Low 2-C Mario: In The Final

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Galaxy reactor is being empowered by 1 Grand Star, If I remember correctly. (We only see one star inside of the reactor). So yes, it would scale, since the bosses excluding Bowser have Grand Stars.

OR the amp doesn't scale to the reactor collapse.

 

[TheGatememer]

Actually, now that you mention it, the Galaxy Reactor no longer has the Grand Star when it collapses. So it seems that the Reactor itself is what caused the Low 2-C feat, and not the Grand Star.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Reactor was fueled by a Grand Star and had the Grand Star's energy.

 

[GoCommitDi]

Uhh I know this is a little heated right now, but if it makes any difference I agree with everything OP has proposed. Pretty clear cut and consistent.

 

[TheRexor28]

The Low 2-C feat is the collapse of the Grand Star Reactor which creates the Black Hole.

Bowser, the end boss, cannot touch the fire of the Reactor without burning his tail. He is weaker thant the Reactor.

The earlier bosses cannot be Low 2-C.

another time, an outlier. the only other option is that the other bosses aren't low 2-C (see below), or that bowser is weaker than the other bosses (highly unlikely)

them not being low 2-C is contradicted by them and the grand stars having no reason to hold back, also you need to prove that the grand stars don't give full (or near full) power when amping.

The earlier bosses can be Low 2-C, as they are empowered by the Grand Star. As ridiculous as it might sound, the earlier bosses should be stronger than Bowser, the main final boss since Bowser isn't empowered by a Grand Star in MG1.

bowser is shown to be superior to them, he also has "superior to his minions even when they're empowered by Power Stars" on his profile right now

Can you please stop saying "outlier" each time you don't want a feat to be accepted?

im saying it because it's an outlier. it's one time where one character is harmed by something weaker than himself for no reason other than PIS.

Actually, now that you mention it, the Galaxy Reactor no longer has the Grand Star when it collapses. So it seems that the Reactor itself is what caused the Low 2-C feat, and not the Grand Star.

bowser wouldn't have gotten the grand star if it didn't have the power to reset the universe, so it scales.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

Yeah like I still agree with this upgrade like if Sonic gets to be 2-C from one feat and not Mario who has 9 Universe Feats he can others did that’s unfair and he should have a good treatment

 

[TheGatememer]

On second thought, it seems that the Grand Star was the only thing keeping the reactor from going boom, so never mind.

 

[Hunterzillas]

I feel like the only people who should have a say in whether this is getting passed or not shouldn't be people who just FRA with what's been discussed though. I get this is all democratic, but it seems only a select few have been active in this debate, and as such they should be the deciding factor in it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah like I still agree with this upgrade like if Sonic gets to be 2-C from one feat and not Mario who has 9 Universe Feats he can others did that’s unfair and he should have a good treatment

i don't agree with sonic either man.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I feel like the only people who should have a say in whether this is getting passed or not shouldn't be people who just FRA with what's been discussed though. I get this is all democratic, but it seems only a select few have been active in this debate, and as such they should be the deciding factor in it.

This. Just throwing "I agree" isn't going to decide it.

 

[liluzivert]

i don't agree with sonic either man.

 

[TheRexor28]

here probably isn't the best place to complain about sonic

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"But Sonic has" is just going mask off and ill-advised.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

bowser is shown to be superior to them, he also has "superior to his minions even when they're empowered by Power Stars" on his profile right now

The problem with stuff like this is that it just points to the "Empowerment" not being that strong to begin with every time.

 

[TheGatememer]

bowser is shown to be superior to them, he also has "superior to his minions even when they're empowered by Power Stars" on his profile right now

Yea, thats with Power Stars. These are Grand Stars, which are much different.

 

[TheShieldToronto76]

here probably isn't the best place to complain about sonic

Funny thing is that there is a Sonic Solaris CRT competing with the Mario Trend now LMAO

 

[TheRexor28]

The problem with stuff like this is that it just points to the "Empowerment" not being that strong to begin with every time.

i don't see why we would scale down from someone who's superior rather than up from someone who's inferior, especially when the inferior one has the feat/amp.
also the empowerment not being that strong doesn't mean weaker than a fraction of a fraction (from bowser's tail burning)

Funny thing is that there is a Sonic Solaris CRT competing with the Mario Trend now LMAO

the ultimate fight: which thread will go nowhere quicker/slower/whatever's better

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

don't see why we would scale down from someone who's superior rather than up from someone who's inferior

Then you agree there's no scaling? Since Bowser who is stronger than the guys doesn't scale to the full power of a Grand Star.

 

[NotAMarioFan(lol)]

Goodnight everyone I hope you have great night

 

[TheRexor28]

Then you agree there's no scaling? Since Bowser who is stronger than the guys doesn't scale to the full power of a Grand Star.

no i'm saying scaling the bosses down from bowser when his only feats (aside from powerscaling) are 4-A would be illogical when the bosses have the low 2-C amp, and bowser doesn't. we should instead scale bowser above the bosses.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

 

[DatOneWeeb]

This is:

1. Completely irrelevant to my point, the power of the Crystal Stars is higher than the Shadow Queen's own, so she doesn't scale, you cannot use the Crystal Stars as argument for herself.

2. Not at all the argument you made, you changed your tune in respond to my criticism.

I can because she still survives attacks like Supernova, Mario strengthens himself via Power Lift, etc. She would have been fodder if she were that much weaker. Not even the strongest attack does enough damage.

- "Now comes from scaling. Obviously the Shadow Queen scales"

Okay. What's funnier actually is before people give their wishes, the Crystal Stars do not actually harm her.

Making an item with her magic isn't grounds for scaling, explained once and explained again. If she can do it by herself she wouldn't need the item to do it for her. Her feat comes from the power of the Crystal Stars and not her own base power.

Timeframe is 100% important because it determines whether or not she made the artifact instantaneously or with effort, crafting it.

Hitting and taking attacks from Mario is utterly irrelevant to this conversation on the Crystal Stars.

Matt. Mario uses the Crystal Stars to harm the Shadow Queen. Earth Tremor, Art Attack, Supernova. These are used with the Crystal Stars.

Not really, she can take its attacks.

No, I can argue for it and I will argue against it.

"The very fabric of reality" does not mean universal scale, this is something which you have invented without providing evidence. The expression "the very" is merely an intensifier meant to reinforce an idea. By stating that Olly is simply reinforcing how powerful he is now, not only able to fold structures but also space-time.

Mario only overpowers Olly with help from Bowser, other people, and the Magic Circle. Base Mario does not scale to his Reality-Folding ability anyway as it is not physical.

That sounds like headcanon my guy, this point you legitimately cannot refute other than switching up their meanings. It's ad nauseum. I am not about to argue against the definition.

Stop with this argument, Mario does not require help. Mario ends up overpowering King Olly on his own. Bowser nor the Magic Circle (which is still not an amp by the way throughout the entire game) were used in that scene. To me it seems like you can't accept Mario being stronger than Olly despite him showing it.

No, you need to prove a positive. "They scale to each other" is a positive statement that requires evidence.

Evidence you don't provide, mind you.

Making the claim there is varying magic they use is a negative statement. Stop trying to turn this around, burden of proof is on you. I don't have to prove their magic varies if they only have one type.

1. Antasma's own power is irrelevant to physical. Magic and Hax need evidence that they scale to Striking Strength and Durability, which, again, you haven't provided. Why should Antasma's ability to turn a Dream World into a Nightmare scale to his beak, his wings, his claws, whatever. Why is this Dream Manipulation Hax something that scales to offensive power.

2. Whether dreams are universes is unrelated. It is still a Dream Manipulation feat that I want evidence for physical scaling.

3. This is poisoning the well, vague, and means nothing.

Still ignoring that his entire amp comes from being in a dream world. If that amp literally gives him the Low 2-C power, it should be the same for anything else my guy. If anything, when Mario is inside the nightmare Antasma has power over, Mario can take his energy attacks. Seems fine by me. Antasma can also harm himself with his own energy ball and waves, so that too.

Bowser is confused and stumbling because Mario beat him up. Bowser was caught in the explosion and survived it with the rest of the universe, simple as is.

I am not ignoring any statement, rather I am taking the scene at face value for what it is. Bowser didn't tank any explosion, he merely got caught in the blast with the rest of the universe, which was restored back to normal.

He is dazed and confused whereas Mario and Peach aren't because of the shielding.

You basically ignore the:
- "Mario and Peach manage to escape Bowser's immediate fate, but the reactor's force is too strong."
- "Even Bowser is there, shaken by his narrow escape from a horrible fate."

It says it right there Matt. He is shaken (like the scene shows) by his narrow escape from a horrible fate (death). The horrible fate being the reactor. Put two to two together and actually look at it. Moot point otherwise.

No, his durability isn't comparable. He can barely touch the edge of the reactor's flames without burning himself, meaning that he does not scale to its full power, much less the Black Hole formed from its eventual collapse at the end of the game. Saying that he doesn't scale is absolutely valid.

You cannot harm Bowser unless he is already stunned from his burning red tail.

Barley would mean at a near death state, which nothing has displayed so. He is taking a dip inside it. Again, unless Bowser was going to actually die, he does not "barley survive" it.

"Guide supports it" is a meaningless argument. We didn't use any guidebook for Culex, only the original Japanese Text. You are pretending that Culex wasn't BTFOd in the original thread to pass it here.

Secondly, I am talking about the same thing. Only the original language is what's being allowed. And I'm not the only one deciding, the entire wiki decides that the Original Language of the text is the valid version. Trying to use anything else is dishonesty.

**** no, we still allowed his statement for the range on both things. Language is only an issue if there are contradictions, which you need to find yourself. We still use them, make a thread for it or shoo, because I am not going to continue arguing an already accepted standard.

You do not know what a negative is. You need to prove that they scale. Which is a positive. This is the issue.

By default we don't assume they scale unless you can prove why, which you haven't. You just are comitting the Burden of Proof fallacy here. Proving that the magic scales is entirely on you, and should you be incapable of this means they don't scale.

The Pixls and the Ancients together created worlds through unknown means with magic technology that has been lost. Them fighting in a war is entirely unrelated from this vague magical feat.

They scale to their creator's magic, easy as that. They fight, thus their magic was used.

I don't need to prove why their magic varies if it's still only one type of magic. Isn't like Hero who has varying levels of his spells.

Them fighting means the Pixls survived their magic attacks.

1. It being magic on its own means nothing. Magic doesn't necessarily always scale to itself unless you have evidence for it. Can you prove the positive?

2. Yes it is, it doesn't matter that the universe has time, creating something over time isn't grounds to scale over the whole thing.

1. Magic used to create and that same magic used to fight someone means it scales. I'm only scaling magic which is what the Pixls and Mimi survive.

2. You cannot create something infinite and something with time over time, it would still only result as Low 2-C. How am I going to create only part of infinite if I still have an infinite distance left? See the issue?

1. It's very likely that it did, they just created the dimensions so why not create a town between the dimensions?

2. Yes, what magic and how much time and how does this matter for any scaling whatsoever. These are questions you must answer.

Because Flipside itself is stated to be a dimension between dimensions.

Same answer. Shotgun argument.

She can't destroy the universe, I already categorically proven this with the actual game. Deal with it.

She was surrounding the world (The planet) in darkness in a sequence that is shown in game, leads to everyone declaring the world will be destroyed / will end and after you defeat her Peach thanks Mario for saving the world from terrible darkness.

The Shadow Queen and the Crystal Stars are not universal you cannot be this dishonest.

The Crystal Stars can, stated by the Nintendo Magazine with info from the companies and implied in SPM. Deal with it.

Implying that is her full potential, why does it stop her from destroying everything else? If Mario lost and she destroyed everything after that, seems logical to me. World still was gonna be destroyed. Also it's a good thing the Crystal Stars were stated to have this power, whew.

I don't care about any Luma Amp argument. Bowser and Mario both demonstrably don't scale to the Grand Star reactor. Why should it be used to scale to them when its mere flames are fatal to Bowser?

Fatal but Bowser never dies from it once. Sounds fatal to me.

This is a completely unrelated game and also an argument based on game mechanics and not story. You failed to address his argument.

No, the argument is that shielding something suddenly means you can't survive it. Nothing suggests they were going to die from it, it's literally Rosalina preventing harm and trying to teach Mario. You failed to address my argument.

These are all RPGs where Mario goes back to base in his next adventure.

Almost as if that's a game mechanic and ignores lore like Luigi saying they fight the Shroobs and plenty of other stuff meaning all of these events actually happened. Crazy how none of my arguments was Mario leveling up but simply he gets stronger.

Not canonically as she is not part of the story nor in the cutscenes.

Enough with this Watsonian argument. Rosalina can be harmed by Goombas in 3D World Gameplay, doesn't mean they scale either. The obvious answer is that it's meant to make the game fun and challenging.

Yes canonically, there is a post-game cutscene where they travel to space and she decides to join. Rosalina doesn't even have anything to suggest she's stronger. If you don't want to scale her off of enemies, why not bosses? In post-game there a boss rush level, which Rosalina can be in already.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Btw if we are only counting people who argued, then the opposing only has two people. The support has several.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Answering Blaze again.

First Shadow Queen:

I can because she still survives attacks like Supernova, Mario strengthens himself via Power Lift, etc. She would have been fodder if she were that much weaker. Not even the strongest attack does enough damage.

- "Now comes from scaling. Obviously the Shadow Queen scales"

Okay. What's funnier actually is before people give their wishes, the Crystal Stars do not actually harm her.

1. This is completely unrelated to my point. The Crystal Stars are more powerful than the Shadow Queen, and this is ultimately irrelevant since the Crystal Stars aren't Low 2-C either.

2. Yes because Mario is empowered by people's wishes not the Crystal Stars.

Matt. Mario uses the Crystal Stars to harm the Shadow Queen. Earth Tremor, Art Attack, Supernova. These are used with the Crystal Stars.

Not really, she can take its attacks.

This is just add-nauseum, this is irrelevant.

The Crystal Stars can, stated by the Nintendo Magazine with info from the companies and implied in SPM. Deal with it.

Implying that is her full potential, why does it stop her from destroying everything else? If Mario lost and she destroyed everything after that, seems logical to me. World still was gonna be destroyed. Also it's a good thing the Crystal Stars were stated to have this power, whew.

They cannot. You cannot use Nintendo Power for this, as it is unnaceptable. You are trying to pass a Game Review as a legitimate source of information, even the other supporters are against this.

She was going to cover the world in darkness and rule it, as stated by various characters throughout the game. World means planet in the context of TTYD as we see it first-hand. She is not Low 2-C.

Mario Galaxy stuff:

You basically ignore the:
- "Mario and Peach manage to escape Bowser's immediate fate, but the reactor's force is too strong."
- "Even Bowser is there, shaken by his narrow escape from a horrible fate."

It says it right there Matt. He is shaken (like the scene shows) by his narrow escape from a horrible fate (death). The horrible fate being the reactor. Put two to two together and actually look at it. Moot point otherwise.

Both escapes the "horrible fate" merely neither of them were caught in the destruction. They both survived somehow. Maybe Rosalina saved him too. He is shaken because he doesn't know where he is, we don't know. There's no confirmed feat and I"m not ignoring anything, as you just repeated the same quotes from before here.

Barley would mean at a near death state, which nothing has displayed so. He is taking a dip inside it. Again, unless Bowser was going to actually die, he does not "barley survive" it.

Bowser was actually going to die from the collapse of the universe, again the statement is clear, "a horrible fate". A mere dip into the flames of the reactor burns his tail, the collapse of the entire reactor destroying the universe is far too much for either Bowser, or Mario and PEach. None of the cast sans Rosalina with her magic scales to it.

Fatal but Bowser never dies from it once. Sounds fatal to me.

Because he:

1. Either got saved somehow.

2. Got reset to normal with the rest of the universe. I lean towards the later as it makes much more sense, as the whole point of the ending is that the universe is cyclical and all returns to as it once was.

No, the argument is that shielding something suddenly means you can't survive it. Nothing suggests they were going to die from it, it's literally Rosalina preventing harm and trying to teach Mario. You failed to address my argument.

The quote you use says they were going to die. You cannot make this up, the statement is super clear. They were indeed going to die.

Miscellanea:

Almost as if that's a game mechanic and ignores lore like Luigi saying they fight the Shroobs and plenty of other stuff meaning all of these events actually happened. Crazy how none of my arguments was Mario leveling up but simply he gets stronger.

You don't prove he preserves strength between games, only that he levels up within isolated RPG stories. This has no bearing on the plataformers anyway.

Yes canonically, there is a post-game cutscene where they travel to space and she decides to join. Rosalina doesn't even have anything to suggest she's stronger. If you don't want to scale her off of enemies, why not bosses? In post-game there a boss rush level, which Rosalina can be in already.

Because both are pure game mechanics. Unlocking her in post-game is just there for fun, she wasn't there fighting Bowser in the story mdoe.

That sounds like headcanon my guy, this point you legitimately cannot refute other than switching up their meanings. It's ad nauseum. I am not about to argue against the definition.

Stop with this argument, Mario does not require help. Mario ends up overpowering King Olly on his own. Bowser nor the Magic Circle (which is still not an amp by the way throughout the entire game) were used in that scene. To me it seems like you can't accept Mario being stronger than Olly despite him showing it.

This is not a headcanon. The meaning of "the very" is not what you insist it is. Mario needs help from multiple factors to fight King Olly meaning he doesn't scale. If Mario was stronger than Olly he wouldn't need help, how do you not understand it?

Stopping the argument against the definition implies concession that it is not a Universal feat, which you haven't provided any evidence for.

**** no, we still allowed his statement for the range on both things. Language is only an issue if there are contradictions, which you need to find yourself. We still use them, make a thread for it or shoo, because I am not going to continue arguing an already accepted standard.

You are making this up. We only allow the original language for Culex. Language is always the original and not the translation, and as shown the Culex script was completely different and yet you tried to argue for both.

It's not a currently accepted standard. You are trying to lie and pretend you're not doing something wrong when you go against how the wiki operates.

Magic stuff:

They scale to their creator's magic, easy as that. They fight, thus their magic was used.

I don't need to prove why their magic varies if it's still only one type of magic. Isn't like Hero who has varying levels of his spells.

Them fighting means the Pixls survived their magic attacks.

1. This is irrelevant. The Magic used for creation required both and we don't know what magic this is, how long it took, and why this would scale to other stuff.

2. You do, you need to prove a positive. We know nothing about their magic so you cannot make assumptions.

3. Prove the magic attacks scale to the magic used to create universes that required both of them.

Because Flipside itself is stated to be a dimension between dimensions.

Same answer. Shotgun argument.

1. This is a lie, Flipside is stated to be a town between dimensions, that it is a dimension in itself is your headcanon.

2. Not a shotgun argument if you refuse to address it. YOu cannot prove how this happened and why it would scale to anything so it shouldn't be used as an argument.

1. Magic used to create and that same magic used to fight someone means it scales. I'm only scaling magic which is what the Pixls and Mimi survive.

2. You cannot create something infinite and something with time over time, it would still only result as Low 2-C. How am I going to create only part of infinite if I still have an infinite distance left? See the issue?

1. No, I don't care what you think but this is not the logic accepted across the rest of the wiki. AS it stands you need evidence that different kinds of magic scale to each other. Being the same caster is irrelevant as different magic naturally achieves different results. Also we don't understand the process or timeframe.

2. You can, it happens all the time in fiction and it's completely unquantifiable. You can even destroy an infinite thing over time as many do and it's not accepted for scaling either. There is no issue here.

Still ignoring that his entire amp comes from being in a dream world. If that amp literally gives him the Low 2-C power, it should be the same for anything else my guy. If anything, when Mario is inside the nightmare Antasma has power over, Mario can take his energy attacks. Seems fine by me. Antasma can also harm himself with his own energy ball and waves, so that too.

Again, this is completely irrelevant to all I said. You haven't proven any Low 2-C offensive power, just universal hax for Antasma. Prove it scales to his attacks. Antasma harming himself with his energy attacks is irrelevant to his power over dreams. Both are completely different phenomena.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Btw if we are only counting people who argued, then the opposing only has two people. The support has several.

Not only is this a lie as the majority of staff and also plenty of users disagreed, but you should learn by now that this won't go through by the number of people agreeing. The arguments matter and outside of you and two - three other guys nobody in the Mario Support side argues, they just throw FRAs.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

So more then 2... which is the exact definition of several lol.

Definition of SEVERAL

separate or distinct from one another; individually owned or controlled : exclusive; of or relating separately to each individual involved… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

So more then 2... which is the exact definition of several lol.

Definition of SEVERAL

separate or distinct from one another; individually owned or controlled : exclusive; of or relating separately to each individual involved… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Saying that only 2 people are against this is a lie.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Saying that only 2 people are against this is a lie.

That's not what he said, he said two are openly opposing in terms of making arguments. Note the words he said prior "Btw if we are only counting people who argued".

 

[Hunterzillas]

Not only is this a lie as the majority of staff and also plenty of users disagreed, but you should learn by now that this won't go through by the number of people agreeing. The arguments matter and outside of you and two - three other guys nobody in the Mario Support side argues, they just throw FRAs.

We've got Matthew, Cal, Weeb, Rexor, Rtx, DDM, Ryu, Lunge_fish, Ari64, Adem, Gryro_nutz, Tllmberg, Armorchompy, I'mbluedabade, darkshadow.....and various other smaller posts (and maybe some larger ones, I'm getting tired. I didn't bother to put who was in support and who wasn't.)

Admittedly, some of these arguments were brief and one-note, compared to the extensiveness of others' posts, and their contributions were far back in the earlier stages of the arguments, but these are the people that had SOMETHING to say, miniscule or not.

 

[AshenCrow777]

Gonna say this now no "majority of staff" or "plenty of users" disagred.


A lot of people actually seemed to be neutral or at best a few agree to disagree.

But it is not as one sided as you make it out to be.


And like said above.


I feel like the only people who should have a say in whether this is getting passed or not shouldn't be people who just FRA with what's been discussed though. I get this is all democratic, but it seems only a select few have been active in this debate, and as such they should be the deciding factor in it.


Their disagreements (which extends to agreement) means absolutely nothing if they just plan to drop in. Say "I agree with X cuz they make the most sense." and then proceeds to disappear from the face of the earth when the debate is still on going. what they have disagreed with initial might literally have been debunk awhile ago when we are this deep into the debate.

(We are literally 7/8 pages in and a lot of stuff have been discussed)

Their opinions do not matter in the slightest (unless they wish to update their views on things) .

Spoiler: Break free from this circle.

This thread is a mess and I hope you are all done with it soon. because the circle jerking is making this longer then its needed to be, so far it feels like both sides have already stated their full arguments.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I’ve stated everything I needed to and will sleep on it. I don’t know what I’ll expect when I wake up.

 

[Starsprite53]

2. Yes because Mario is empowered by people's wishes not the Crystal Stars.

This actually..goes against you
Since the wishes and positive vibes make her not a stonewall.and like you said,mario was empowered by people's wishes to keep up with shadow queen

This is just add-nauseum, this is irrelevant.

Matt u said:Hitting and taking attacks from Mario is utterly irrelevant to this conversation on the Crystal Stars.
And then blaze replied that he used attacks from crystal stars to harm her(so it's relevant to crystal stars)
Then how it's irrelevant now? This is not a good refute if u ask me.

She was going to cover the world in darkness and rule it, as stated by various characters throughout the game. World means planet in the context of TTYD as we see it first-hand

Prove it,because World also means universe in it's sequel.

Both escapes the "horrible fate" merely neither of them were caught in the destruction. They both survived somehow. Maybe Rosalina saved him too

Yes Mario and peach survived by Rosalina's protection,Buuut
the guide being specific on who she saved,and it said that bowser survived by himself.So what you did say is pure headcanon

He is shaken because he doesn't know where he is, we don't know. There's no confirmed feat and I"m not ignoring anything, as you just repeated the same quotes from before here.

Matt matt matt,since when bowser doesn't know peach's garden?
His animation means he was damaged not confused (i doubt that you saw the cutscene),headcanon once again.

Bowser was actually going to die from the collapse of the universe, again the statement is clear, "a horrible fate". A mere dip into the flames of the reactor burns his tail, the collapse of the entire reactor destroying the universe is far too much for either Bowser, or Mario and PEach. None of the cast sans Rosalina with her magic scales to it.

Ok but bowser survived it so he scales i don't need to repeat myself,let's move on

1. Either got saved somehow.

2. Got reset to normal with the rest of the universe. I lean towards the later as it makes much more sense, as the whole point of the ending is that the universe is cyclical and all returns to as it once was.

The same argument again,nothing new really,if bowser got reset to normal,he shouldn't be damaged.like you said "Normal"

You don't prove he preserves strength between games, only that he levels up within isolated RPG stories. This has no bearing on the platformers anyway.

He did prove also the levels up means he gotten stronger smh,in fact in Superstar saga,Fawful clapped bowser but then Luigi clapped Fawful even tho at the start of game they were equal.
Platformers wise,Mario always puts a good fight with base Bowser,but then he defeated amped forms of him (grand star,Jumbo star)

Because both are pure game mechanics. Unlocking her in post-game is just there for fun, she wasn't there fighting Bowser in the story mdoe.

Didn't know a cutscene is a PURE game mechanics,espacially that you need to free the fairies to unlock rosalina (finishing the game) i didn't know that you consider post-game events as non-canon

This is not a headcanon. The meaning of "the very" is not what you insist it is. Mario needs help from multiple factors to fight King Olly meaning he doesn't scale. If Mario was stronger than Olly he wouldn't need help, how do you not understand it?

Literally ignores that mario fought phase 3 king olly on his own,able to tank his attacks,and hits him,a help doesn't mean he doesn't scale.

Stopping the argument against the definition implies concession that it is not a Universal feat, which you haven't provided any evidence for.

We literally showed you that he is folding the very fabric of reality.
Idk how this isn't universal+,it seems blatant to me and many others

 

[Antvasima]

Not to be rude but it is clear that these Low 2-C Mario threads are throwing anything at the wall to see what sticks. Any instance where Mario is 6 degrees of separation from something that might be interpreted as a cosmic feat, there are attempts to scale him disregarding all context or common sense. I mean one of the arguments used here was seriously "A nameless, off screen group of people that died hundreds of years before Mario was born collectively used unspecified technology that they eventually lost to do a feat that's arguably Tier 2." Not to mention that things like game reviews are being cited as sources. Or how pieces of context such as Mario being amped in Origami King are getting left out.

Also a character should not be scaled to the entirety of an explosion unless they were at the epicenter. Surface area is absolutely a factor because the full power of an explosion is not purely concentrated into one area that's decillions of times smaller than said explosion. That's now how explosions work. And in regards to Super Mario Galaxy, Mario and Peach were shielded by Rosalina and Bowser survived (as did literally every other creature in existence) due to the universe getting reset. That is not a feat for him anymore than Vision being brought back to life by the Time Stone is. As mentioned before, Bowser cannot even touch the energy used to power the generator without seriously hurting himself. So his physical body clearly does not scale to the entirety of the generator's energy, nor to the universal destruction the generator's collapse causes. This trend of attempting to scale people to the destruction that a weapon they happened to be in possession of caused needs to stop.

As such I cannot agree with these feats.

I agree with Ryukama.

 

[Antvasima]

No. We are not scaling anyone into Low 2-C. Honestly, scaling anybody to low 2-C is not only off putting but pretty much goes against the consistency and coherence to begin with. Not to mention it also means scaling everyone else and I speak for everyone when I say low 2-C Toad is ridiculous. I really don't know why we keep getting this repeated vouch topic.

I agree with this as well.

 

[Starsprite53]

Not to be rude Antvasima,but I fail to see how "low 2-C toad sounds ridiculous" is a refute

 

[Antvasima]

First of all, I am starting to see points in the painting world examples. All of them are definitely alternate world/dimensions and are clearly bodies of space. And I'm also glad to see some legit Japanese sources. While having starry skies or suns aren't enough to prove they're universes, and the dimensions being described as "Worldwide" seem rather hyperbolic. And using a dictionary definition doesn't really help much, it is clear that they all take place with their different flows of time. The fact that Mushroom Kingdom was clearly daytime throughout the entire game, while other dimensions do have day and night cycles indicate that. Although, it might be seen as just different planets having their own day and night cycles. And there are a multitude of "Infinite sized" statements. Those do indicate universal shenanigans, but I don't really like taking "Bottomless pit" statements literally. I'm fine with the sand one though. Also, we don't quite know how many power stars were used to create each dimension, but they were clearly shown. And starry skies make them 4-A sized at bare minimum. But here are some drawn conclusions for this.

Also, encompassing "All Reality" doesn't mean he creates or destroys the Universe containing the Mushroom Kingdom. It means he can conquer it over time by recruiting forces from the painting realms. But he himself doesn't appear Universal physically just from that statement alone.

1. Option 1 would be remove them as examples of 4-A feats for individual Power Stars. But perhaps Power Stars have Low 2-C feats in large quantities. I'm super skeptical about dividing them to individual power stars though and thing those power stars should use their own individual feats. Individual power stars scale from Mario regardless that they're designed to transform otherwise fodder enemies into boss fights
2. Keep them as 4-A individually and pass the universal stuff as hyperboles.

For the Paper Mario TTYD feat, I agree that that is not Universal. The Universe statement appears exclusive to a Nintendo Power Review which is an American company who's job is to tell you how good the game is and whether or not you should get it. Furthermore, world can mean universe, but it's more default to assume it means planet Earth. Also there really isn't much reason to do so. And the X-Nauts having a moon based also doesn't mean much to say world is larger than planet sized. We also don't see the moon covered in a cloud of darkness.

• Basically, this is only a planet level feat, not a universal feat. Please excuse it.

Wario World is clearly Universal. It's an official Nintendo of Europe statement and Japanese texts apparently consider that an accurate translation based on what I heard. But it's overall better to find Japanese texts and human translators.

• This one is a solid Low 2-C feat via a parallel universe statement, but wouldn't hurt to look into Japanese scans.

The Super Mario Galaxy Grand Stars clearly have 2 Low 2-C feats based on both endings. But let me go over each and every one of the 12 boss fights.

1. In Super Mario Galaxy 1; Megalegs is amped by a Grand Star. Mario defeats him by making use of Bullet Bills to break the glass. Mario would not scale and this is not an example feat.
2. Bowser's Grand Star is in the Planet Reactor. It is super hot Magma that should logically be a big Illions of degrees Celcius via Universe levels of thermal energy. But Bowser getting hurt by it and running around. It's usually considered that "Getting hurt really bad but still surviving" are iffy examples of hiding outliers. But Bowser doesn't appear physically Low 2-C here.
3. Grand Star is in the Doom Ship. Mario destroys it by physically whacking coconuts, but I'm not sure if Grand Star amps durability of the outer wood. So I'm skeptical about this example
4. Same as the second, but for Antimatter Reactor not Planet Reactor
5. King Kaliante is physically amped by Grand Star, so he would be Low 2-C by nature.
6. Bowser has the Grand Star in the Galaxy Reactor. It doesn't scale to physical stats from that, and it's the same case as 2 and 4. But it also explodes and resets the universe. It's not really implied Bowser tanks it, more like that he dies but then he gets revived when time resets.
7. Gobblegut is physically amped by Grand Star similar to King Kaliante, would be Low 2-C physically in nature via that.
8. Bowser is amped, he'd be physically Universal
9. Iffy about MegaHammer via similar reasons to Mega Legs and Doom Ship
10. Bowser again is amped physically
11. Boomsday is iffy for similar reasons as the other mechanical examples
12. Bowser is physically amped, and the defeat causes a super massive black hole covering all space and time. So this is physically Universal. Also Mario punches stuff into him, so we give Mario the credit and not some random rocks.
13. That's 5 Low 2-C physical feats. But the iffy part is why Bowser would even use Grand Stars. But Mario fights Base Bowser 3 times in galaxy one despite having one physically amped Grand Star. So that maybe be excausable, but still staying neutral.

Super Paper Mario feats are clearly Universal. Between Count Bleck tanking his own Universe, Dimentio possibly surviving. And Mario's party surviving the destruction of World 6. They are Universes since World 4 is a Universe and they're shown to be different times and spaces. So it's Low 2-C. ISL would be applicable for 3-A, but you cannot divide infinity by a finite number. So this is clearly Low 2-C durability. Although, I'm super iffy about scaling the Ancients creations to the universal creations. But Dimentio is a Ancient Tribe member, but he often toys with the party. So iffy about him scaling to anyone.

• Solid Low 2-C feats here, but then there are some that are iffy.

I disagree with Dream Team examples a great deal. I feel like this is just hiding an outlier. Antasma is 2-B so it's a 2-B feat outright; disguising it as a Low 2-C low end feat just to scale to Mario is just hiding an outlier.

• This is a 2-B feat, plain and simple. But it's also an outlier.

King Olly does enfold the very Fabric of Reality; which seems like a cut and dry universal feat. And we know he's effecting more than just the Mushroom Kingdom; he's effecting the stars above as well. And literally "All reality" implies the Universe they're in. This is another Universal feat. And it does scale to physical stats since Olly is physically folding the very fabric of the Universe like a sheet of origami paper.

• This is a Low 2-C feat

So in conclusion, we have 7 Low 2-C feats here that would inherently scale to Mario. I'm going to be neutral on the Outlier debate. Also, Super Dimentio is clearly 2-B; he very much eats the entire multiverse. And his base form is Low 2-C because it's implied he was with Count Bleck when Bleck destroyed his first Universe and tanked it.

Hmm. Medeus makes a good evaluation here. I am not so sure anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

The game wouldn't be fun if Rosalina just obliterated everything on screen in an instant or took no damage. Gameplay mechanics clearly nerfed her for the sake of making her a fun playable character. It's no different than goombas and falling rocks being able to hurt her in gameplay. It is not once stated or shown that Mario did some shonen anime training that finally made him as strong as Rosalina. Rosalina isn't even in the main "story" so she doesn't interract with the others in any cutscenes. The "scaling" is based purely on gameplay.

And once again it's not even certain if Rosalina physically withstood the explosion in the first place. This scaling requires the assumption that two feats happened off screen without anyone ever mentioning it.

So even if someone wants to claim that surface area isn't a factor in universal explosions, it doesn't matter. The universal explosion does not scale to Mario. It possibly scales to someone who Mario does not scale to. This is what I mean from "6 degrees of separation from a cosmic feat."

Thank you for helping out Ryukama.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyways once again, Rosalina is a post-game unlockable. She is not in any of the story cutscenes. If there was, say, a cutscene where Mario and Rosalina fought on par then sure that might give some credence to Mario now being canonically as strong as Rosalina. But the only instances of them actually being "comparable" is within the same gameplay where she can also be hurt by goombas or falling rocks. This is why we don't use gameplay mechanics to determine scaling.

And again if it's okay to make unfounded speculations like "Mario did DBZ training off screen, got orders of magnitude stronger and it was just never mentioned" then we can also say "Rosalina used her shields to withstand the blast off screen and it was just never mentioned." Why can one off screen, unmentioned thing be asserted but not the other?

Additionally, so are we supposed to make "Pre-3D World Training" and "Post-3D World Training" keys since Mario apparently got massively stronger in between those timeframes due to training?

This seems to be a good point.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have only had the time to read part of the staff posts here, and Medeus, Matthew, and Ryukama all seemed to make good points, but Dino Ranger Black is our most knowledgeable staff member regarding Mario. Would somebody neutral be willing to summarise all of the important arguments so far for him, so he can more easily evaluate them? Medeus perhaps?

Also, the incendiary snark and hostility definitely have to stop. This is just a discussion about entertainment, not a politically devastating development or somesuch.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

Not to be rude Antvasima,but I fail to see how "low 2-C toad sounds ridiculous" is a refute

I agree. The idea of weird characters scaling being used as a facet to discredit feats is laughable. You could downgrade virtually any verse with this kind of logic.