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Low-1C doom slayer isn't joke!

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DarkDragonMedeus said:
Antvasima has stated multiple times he isn't particularly the best person to ask when it comes to debating tiers, more so he manages, indexes and views threads when he has time. And he's often multitasking and stuff like that, so it can feel overworked at often times. People like Ultima Reality and DontTalkDT are experts on tier 1 stuff, but they're often busy and overworked too.

But yeah, I'm not really buying anything Tier 1 here tbh. Keiran basically covered most if not all the details
Click to expand...
The Father and the entire contents of DLC 1 have clearly stated it's not tech, otherwise he won't need to remove the demons from Urdak and seal it back instead of just cutting off the power the only tech there helps the demons inside(and anyone else even Khan and the Maykrs) can access to the other universes or anything outside Urdak are the Portal Gates like Khan Maykr did with the Fortess of Doom, even though he has physical form (literally Urdak and he It serves as the power and governs it all)
Kieran has never dealt with these points, so don't cling to it as absolute truth, please!
 
It's because they show superiority over time and space, where people of lower dimensions can't comprehend them, and they are stated to be absolutely transcended over regular beings and their plane of existence?
 
Archie Sonic actually had a recent revision and some statements actually were considered more legit. As for Yggdrasil, I agree the Low 1-C rating is super iffy.
 
Imo containing the lower dimension's universes as much smaller finite objects (planets) is not low 1-C but if this higher dimension is inaccessible for 4-D beings but can be accessed by transcendent beings,it's low 1-C
 
This is just the beginning for bigger things, once it's accepted I'll do my best as soon as possible to update the character profiles.
They are literally too old and sketchy (Like Hayden without his Samur key), there is also a misconception in before Thread that VEGA / The Father is a Primeval, which is completely wrong due to Hugo confirming multiple times only two Primevals appearances are Doom slayer and Davoth, they and all other Primvals are made up of a much higher force / entity that serves as Doom verse's True GOD, Davoth whether The Creator and First Being , but he's nothing more than Lucifer (he was also the first Primeval at the same time)
Also, Hugo has stated that he and the writers have a Metaverse map in his office, all of this will appear in what he calls the 100-page Doom Bible,...
 
Rabbit2002 said:
Also, Hugo has stated that he and the writers have a Metaverse map in his office, all of this will appear in what he calls the 100-page Doom Bible,...
Click to expand...
This sounds interesting, if we get an actual mapped out cosmology it will make scaling so much easier.

Until then though, I do not believe this will be accepted. But I do agree that a decent number of profiles are outdated, such as the Hayden one.
 
Also, Doom's 2A statement comes from infinite possible timelines stuff of Maykrs, which can be MUCH HIGHER or not if we take a closer look at the words it uses (Fractal PatternS, every predictive variable of POSSIBLE TIMELINE = EVERY potentially)
There is also a quantum shit of the Multiverse, Physicial and spirit realms, the relationship between the physical, biological, inorganic being (Life forms to ALL CREATION) and ESSENCE of very being (Soul, Data, Mind, consciousness, memory, will, mind, wisdom, life-force, ...) and lots of crazy stuff 🤪🤪
 
The Maykr statement is nothing higher than 2-A, there may be an argument to assume it higher than baseline but it does not exit the tier.
 
KieranH10 said:
This sounds interesting, if we get an actual mapped out cosmology it will make scaling so much easier.

Until then though, I do not believe this will be accepted. But I do agree that a decent number of profiles are outdated, such as the Hayden one.
Click to expand...

KieranH10 said:
The Maykr statement is nothing higher than 2-A, there may be an argument to assume it higher than baseline but it does not exit the tier.
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Yes but using "fractal patterns" and "every potentially" equivalent to "every predictive variable of possible future timeline" is also a good argument for higher levels of baseline. It is not implied that there is only one timeline tree with infinitely timelines branched (infinite possibilities) and branching continuously extending exponentially to infinity ( endless varibility), this is just a Fractal Pattern (like a tree) where instead of "fractal patterns" implications there will be more than one tree, in addition these "trees" are the timelines mentioned earlier in the form of "predictive variables of possible future timeline" has such an infinite number of trees residing in a possible future timeline (one possiblity), not only so equating "every potentially" means there will be an infinite loop of layers instead of just one and two layers above Baseline

Fractal Foundation Online Course - Chapter 1 - FRACTALS IN NATURE

fractalfoundation.org fractalfoundation.org
 
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KieranH10 said:
The Maykr statement is nothing higher than 2-A, there may be an argument to assume it higher than baseline but it does not exit the tier.
Click to expand...
Although I feel a bit off the main topic (but related to Urdak in terms of Cosmology), these timelines can be Hypertimeline / Higher dimensions of time because Khan Maykr has to depend on ability to see through them. to discover Destroyer's true identity and when and where he will appear. If it were only one-dimensional timeline, it would be completely meaningless because Khan and the Night Sentinels ruled all the universes across space and time, including the past and the future of these universes. In other words, this timeline is actually the higher temporal dimension, where all moments and spacetime of all universes (heavily implied Urdak) exist at the same time of those timelines as Khan looking at the "future" of those timelines helps her to know their destiny and their change. It is even clearer that when Doomguy gets lost in Argent d "nur is actually a time travel back to the past. Hell is also out of all these timelines since Khan was initially unaware of its existence and according to Hugo, linking to all of them as "First world" implies some kind of singularity of causality
 
Rabbit2002 said:
Yes but using "fractal patterns" and "every potentially" equivalent to "every predictive variable of possible future timeline" is also a good argument for higher levels of baseline. It is not implied that there is only one timeline tree with infinitely timelines branched (infinite possibilities) and branching continuously extending exponentially to infinity ( endless varibility), this is just a Fractal Pattern (like a tree) where instead of "fractal patterns" implications there will be more than one tree, in addition these "trees" are the timelines mentioned earlier in the form of "predictive variables of possible future timeline" has such an infinite number of trees residing in a possible future timeline (one possiblity), not only so equating "every potentially" means there will be an infinite loop of layers instead of just one and two layers above Baseline
Click to expand...
Those statements don't imply anything further into 2-A, ever expanding infinite timelines is baseline 2-A iirc, because Infinity + 1 = Infinity.
 
Rabbit2002 said:
Yes but using "fractal patterns" and "every potentially" equivalent to "every predictive variable of possible future timeline" is also a good argument for higher levels of baseline. It is not implied that there is only one timeline tree with infinitely timelines branched (infinite possibilities) and branching continuously extending exponentially to infinity ( endless varibility), this is just a Fractal Pattern (like a tree) where instead of "fractal patterns" implications there will be more than one tree, in addition these "trees" are the timelines mentioned earlier in the form of "predictive variables of possible future timeline" has such an infinite number of trees residing in a possible future timeline (one possiblity), not only so equating "every potentially" means there will be an infinite loop of layers instead of just one and two layers above Baseline
Click to expand...
thats quantum infinity my guy it got marvel to what basically amount to as some of the most busted 2-A in the wiki
 
it's also knnown as transinfinite multiverse on the wiki
aka every possibility creates a fracture in the timeline creating an infinite amount of new universes and those universes create infinite amount of universes ect.
basically its being multiversial+ times infinity times infinity times infinity times infinity
still not higher dimensional though
 
Currently he doesn't talk about higher dimension,he is trying to argue that 2-A in doom is higher than baseline although it's still baseline
 
KieranH10 said:
Those statements don't imply anything further into 2-A, ever expanding infinite timelines is baseline 2-A iirc, because Infinity + 1 = Infinity.
Click to expand...
Yes, I mean the Range is a lot higher than the 2A baseline instead of the AP. If it was the AP then it had to add the contexts of Codex sentinels and as such it would be At least Low-1C possibility High-1B


 
KieranH10 said:
Those statements don't imply anything further into 2-A, ever expanding infinite timelines is baseline 2-A iirc, because Infinity + 1 = Infinity.
Click to expand...
Anyway, is the Low-1C urdak okay or do you have anything left to give your argument?
 
KieranH10 said:
I disagree with the Low 1-C Urdak personally.
Click to expand...
I don't think the way this wiki works is based on personal opinion without supporting evidence and argument. Most of the things I give for Low-1C content are literally blatant quotes from the most official sources like Game, Story development and HUGO himself. Of course if this is wrong, you can prove it if you want, or maybe I misinterpret Low-1C (kinda not too familiar with this with the exception of Uncountable infinite universes and metafiction layers) due to the weirdness of it
 
I have given my own counter arguments to all of your points. For reasons I have mentioned before I disagree with this upgrade.
 
summary for why Urdak Low-1C
1/
- It is claimed to be the Higher dimension, obviously not due to advanced technology, simply because of entities that have absolute control, knowledge and understanding about whole of Urdak's technology like The Father has no choice but to banish demons to seal Urdak, which is the only way to make them inaccessible to other universes, harm all existence
2/
- For 1/, it serves as the interdimensional highway that allows demons to access and dominate all of the Lower dimension universes because It contains lower dimensional universes like the literal planets, not that they are compressed like Pocket universes in the "larger than outside" because Slayer and anyone else need a Portal Gate to go to other universes and leave Urdak
3/
- The demon's ruler over universes was so great that the Doom slayer could not stop it to save this world (the eternal doom's earth and its universe), but had to depend on The Father in the only way (before replacing it with the killing of the Dark Lord) - who literally defeated countless conquests of the Demons on the earth, revered as a legend feared by all demons and stronger than Davoth himself - who stronger than all demons to ruler all and a God tier of verse
4/
- It is completely inaccessible by people who can easily travel and full access to all spacetime of all the lower-dimensional universes and even those transcendent and separate from space and time like Hell to its deepest point Immora, unreachable by anyone (even The Father) without the Gate of divium, The Night sentinels don't even need it to reach Immora.
5/
-Hell cannot devour more than one universe at same time or abandon it to go to another universe. It is the entire content of the Doom eternal that Khan tries to promote the consumption of the earth, otherwise her entire race and Urdak will die without the Argent energy extracted from Mortal races's souls of universes devoured by Hell. But with Urdak, Hell would easy expand its ruler and consumption to All of existence
I will ignore something like 6D or Khan's inviolability due to being irrelevant and ambiguous
 
Rabbit2002 said:
summary for why Urdak Low-1C
1/
- It is claimed to be the Higher dimension, obviously not due to advanced technology, simply because of entities that have absolute control, knowledge and understanding about whole of Urdak's technology like The Father has no choice but to banish demons to seal Urdak, which is the only way to make them inaccessible to other universes, harm all existence
2/
- For 1/, it serves as the interdimensional highway that allows demons to access and dominate all of the Lower dimension universes because It contains lower dimensional universes like the literal planets, not that they are compressed like Pocket universes in the "larger than outside" because Slayer and anyone else need a Portal Gate to go to other universes and leave Urdak
3/
- The demon's ruler over universes was so great that the Doom slayer could not stop it to save this world (the eternal doom's earth and its universe), but had to depend on The Father in the only way (before replacing it with the killing of the Dark Lord) - who literally defeated countless conquests of the Demons on the earth, revered as a legend feared by all demons and stronger than Davoth himself - who stronger than all demons to ruler all and a God tier of verse
4/
- It is completely inaccessible by people who can easily travel and full access to all spacetime of all the lower-dimensional universes and even those transcendent and separate from space and time like Hell to its deepest point Immora, unreachable by anyone (even The Father) without the Gate of divium, The Night sentinels don't even need it to reach Immora.
5/
-Hell cannot devour more than one universe at same time or abandon it to go to another universe. It is the entire content of the Doom eternal that Khan tries to promote the consumption of the earth, otherwise her entire race and Urdak will die without the Argent energy extracted from Mortal races's souls of universes devoured by Hell. But with Urdak, Hell would easy expand its ruler and consumption to All of existence
I will ignore something like 6D or Khan's inviolability due to being irrelevant and ambiguous
Click to expand...
1. That not evidence for Low 1-C, nothing in your argument prove to be it is actually transcended over 4-D structure to be 5-D, it is just you interpreted it as higher dimension as in higher than 4-D structure. The whole later line of "The Father has no choice but to banish demons to seal Urdak, which is the only way to make them inaccessible to other universes, harm all existence" doesn't prove anything.
2. No, inaccessible is not = higher dimensional/transcended over existence, interdimensional high-way is just connecting thing, doesn't mean transcend.
3. Again, this can't prove Low 1-C, the whole line is just: Demon is strong, nothing else note worthy
4. Again, inaccessible is not = higher dimensional/transcended over existence
5. Again, this can't prove Low 1-C, the whole line is worthless to prove Low 1-C structure

I don't know what the hell happen to you, to be brutal you trying to pull thing out of context and try to force your interpretation of the context on other, nothing in your argument prove evidence for a Low 1-C structure
 
Essentially: Flowery language, Misinterpreting Quotes, and missing Context for a few points.

The Maykrs are an incredibly advanced, egotistical race who see themselves above all other life, so any "higher life" or "higher dimension" statements likely boil down to nothing more than ego, and technological advancement in comparison to other realms.

Supposedly "Shattered fragments of Universes" being present in Urdak also means nothing for higher dimensionality, since we still see them in-game, meaning they're not higher dimensional. Them being contained by Urdak =/= Urdak being higher dimensional.

Urdak being an interdimensional highway to all realms doesn't support higher dimensionality, and actually further supports the claims simply meaning that they're more technologically advanced, since their tech is responsible for this "highway"

The Sentinels not being able to reach them despite founding the entire multiverse simply implies that Urdak is similar in nature to Hell, or that there was still space that the Sentinels had not found. Simply being outside of the regular Multiverse, or not being reachable by the Sentinels. This doesn't indicate that they're a higher dimension whatsoever though.

There is supposedly an official map of the Doom Cosmology that is being released at some point which sounds interesting and incredibly useful for stuff like this, but this hasn't been released as of yet, so there's not much more to that.
 
Antvasima said:
Kieran makes sense to me.

We should probably close this thread then.
Click to expand...
Am I allowed to comment in response to his argument and all counter points? To be honest, I find this just too bad to consider an argument (whether expert or not) completely one-way true without any scans or sources of support and most of them. are things thrown out of nothing. Not only that, he claimed to have answered everything for me with his arguments against himself and worst of all, he didn't even mention and deliberately ignored The Father, the reason I cite from Extremely blatant things in the game to the official guidebook / lore book to explain it is not advanced tech
 
KieranH10 said:
I don't need new counter evidence if the claims aren't correct to begin with, the evidence for my counter points are the evidence you have provided yourself.

If i've missed something please mention it here, I was under the impression I have covered it all. I am happy to keep discussing.
Click to expand...
So why must The Father have to BANISH the demons from Urdak and reseal Urdak so that the demons cannot return to Urdak instead of simply not creating a portal or cutting off its energy - the only technology that helps the Maykrs and anyone else left Urdak lol. Even in his original and current state, he was the only one with control over portal creation and Urdak's ability to understand and access the system was absolute but required the physical form of himself - merge with Urdak itself to BANISH demons?
And The Father in physical form ("sitting on the throne of Urdak") is the Singularity which is also the mind and soul of The Father and the dead Maykrs will return here, merging with him. Singularity acts as the power and governing Urdak, his control over the technology is certainly higher than Khan - who can turn off the power of Maykr technology and override VEGA's dominance - note that at times he doesn't have the physical body and sense of self as The Father (it has been accepted on wiki as hack ability).




Let's tackle this first. Please don't miss anything even the scans from imgur, if the evidence for yours counter points are the evidence me have provided myself please point it out (most funny they are the whole content of game, so much so that I have to question you already misunderstood or didn't know?)
 
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The argument you point out is that it is advanced Tech completely nonsense and contradicts the content of DLC1 in every possible way. According to that Logic, The Father didn't need a physical body and banish demons from Urdak - which literally the entire contents of DLC1, Doom slayer also didn't have to depend on The Father or kill Davoth like the ONLY WAY to save THIS WORLD and its people (The earth which Doom eternal take place) despite all his feats against demon"s conquest and strength (2B possibly 2A and easily killing Davoth - who is stronger All demons combined and so play the role as Ruler, their Creator and Whole HEll is nothing more than an extension of his power) etc,...
 
Vietthai96 said:
1. That not evidence for Low 1-C, nothing in your argument prove to be it is actually transcended over 4-D structure to be 5-D, it is just you interpreted it as higher dimension as in higher than 4-D structure. The whole later line of "The Father has no choice but to banish demons to seal Urdak, which is the only way to make them inaccessible to other universes, harm all existence" doesn't prove anything.
2. No, inaccessible is not = higher dimensional/transcended over existence, interdimensional high-way is just connecting thing, doesn't mean transcend.
3. Again, this can't prove Low 1-C, the whole line is just: Demon is strong, nothing else note worthy
4. Again, inaccessible is not = higher dimensional/transcended over existence
5. Again, this can't prove Low 1-C, the whole line is worthless to prove Low 1-C structure

I don't know what the hell happen to you, to be brutal you trying to pull thing out of context and try to force your interpretation of the context on other, nothing in your argument prove evidence for a Low 1-C structure
Click to expand...
I think you should stop comments before Kieran and I settle the veracity of my arguments before arguing over whether it qualifies for Low-1C or not.
 
Rabbit2002 said:
I think you should stop comments before Kieran and I settle the veracity of my arguments before arguing over whether it qualifies for Low-1C or not.
Click to expand...
Sorry if i'm too aggressive with my comment back then, but everything you said is just the repeating of higher and lower dimension with the same stuff of inaccessible dimension, nothing prove it to be Low 1-C that transcended over and encompassed 2-B or 2-A multiverses, it just you who intepreting it in the way you want and force it onto other peoples. You said i should stop comment but I also advise you to have better, newer evidences rather than the same circular argument
 
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