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LOTR contradictions

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I think the 6 range is approriate for them while i disagree the tier 4 and 3 range because that's too high for them.
 
Because he fought Gandalf the Grey, which held his own with Saruman. But if you disagree with that because it's from the movie, then we should scale the strongest damage of them or those that can scale to to them in the book story, lastly i repeat the should not scale from tier 4 or 3 beings.
 
I was not arguing for tier 4 or tier 3.

I was the one that said that feat was an outlier.

Tier 4 or tier 3 Balrogs would cause massive inconsistenies.
 
Ok, we need to find a feat done by them or those that scale to them, do you think the Balrogs are weaker than Smaug?.
 
No. The Balrogs should be far stronger than him.

I will look for a feat to scale them to.

Perhaps Azathoth knows one.
 
Mainly because Osse is never treated as a special case (as far as I can recall), like Sauron or Arien in some cases, whereas Balrogs have always been treated as exceptionally dangerous and powerful, even amongst other Maiar. They were one of the things Morgoth put power into (when he actually had some to expend), after all.
 
Okay, though personally I think the previous stats for Gandalf, with the low-end justification being for damaging a large mountain, where better.

The "At least 7-B, likely 6-B" one.
 
MasterOfArda said:
Okay, though personally I think the previous stats for Gandalf, with the low-end justification being for damaging a large mountain, where better.

The "At least 7-B, likely 6-B" one.
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I am fine with Diety scaling in fiction. Azzy makes sense to me.

We dont really have much to go on sadly other then they are Maiar. Usually when Authors make a sense of hiearchy, they didnt get a dartboard with random names on it and throw a dart hoping to get lucky. No, it usually means they are comparable to one another.

Occams Razor dictates the assumption with the least amount of leaps of logic tends to be correct. We have nothing to go off of so lets use 6-B as a baseline for all the Maiar.
 
KinkiestSins said:
I am fine with Diety scaling in fiction. Azzy makes sense to me.

We dont really have much to go on sadly other then they are Maiar. Usually when Authors make a sense of hiearchy, they didnt get a dartboard with random names on it and throw a dart hoping to get lucky. No, it usually means they are comparable to one another.

Occams Razor dictates the assumption with the least amount of leaps of logic tends to be correct. We have nothing to go off of so lets use 6-B as a baseline for all the Maiar.
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Okay, but the contradictions still exist, and we need to find a way to word it.

Just because the Balrogs stats are justifyied, the reasoning for them is not on the page.

Only really the Balrog and Gandalf the Grey make sense, but they don't have the right justification.
 
I would also appreciate staff help with better justification texts.
 
Allright, what are the contradictions @MasterofArda?

I will keep this simple.

We should change the scaling for those who are debately weaker then Osse as 'Likely 6-B'

So Balrogs and Gandalf the Grey. Gothmog gets no special treatment as well, he is 'Likely 6-B'

We should hold the 'Likely' statistics via if they scale to either of these characters. Mostly because while they have no 'feats or statements' of this level, we can assume within reasonable doubt that they are comparable.


Osse is 6-B.

Anyone who is a special case among the maiar, say unrestricted Gandalf and Sauron are 'At Least 6-B' on the sole grounds of being superior.

Lets forget about the whole Ungoliat bit and chalk it up to PIS.

I feel like there is way more individual nuance, I am not that informed of the LOTR verse (I do own the similarillion tho)

I propose the following

Gandalf the Gray, Balrogs, Gothmog: "Likely 6-B"

(Should be somewhat comparable to Osse.)

Osse: "6-B"

(Raised Numeron from the sea)


Gandalf the White and Sarumon are 6-B like Osse.


Now unrestricted Gandalf is interesting since there is a direct statement he is unusually powerful for a Maiar in that context)

We should consider him "At Least 6-B"

This scales to unrestricted Sauron


Again, dont know the verse that well, but these are just suggestions to get the ball rolling.
 
"Gandalf the Gray, Balrogs, Gothmog: "Likely 6-B"

(Should be somewhat comparable to Osse.)"

I would propose adding at least 7-B to that, as Gandalf and the Balrog did considerable damage to a large mountain, and that would serve as a good low-end.

"Osse: "6-B"

(Raised Numeron from the sea)"

Given how high-end the Numennor feat is I think at least and possibly higher is appropriate.

Or, simplified:

At least 6-B, possibly higher.

"Gandalf the White and Sarumon are 6-B like Osse."

I can see them being the same tier as Osse, but for a diffrent reason.

It was stated that only the power of Sauron himself could pierce the diffenses of Lothlorien, which seem like a good "At least 6-B, possibly higher" for me.

I think Saruman should be "At least 6-B, possibly higher" and "At least 6-B, likely higher" for Gandalf the White since he stomped Saruman.

Saruman was the White for a while, making him stronger than Galadriel, and Gandalf easily stomped Saruman.

"Now unrestricted Gandalf is interesting since there is a direct statement he is unusually powerful for a Maiar in that context)

We should consider him "At Least 6-B""

I would propose, "At least 6-B, likely far higher" if he is exceptionally powerful amongst the Maiar, since he should be way stronger than Gandalf the White.

This should also scale to Eonwe.
 
I am having a bit of an understanding problem here: mainly, why is Gandalf even stated as that strong? The guy is running away from Orcs and Wargs but is stated as countrylevel? How does that work exactly? nad, at least in the movies, Gandalf got badly hurt just beeing knocked on his back and thrown around a bit. It seems to me, this crossscaling really does not make that much sense.

Note: Im not meaning this sarcasticly. I just do not get these ratings...
 
I think thats just PIS it happens alot in fiction, Wonder Woman for example is an MFTL+ Solar System buster and yet she gets torn up by bullets.
 
Heilergott said:
I am having a bit of an understanding problem here: mainly, why is Gandalf even stated as that strong? The guy is running away from Orcs and Wargs but is stated as countrylevel? How does that work exactly? nad, at least in the movies, Gandalf got badly hurt just beeing knocked on his back and thrown around a bit. It seems to me, this crossscaling really does not make that much sense.
Note: Im not meaning this sarcasticly. I just do not get these ratings...
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In the books, Gandalf only ever lost a fight to a Balrog(I believe). He ran away from orcs and wargs because his companions were far more fragile then he was and he needed to stay with them in order to protect them. As for losing a fight to Saruman in the movies, that means absolutely nothing, unless we go through with making separate movie profiles.
 
ThatCrimsonTomcat said:
In the books, Gandalf only ever lost a fight to a Balrog(I believe). He ran away from orcs and wargs because his companions were far more fragile then he was and he needed to stay with them in order to protect them. As for losing a fight to Saruman in the movies, that means absolutely nothing, unless we go through with making separate movie profiles.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's bassically right, do I think he tied since they both died and that would be inconclusive by our standards.
 
MasterOfArda said:
ThatCrimsonTomcat said:
In the books, Gandalf only ever lost a fight to a Balrog(I believe). He ran away from orcs and wargs because his companions were far more fragile then he was and he needed to stay with them in order to protect them. As for losing a fight to Saruman in the movies, that means absolutely nothing, unless we go through with making separate movie profiles.
Click to expand...
Yeah that's bassically right, do I think he tied since they both died and that would be inconclusive by our standards.
Click to expand...
True. Either way, Gandalf was no pansy.
 
Uh

You do realize that the Glorfindel that killed a Balrog is a different one from the guy who fought the Nazgul.

Unless he reincarnated. I believe I recall reading that Third Age Glorfindel was named after First Age Glorfindel but I could be wrong.
 
What do you think about the new suggestions Azathoth and Dark649?
 
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