Low 1-C Upgrade for Fire Emblem Heroes

[TheGatememer]

Yes, I know. Right, but so why is Kiran's dream considered infinitely superior with R>F when the other isn't?

It is considered infinitely superior, it’s just not Tier 1 since the Realm of Fantasy exists below the Realm of Dreams (ie the main setting). Kiran’s Dream on the other hand exists above the Realm of Dreams, making it Tier 1.

 

[TheGatememer]

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[TheGatememer]

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[TheGatememer]

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[TheGatememer]

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[Masterlight]

Following

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Sounds more like immersion to me. Extremely vague. I will be neutral.

 

[TheGatememer]

Sounds more like immersion to me. Extremely vague. I will be neutral.

It's not immersion, as Kiran's Dream exists above the Realm of Dreams, which is the main cosmology/setting.

 

[TheGatememer]

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[Masterlight]

Soooo............. Are we getting a fire emblem 1c cosmology or what?

 

[TheGatememer]

There is not enough input to tell

 

[TheGatememer]

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[TheGatememer]

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[TheGatememer]

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[TheGatememer]

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[Eficiente]

So, 2 questions. How do we not know this isn't Immersion within Immersion? Do we have any more evidence of they seeing dreams "as mere fiction"? Because what I see is them being called dreams, and why wouldn't they call those realities "dreams" when they're created from dreams, it's not the same as being infinite times more complex because they are mere fiction.

Also, if anything, one of this dream universes having a flow of time different than in the real world is odd when its time should be nothing next to a reality infinite times more complex. If I grab a comic the characters inside are paused forever, not with a different flow of time.

 

[Zencha9]

i never saw the wiki treating something like that as Immersion within Immersion and even if they do it would still qualify for tier 1 if the lower world is a space-time
time varies from media to media and isn't really a factor really when it comes to higher structures

 

[Eficiente]

Don't go off what the wiki does, but if it matters sense for this to be Tier 1. We have too many mistakes. If you go into a dream world, or a comic, or inside a tv or whatever, why would that place not have space and time? Why does it matter if they have wacky rules like time being different there? They very much can have that and still be fiction, seeing it as fiction will not make the reality that does so Tier 1.

 

[Zencha9]

Don't go off what the wiki does, but if it matters sense for this to be Tier 1. We have too many mistakes. If you go into a dream world, or a comic, or inside a tv or whatever, why would that place not have space and time? Why does it matter if they have wacky rules like time being different there? They very much can have that and still be fiction, seeing it as fiction will not make the reality that does so Tier 1.

an alternate dream world that doesn't have physical properties or a wacky world inside a 2-D drawing is not really the same as layered world with physical properties

 

[Zencha9]

anyways this needs more mod input

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'm no Tier 1 expert, nor do I have foul proof knowledge on Persona/SMT's lore or why TMS has gotten Tier 1. But I'll be placed as neutral for the time being.

 

[Planck69]

OP makes sense to me. Neutral leaning on agreeing.

 

[Masterlight]

A tier 1 fire emblem?! Thats out of nowhere.

 

[TheGatememer]

So, 2 questions. How do we not know this isn't Immersion within Immersion? Do we have any more evidence of they seeing dreams "as mere fiction"? Because what I see is them being called dreams, and why wouldn't they call those realities "dreams" when they're created from dreams, it's not the same as being infinite times more complex because they are mere fiction.

The realities aren't called dreams because they are created from dreams. The realities are literal dreams.

The Realm of Fantasy is stated to be the dream within the dream, and a realm beneath the Realm of Dreams. For the latter statement, taking into account the former statement, and the fact that dreams, with the right context can be used for R/F stuff, shows that it's not an indication of it's position in the cosmology, but rather the Realm of Fantasy's dimensional inferiority to the Realm of Dreams. So in the context of dreams within dreams, it is talking about layers of reality, and not something like immersion.

In other words, this tells us that the Realm of Fantasy is a realm embedded within the Realm of Dreams, is a lower plane of existence, and there is a R/F difference, which checks the boxes for lower/higher dimensions. Of course, this same relationship exists for the Realm of Fantasy and Kiran's Dream, where the former is just a dream to the latter, making the latter Tier 1.

Also, if anything, one of this dream universes having a flow of time different than in the real world is odd when its time should be nothing next to a reality infinite times more complex.

The Realm of Dreams is a separate plane, not a layer below the Real World. So the Real World isn't more infinitely more complex than the Realm of Dreams.

 

[Eficiente]

The Realm of Fantasy is stated to be the dream within the dream, and a realm beneath the Realm of Dreams. For the latter statement, taking into account the former statement, and the fact that dreams, with the right context can be used for R/F stuff, shows that it's not an indication of it's position in the cosmology, but rather the Realm of Fantasy's dimensional inferiority to the Realm of Dreams. So in the context of dreams within dreams, it is talking about layers of reality, and not something like immersion.

In other words, this tells us that the Realm of Fantasy is a realm embedded within the Realm of Dreams, is a lower plane of existence, and there is a R/F difference, which checks the boxes for lower/higher dimensions. Of course, this same relationship exists for the Realm of Fantasy and Kiran's Dream, where the former is just a dream to the latter, making the latter Tier 1.

Well, don't already presume yoou have that "right context can be used for R/F stuff", nothing you showed proves this isn't Immersion. I don't call it "an indication of it's position in the cosmology", that's just one example we gave of something that's not Tier 1, if they say "it's a dream within a dream" then it's that. They don't talk about dimensional inferiority or layers of reality in the context we use it, which is what needs to be proven. I can however say it's Immersion because that's just a term for things like being in a dream.

A realm being a realm embedded within another realm sure sounds notable and all, but let's not overblow it, that's not a lower plane of existence, any reality can have another reality within it within a small space while it's bigger inside -- even universe-sized. That's common in fiction. It's not tier 1 to go inside a comic inside another comic, or inside a tv inside another tv, or a new mirror world inside a mirror world, etc. You can throw in the word "layers" to this and it would be correct, but not layers of reality in the context of tier 1. Something (a place in this case) being fictional can go as in "it's not real, so since I'm real I'm infinite times more complex" just as it can go as in "it's not supposed to be real, but it basically is as it works as another reality in practice. I'm not infinite times more complex", the former needs evidence as big as the claim.

 

[TheGatememer]

Well, don't already presume yoou have that "right context can be used for R/F stuff", nothing you showed proves this isn't Immersion. I don't call it "an indication of it's position in the cosmology", that's just one example we gave of something that's not Tier 1,

Never claimed you did say that. I said it to show that the word "beneath" in this case doesn't mean position in cosmology.

if they say "it's a dream within a dream" then it's that. They don't talk about dimensional inferiority or layers of reality in the context we use it, which is what needs to be proven. I can however say it's Immersion because that's just a term for things like being in a dream.

A realm being a realm embedded within another realm sure sounds notable and all, but let's not overblow it, that's not a lower plane of existence, any reality can have another reality within it within a small space while it's bigger inside -- even universe-sized. That's common in fiction. It's not tier 1 to go inside a comic inside another comic, or inside a tv inside another tv, or a new mirror world inside a mirror world, etc. You can throw in the word "layers" to this and it would be correct, but not layers of reality in the context of tier 1. Something (a place in this case) being fictional can go as in "it's not real, so since I'm real I'm infinite times more complex" just as it can go as in "it's not supposed to be real, but it basically is as it works as another reality in practice. I'm not infinite times more complex", the former needs evidence as big as the claim.

Sure, being a realm inside of another realm alone doesn't qualify for higher dimensions. But like I said, it's not just "being a dream within a dream", the Realm of Fantasy is also stated as being the realm beneath the Realm of Dreams. And like I said above, that doesn't mean it's a lower realm in the sense that it is literally a lower realm in terms of position in the cosmology. In this context, it is referring to a lower plane of existence. So to reiterate, it's not "just" a realm inside of another realm, but it is also referred to as a lower plane of existence, which is consistent with the Realm of Fantasy being viewed as a dream to the Realm of Dreams.

 

[Eficiente]

the Realm of Fantasy is also stated as being the realm beneath the Realm of Dreams. And like I said above, that doesn't mean it's a lower realm in the sense that it is literally a lower realm in terms of position in the cosmology. In this context, it is referring to a lower plane of existence.

As said before, don't already presume yoou have that "right context can be used for R/F stuff", don't "like I said above" here. Being beneath a reality doesn't mean Tier 1 unless proven, if you sum it up with another thing that doesn't mean Tier 1 then nothing happens. Even if being "beneath" isn't about positioning as one would think, then that's no reason to conclude it's about R/F stuff, it can very much be about complexity w/o being infinite times more complex, or a useless measure of relevance.

 

[TheGatememer]

As said before, don't already presume yoou have that "right context can be used for R/F stuff", don't "like I said above" here. Being beneath a reality doesn't mean Tier 1 unless proven, if you sum it up with another thing that doesn't mean Tier 1 then nothing happens. Even if being "beneath" isn't about positioning as one would think, then that's no reason to conclude it's about R/F stuff, it can very much be about complexity w/o being infinite times more complex, or a useless measure of relevance.

Why would it be a "useless measure of relevance" in this context? It is referring to a reality being viewed as a dream (which is legitimate justification for R/F), and is backed by being stated to be the reality beneath, and imbedded in another. If "beneath" isn't referring to positioning in cosmology here, What else would it be, especially with the other two factors?

 

[Eficiente]

Simply because being above or below something can always be as in a useless, vague measure of relevance regardless of the differences of the things above and below. Seeing something as a dream is a "legitimate justification for R/F" in the sense that "it can be that with evidence backing it", don't give it more relevance than what it has, don't go back to it as if it inhereditary meant something when it only has to potential to mean something with more, proper evidence & context. As said before, if you sum it up things that don't mean Tier 1 with things that don't mean Tier 1 you get nothing, being "beneath" doesn't matter, nor being imbedded, to still claim that this things mean something when they individually don't would be dogmatism. I said before what "beneath" can mean, and you could really throw in "positioning" too on top since nothing goes against that, but let's say that simply isn't the case, it's still not Tier 1.

 

[TheGatememer]

Simply because being above or below something can always be as in a useless, vague measure of relevance regardless of the differences of the things above and below. Seeing something as a dream is a "legitimate justification for R/F" in the sense that "it can be that with evidence backing it", don't give it more relevance than what it has, don't go back to it as if it inhereditary meant something when it only has to potential to mean something with more, proper evidence & context. As said before, if you sum it up things that don't mean Tier 1 with things that don't mean Tier 1 you get nothing, being "beneath" doesn't matter, nor being imbedded, to still claim that this things mean something when they individually don't would be dogmatism. I said before what "beneath" can mean, and you could really throw in "positioning" too on top since nothing goes against that, but let's say that simply isn't the case, it's still not Tier 1.

You say that the word "beneath" doesn't matter here, because it could mean something else, when you have yet to prove exactly that. The word "beneath" is referring to the Realm of Fantasy being a dream to the Realm of Dreams. Don't claim nothing here means Tier 1, when viewing something as a dream can mean R/F, something you yourself admitted if there is evidence backing it up.

With that in mind, the word "beneath" can only really be referring to the Realm of Fantasy being the lower plane to the Realm of Dreams, as there is already an established relationship of the former being a dream to the latter. It’s viewing a structure as a lower plane of existence via viewing it as a dream, which is a Reality Fiction difference.

 

[Luckyfun]

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[TheGatememer]

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