LOTR contradictions

[Antvasima]

I should probably close this thread.

 

[MasterOfArda]

I have locked the profiles, but think that Azathoth disagreed about rating the Maiar that high, if I remember correctly.

No.

It was their physical forms he disagreed with.

He even acccepted giving them true forms.

If anthing, he agreed with it, thugh it would be better to have confirmation.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am personally uncertain about even rating the Valar that high. I do not think that anything indicates that they can each singlehandedly create and destroy universal space-time continuums.

 

[Antvasima]

But you can ask Azathoth to comment here.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

All the Ainur together created the entire universe, including the concept of time(I believe). However, it is unknown whether how difficult this was for them, though we can safely assume it was a big deal

 

[MasterOfArda]

Let's see what Azathoth thinks, though I doubt that there is that great of a power diffrence between the true forms of the Valar and Maiar.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, since it was a collective feat, it should probably only warrant High 3-A ratings,

 

[Aeyu]

I honestly see Melkor being 2-C before the Maiar being Low 2-C. And even then, I don't think they are universal even if we go with that logic. High 3-A is the highest you could logically ever put them IMO.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

Let's see what Azathoth thinks, though I doubt that there is that great of a power diffrence between the true forms of the Valar and Maiar.

The line between Valar and Maiar is a very thin one.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Well, there is the possibility of multiple LOTR universes, such as the main one, the Unseen World, Mandos, the Realm of Dreams, etc

 

[Aeyu]

My reasoning for High 3-A is different, however. It mainly is because they were of similar consistency to their brethren, but they were not at the same level (they were never universal by any means)

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

The Unseen world was more like a higher dimension then a different universe as far as I can tell, and I recall no mention of a "Land of Dreams". However, I agree that there is a possibility(even likelyhood) that there are multiple universes in the LotR legendarium.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Well, any debating won't really get us anywhere without Azathoth

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

The final word on all things LotR here

 

[Aeyu]

The best evidence for there being multiple universes is in Iluvatar making three different themes, with the third shaping Ea.

(Am currently very tired)

 

[MasterOfArda]

Yeah.

Pretty much.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

It's basically a toss-up. We don't know what/how Illuvitar thinks, so we don't know whether he would bother to create more universes

 

[Aeyu]

It depends what you consider a universe, referencing my above statement once again.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

He could also have started another song

 

[Antvasima]

It is better if you start a new thread about the High 3-A ratings and the Maiar's true forms, and then invite Azathoth there, so we can close this one.

 

[MasterOfArda]

Very well.

 

[Dark649]

I'm afraid that the Massively FTL+ attack speed cannot scale for the characters because it originates from a not phisical lifting strength, also Sauron fighting Manwe [A character far stronger than him] could be PIS.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

I'm afraid that the Massively FTL+ attack speed cannot scale for the characters because it originates from a not phisical lifting strength, also Sauron fighting Manwe [A character far stronger than him] could be PIS.

IMO resisting attacks Manwe sent from afar isn't the same as fighting Manwe

 

[Dark649]

.
IMO resisting attacks Manwe sent from afar isn't the same as fighting Manwe

Which is still PIS because said attacks would oneshot him since they came from a likely Multi-Galaxy being.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

.
IMO resisting attacks Manwe sent from afar isn't the same as fighting Manwe

Which is still PIS because said attacks would oneshot him since they came from a likely Multi-Galaxy being.

I'm saying that I don't think the lightning bolts held a significant amount of Manwe's power and therefore aren't PIS but don't allow Sauron to scale from Manwe either.

 

[Dark649]

Stop quoting each other back and forth, also even if charged at minimun it would still oneshot him. Also the Massively FTL+ attack speed does not even come from an attack speed, but rather from a lifting strength feat.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

Okay

I don't think Sauron is so weak that Manwe's least powerful attack would oneshot him but the murky power levels of LotR characters that started this entire mess also prevent me from proving it

 

[Dark649]

Also dodging a lighting bolt is normally Massively Hypersonic.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

He didn't dodge it, he tanked it

 

[Dark649]

Then why it is scaled on his reaction speed if he never dodged said attack?.

 

[Dark649]

Also Osse lifting Numenor, which is an island is not Class E Lifting Strength.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

Actually in my copy of the Silmarillion, it says:

"...And Sauron stood there upon the pinnacle and defied the lightning and was unharmed..."

To me that says he tanked it and sustained no injuries but it could be interpereted either way

 

[Dark649]

Sauron did not took the attack and by defing it, it means that he reacted to the lightning unless he knew that it was coming at him. Said lightning is MHS rather than Massively FTL+.

 

[MasterOfArda]

@Dark649

The Osse feat was actually calced at Class E.

Also, Varda lifted the stars into the sky at likely Massively FTL+ speeds.

If you can move an object at x speeds, that means x is your attack speed.

 

[ThatCrimsonTomcat]

de┬Àfydə╦êf─½/verb #openly resist or refuse to obey. He could resist by tanking it or by avoiding it. IMO it's a matter of interperetation

 

[MasterOfArda]

Sauron did not took the attack and by defing it, it means that he reacted to the lightning unless he knew that it was coming at him. Said lightning is MHS rather than Massively FTL+.

Said lightning is one of Manwe's attacks, who has an attack speed of Massively FTL+.

 

[Dark649]

Ok, i understand.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that scaling speed from reality warping seems very unreliable.

 

[MasterOfArda]

She didn't create the stars, she lifted them.

 

[Antvasima]

It is still a reality warping feat to take something small, move it at MFTL+ speed, and make it much larger. In addition, we have no idea if their lightning bolts travel at a similar speed, as they have very different properties, but it seems highly unlikely.