch elements, no matter how quick she can do the switch, there's going to a small time window. Within it, some weapons/attacks can reach her.
But then, if she focuses on defending herself from Izetta's attacks, it goes back to my previous point:
"Any time Whisper uses to get rid of the surrounding weapons is time not spent shooting at Izetta, and any time spent setting up shots and shooting is time during which all the weapons will keep stabbing into Whisper".
If Whisper focuses the weapons, she can't focus Izetta, and vice-versa. The reason being, Izetta and her weapons will too far apart for multi-targeting both to work.
If everything within a Kilometer becomes a potential weapon (Such as trees and wildlife), Whisper could start destroying it with explosive rounds, limiting their supply of "weaponry" within a Kilometer radius, and then stay in that Kilometer radius, where she'd then have to pursue Whisper. If I recall, Whisper can also launch herself into the sky with her shots and use one of her Wisps for limited flight, where from there, she can quickly switch between weapons and try to land some shots
The arena where the fight takes place is massive. And initially, Whisper won't know Izetta can use the environment, nor would she have any reason to target the environment. And even if it comes to a point Whisper thinks of doing that, it goes back to the multi-tasking argument.
Whisper is very skilled and a great marskwolfwoman (lol), but in spite of her skill, Whisper has too many things to handle at once.
  • Izetta's weapons
  • Izetta's crystals + explosions
  • Izetta' beams
  • Managing the prisms
  • Defending against the weapons
  • Attacking Izetta directly
  • Directing the Wisps
  • Destroying the environment
  • Potentially switching to limited flight
  • Switching elements on her weapon
There's too much going on for Whisper to be able to do all these at a time.
On her end, Izetta is able to attack, defend, dodge, fly, TK 40+ objects, make homing attacks, rebuild her forcefield, and use the environment.

Furthermore, in the scenario Whisper chooses to hover with her Wisp, I genuinely think that's a bad idea. Through her entire series, Izetta has dominated sky battles and has gone through so many dogfights that one more won't be a problem. It's a tall order to defeat Izetta in a sky battle.
 
Was told to reevaluate my vote, but uh... doesn't seem like it is needed. Honestly, tho, I vote for Izetta (even if it doesn't mean much now)... now if only arguments for her victory - such as the one that @GoldenScorpions gave - were given earlier... curse my bad habit of going with the flow!
 
Seems like I’ll switch to speed it up.

With that, the REAL grace has started.
 
Might be a bit late to ask, but I want to clarify something, as I've seen different things in different threads. I'm aware combat speed is equalized, but does equalized speed mean attack speed (The speed of their weapons projectiles in this instance) get equalized, or does that remain the same?

If Attack Speed isn't equalized, it would be match-changing.
 
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Not sure if a thread can be "revived" after coming to a verdict (I've seen similar happen), so after some looking, it looks to a degree attack speed is equalized, however, attack speed remains the same degree faster than the combatant's actual speed when lowered. Her Wispon is 3.1x faster than her combat speed. Meaning in a speed equalized match, the Wispon shots would be 3.1x faster than Izetta. Thought I should mention this, as it would make it far more difficult for her to dodge Whisper's shot due to this. Heck, she'd have some difficulty doing so in a speed equalized match, albeit it's doable. Figured this should be considered. Doubt this will gain any more traction though (Especially since Izetta already advanced which I just noticed upon finishing this comment)
 
It's understadable you'd bring this up, so I looked at it myself:

Whisper's shots are x3.086 faster than her combat speed, rounded up to x3.1 (42785.7 m/s vs 13864.816 m/s)
Izetta's beams are x2.194 faster than her combat speed, rounded up to x2.2 (1926.45 m/s vs 878 m/s)

With speed equalized, both fighters have combat speeds of 878 m/s. With multipliers, Whisper's shots become 2721.8 m/s.
However, Izetta's 1926.45 m/s also applies to her reaction speed, as she reacted to such a beam in time.
As a result, Whisper's shots are x1.413 faster than Izetta's reactions.
But conversely, Whisper's reactions are the same as her combat speed, meaning her reaction speed in this fight is 878 m/s, which makes Izetta's beams x2.2 faster than Whisper's reactions.

Both girls have attack speeds that surpass the other's reactions, which makes the debate go back to all the previous non-speed points.
 
It's understadable you'd bring this up, so I looked at it myself:

Whisper's shots are x3.086 faster than her combat speed, rounded up to x3.1 (42785.7 m/s vs 13864.816 m/s)
Izetta's beams are x2.194 faster than her combat speed, rounded up to x2.2 (1926.45 m/s vs 878 m/s)

With speed equalized, both fighters have combat speeds of 878 m/s. With multipliers, Whisper's shots become 2721.8 m/s.
However, Izetta's 1926.45 m/s also applies to her reaction speed, as she reacted to such a beam in time.
As a result, Whisper's shots are x1.413 faster than Izetta's reactions.
But conversely, Whisper's reactions are the same as her combat speed, meaning her reaction speed in this fight is 878 m/s, which makes Izetta's beams x2.2 faster than Whisper's reactions.

Both girls have attack speeds that surpass the other's reactions, which makes the debate go back to all the previous non-speed points.
From what I picked up in other threads, only the attack speed is given the "multiplier" off of their base. Not the reaction speed which is just equalized.

Also, just out of curiosity, when you say she reacted, do you mean she evaded one of her attacks? If so, wouldn't that just qualify for combat speed?

If not, I guess the 1.4x difference is negligible.
 
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