LOTR contradictions

[Antvasima]

You can do so if you wish.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Okay.

I think this is the last OP edit.

Can someone evaluate it?

 

[Antvasima]

I will ask Azathoth and Dark649.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Those anyone else have any thoughts?

 

[Antvasima]

I seem to have a problem getting other staff members to evaluate important threads.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Its probably a matter of not being well versed on it.

I've seen this thread plenty of times, if I knew enough I'd give my thoughts on it but I don't, it's probably the same for them.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Yes.

LOTR is a very complicated verse, but without input the LOTR pages will be trapped in a contradiction filled stated forever.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I believe this is the third highlight of this thread.

At this point all we can do is wait for Azathoth to respond since he is the only one who can make a call.

 

[Aeyu]

"Istari," in Gandalf's profile should be capitalized; it is a proper noun refering to the name and order of Gandalf's wizardry (there were obviously other "wizards," that existed, though they may have only been tinkerers/enchanters, and the Istari are set apart from them.)

 

[MasterOfArda]

Firstly, I believe it is.

Secondly, hallelujah, a response!

 

[Aeyu]

My personal two-cents, though it may be spurious, is that Eru should receive a solid "Unknown," rating, since it's not really known where his power lies, although that's more of a syntax thing since it's already in his profile. I just think it would discourage people from making a myriad of inconclusive matches involving him, which is something that has already happened to some degree. Otherwise, I agree with all of these revisions, though my opinion likely means little.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I do actually own the Silmarillion...

Though I've barely picked it up since i got it.

 

[Aeyu]

I do as well, hard-back with a dust cover and everything, along with the Hobbit and the 3 LoTR books, and a couple of assorted other Tolkien works, like The Tale of Beren and Luthien. I am a very big fan of its biblical implications as well as iconic imagery, and always read it alongside a compendium I own by the artist David Day.

 

[MasterOfArda]

My personal two-cents, though it may be spurious, is that Eru should receive a solid "Unknown," rating, since it's not really known where his power lies, although that's more of a syntax thing since it's already in his profile. I just think it would discourage people from making a myriad of inconclusive matches involving him, which is something that has already happened to some degree.

I one, hundred percent agree.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Also, it seems this thread is finally gaining traction and no longer me just editing the OP and Antvasima notifying staff.

 

[Aeyu]

It is unknown where he stands dimensionally or conceptually, similar to the Emperor Beyond the Sea in the Narniaverse, only that he is vastly above the Ainur to some degree, with even Melkor being unable to affect him (Melkor, I think, should be a 2-C, since he was able to handle ALL of the other Ainur at once in the beginning after the Ainulindale, as well as during the Song itself, almost creating a completely different Ea until Iluvatar stepped in and nullified Melkor's actions, reducing them to simply discords in the harmony.)

And yes, I agree.

 

[Myriadofmemes]

I believe that we do not index characters based on their evident correlation to real life deities. And as the LOTR series were published way before any extensive research had been done on dimensional theory we can't reliably rate Eru as anything else than a 4-D entity.

 

[Aeyu]

That's not the point I'm trying to make, the point is that even within the context of the greater franchise, it's impossible to gauge exactly how powerful he was.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I think the new suggestions are mostly fine, from a glance.

Moving Eru to "Unknown" is also fine, for me.

 

[Aeyu]

What is your opinion on a possibly 2-C ranking for Melkor based on the potentiality of him creating his own separate continuity until his power was nullified by Iluvatar?

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. I will inform Dark649 before we start with the revisions.

 

[Dark649]

Agree with the suggestion made.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you. Feel free to apply the changes then.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I'm not particularly a fan of moving Eru to outright "Unknown" since he outright has Tier 2 feats.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

I'm not particularly a fan of moving Eru to outright "Unknown" since he outright has Tier 2 feats.

Tier 3-A, at least

 

[Kaltias]

@Tomcat

His thoughts created Low 2-C's. He can't be 3-A

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

@Tomcat
His thoughts created Low 2-C's. He can't possibly be 3-A

What 2-Cs are you referring to?

 

[Kaltias]

Low 2-C is a single timeline, not multiple universes

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

Ah yes. So he is at least Low 2-C.

 

[Kaltias]

Yes. I was referring to the Valar btw

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

IMO The Valar don't get 2-C even in true form because all of them together created the universe

But that's a whole different can of worms

 

[Aeyu]

I'm not referring to the Valar as a whole, just Melkor, who was capable of disrupting the Ainulindale completely (something none of the other Valar were capable of) as well as creating his own concepts and threatening to overtake the Song completely if Iluvatar didn't introduce a third and more powerful Theme than the previous two, which Melkor was trapped in the boundaries of. Note that at full strength, Melkor could have defeated all of the other Ainur at once combined.

Eru should get Unknown because while he could make a few or many universes, people keep trying to put him in VS matchups that always end up inconclusive. I think it would save a lot of grief, frankly.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

When disrupting the Ainulindale, he confused a significant number of other Ainur, decommissioning some and gaining support from others. Also, he couldn't actually defeat all the other Ainur at once; however, he could match all the other Ainur at once, unless I'm forgetting a passage.

 

[Aeyu]

[ "One was very great and deep and beautiful, but it was mingled with an unquenchable sorrow, while the other was now grown to unity and a system of its own, but was loud and vain and arrogant, braying triumphantly against the other as it thought to drown it, yet ever, as it essayed to clash most fearsomely, finding itself but in some manner supplementing or harmonising with its rival". also Compare The Lost Road "The other had grown now to a unity and system, yet an imperfect one, save in so far as derived still from the eldest theme of Il├║vatar...").

2. The Great Music of the Ainur progresses thus: Il├║vatar introduces a First Theme to the choir of the Ainur and Melkor 'spoils' it, converting many of the Maiar to his cause in later years (these fallen Maiar become in the later histories characters like the Balrogs, Ungoliant, and Sauron himself.) Next, Il├║vatar imposes a Second Theme, and again Melkor corrupts it. Il├║vatar then proposes a Third Theme, which is also infected by Melkor and devolves into a raging disharmonious conflict. Il├║vatar puts an end to the disharmony with the conducting of "…one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Il├║vatar…" (Ibid.) After the Great Music stops, Il├║vatar promptly chastises Melkor and then leaves the room. This causes Melkor to be ashamed which in its turn causes him to become angry. ]

That's for the first thing.

Basically, Melkor was able to corrupt two separate whole creations of Eru, and infected the third to some degree, creating all the fell concepts that exist within Ea. That's straight from LoTR wiki; although I can go get my Silmarillion later if I absolutely must.

Also, right here for the answer to the second part, although as I said I can consult an official compendium and the Silmarillion itself if need be.

I objectively think that's enough for at least a Possibly 2-C rating, though this is just my opinion on the matter.

 

[Antvasima]

If Eru Illuvatar created several universes, I am fine with "Unknown. At least 2-C", but if Azathoth prefers just "Unknown", then that is fine as well.

 

[Aeyu]

Either or really is fine; (IMO) I just think that matches involving Eru will continue to either be ignored or too inconclusive to come to a decision on. If he stays the former, it provides better argument for the Melkor argument, but if the latter, it will prevent unnecessary threads.

 

[MasterOfArda]

So this is is accepted?

If so, pretty much every page with th category LOTR needs to be unlocked.

 

[Aeyu]

I think we are waiting on more admin input.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Well, Azathoth is pretty much the absoloute authority on the verse and Antvasima said it was okay.

 

[Antvasima]

This is accepted, yes.

If you write a list of the exact names of the pages that need to be unlocked, I can use a script to handle it.