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Looking at Stats -Final Fantasy VII-: Re-Organizing

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Well, holy crap it's actually done. So I made this blog here and here to try to explain the stats in detail and many topics related to them. My idea is to use it to better organize the profiles. No major changes or anything (@Comicgyal and @XXKINGXX69 already brought that up), but there's quite a bit I think we could clean up and update.

Strap on, this is a lot.

First of all, thanks to the following people (I know regular users can't tag, don't worry):

@Comicgyal for bringing up the Tactics crossover upgrade in a proper CRT.
@XXKINGXX69 for the upgrade to Gilgamesh which is the major change here.
@Dalesean027 thanks my man, your calcs are what made possible to bring this to a finish. Sonic supporters I've met on this site have are some pretty great people. And also with thanks for your patience with the amount of requests I made. You rock.
@Migue79 for helping out with evaluating some calcs and for also putting up with my pestering.
@KLOL506 okay, for him it was Tuesday of another jerk in the wiki bothering him with calcs, but his input and corrections allowed to get Dale's calcs through.



I. Overal Tiers:




1. Crossover Scaling with Final Fantasy Tactics (2-A):

The major addition here is a revision to the addition made by @Comicgyal, that would be the 2-C scaling from Cloud being sent to Ivalice in Final Fantasy Tactics. As mentioned in @XXKINGXX69's CRT, essentially how Gilgamesh scales. Here is the full explanation, but to summarize:

  1. The Void is a multiversal force. Not only the Final Fantasy worlds are infinite, some of them such as the setting of Final Fantasy Chronicles: Ring of Fates branch into infinite parallel worlds. And to my understanding, so is the setting of World of Final Fantasy.
  2. Bartz, Lenna, Faris and Krile are strong enough to defeat Neo Exdeath and Enuo who controlled the Void, scaling all of them to 2-A.
  3. Gilgamesh scales to the endgame party, as little before they fought Neo Exdeath he briefly fought them and, if certain conditions are met during the game, he will jump in to help them against the Necrophobe, an optional boss right before Exdeath. So he's obviously 2-A as well.
  4. After these events, Gilgamesh wanders the Rift and ends up in various Final Fantasy worlds, which including Ivalice.
  5. In Final Fantasy XII Gilgamesh fights and is defeated by Vaan, Balthier and the party. Later, in Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings, he is fought again and defeated, with Vaan even recruiting him as a Summon (and according to Final Fantasy lore, you have a Summon you scale to it). For this reason Vaan and Balthier scale to Gilgamesh.
  6. Additionally, in Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift, Vaan and Penelo appear, already as full fledged Sky Pirates and Vaan is rescued and then both teams up with the main character Luso.
  7. As previously explained in @Comicgyal CRT, they all appear in Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions, with Luso even being a mandatory encounter and fight alongside Ramza.
  8. Cloud can also be recruited in Final Fantasy Tactics, with his appearance actually being explained and justified in detail.
  9. So Luso, Ramza and Cloud scale to Balthier who defeated Gilgamesh, making them 2-A.
However...

I think, given how roundabout Cloud's scaling is, we should keep the original feats from Final Fantasy VII as well. Unlike Vaan and Balthier who directly fought Gilgamesh, or Luso who at least scales to in his own game, Cloud scales in a different game, to people to fought Gil in another game. This doesn't make it less valid, but much less straightforward so I think the original feats to explain the game's own standing should also be considered, given how out of its own lore the Final Fantasy Tactics crossover is.

Essentially something like: Multi-Galaxy level (punched Sephiroth in the ear), likely Multiverse level+ (Fought alongside Balthier whom had previously defeated Gilgamesh)


2. Reorganizing the original Final Fantasy VII keys:

First of all, get rid of the Midgar key. Honestly, it's pretty redundant and is just a less haxed version of the second key. Initially it had its gimmick when the characters were 9-A there, but now given they all scale to High 6-A right away it has no real point. Which bring to the next point, reorganize the keys of the original game a bit. Right now they are Midgar | Post Midgar up to Whirlwind Maze (when Sephiroth summons Meteor) | Post Whirlwind Maze to Final Battle. I think it's just easier to go for Disc 1 (Midgar to Aerith's death, which also makes Aerith's tiering less arbitrary) | Disc 2 (Post Aerith's death up to Midgar Raid) | Disc 3 (Final Battle with Sephiroth). Also, instead of trying to track the scaling through the discs and the awkward jumps, simply go for the power they had at the end of each one: High 6-A for Disc 1, 4-A for Disc 2 and 3-B for Disc 3, applying the 2-A of scaling in Final Fantasy Tactics accordingly. This only applies to the original game, Remake will still have a key for the Midgar section as it corresponds to the first chapter of the new story, so it will go something like Remake | Rebirth | Part 3.


3. Adding a couple of new keys for Crisis Core (and Jenova):

Aside the new one proposed by @HST_Master, it would be adding the following (new keys in bold):

  • Zack Fair: SOLDIER 2nd Class | SOLDIER 1st Class | World of Final Fantasy | Dissidia -> High 6-A | 4-A | 2-A | 2-A
  • Genesis Rhapsodos: Prime Condition | Degrading | Genesis Avatar | G-Monsters -> 4-A | 4-A | 4-A | At most 4-A
  • Jenova: Original Body | BIRTH and LIFE | DEATH | SYNTHESIS | Post Original Game -> 4-A | High 6-A | 4-A | 3-B | Unknown

The explanations for the scaling are in the "Characters who scale" section for each tier in the blog. Except for Zack's World of Final Fantasy key, which was proposed recently. But essentially:

  • Zack (SOLDIER 2nd Class): Defeated Ifrit and Bahamut.
  • Genesis (Prime Condition): Pushed a casual Sephiroth back and made him fight more seriously. Gave endgame Zack one of his toughest fights after he had become far stronger since defeating Bahamut Fury.
  • Genesis (Degrading): Despite the degradation of his body, he managed to give a rather recently promoted to SOLDIER 1st Class Zack a close fight.
  • G-Monsters (monsters the Genesis Avatar summons in battle): Can effectively inflict minor damage and inconvenience Zack in battle and be dangerous in large numbers.
  • Jenova (Original Body): Was such a threat to the Planet that the creations of the 8 Weapons was deemed necessary to stop her. Each Weapon is stronger than Zirconiade, a Summon vastly above Bahamut ZERO.
  • Jenova (BIRTH and LIFE): Matched the party who controlled Summons such as Ifrit and Bahamut.
  • Jenova (DEATH): Matched the party, among whom was Red XIII and whom controlled Summons on the level of Bahamut ZERO
  • Additionally, I have a proposal for Minerva's profile (needs updating to current tiering but the profile is useable as it is), and Angeal's tiering will be updated.

II. Stats Adjustments:




1. Attack Potency:

  1. Thanks to @Dalesean027, finally got a proper calc for the bottom tiers feat of shattering a statue, though only Cloud has a profile and key that scales to it. It upgrades from Wall level to Wall level+ with 12,109.5 Kilojoules or 0.0028942399618 Tons.
  2. Also thanks to @Dalesean027, got a calc for the Multi-Galaxy level tier. No changes here, but they explicitly stand at 947.5214 YottaFoe.
  3. Skimming through some old stuff I had I found I had a calc (not made by me, just compiled) that didn't really scale to anybody, but with recent lore revelations from Remake, it could be applied to the low-tiers. Essentially, when Jenova arrived at the Planet, the meteor strike had a power of 12.141 Exatons. Shiva went and froze the impact zone and the whole continent became the game's polar lands. Now, Before Crisis reveals that Summons are part of the Planet's ecosystem and their roles are in the benefit of the balance of nature (Zirconiade's destruction was such an upset to nature that the Planet sent a Weapon to destroy the threat that killed the Summon), so Shiva going to the impact zone is because the Planet deemed Shiva was good enough to deal with the wound and whatever may have caused it so she was sent there. So while Shiva by no means scales to Jenova herself (for whom the Planet decided to create the 8 Weapons), she does scale to the meteor impact itself, and by extension all low-tier Summons and those that scale to them. Essentially, the low-tiers remain in Multi-Continent level, but go from 1 Exaton from Ifrit being able to turn the world to ashes to 12.141 Exatons. Full explanation here.
  4. Regarding the mid-tiers, those at Multi-Solar System level, I've seen people that put Jenova at 8x the power of a single Weapon given she led to the creation of the eight of them. If we accepted that, how much above the Starry Sky feat would she and other characters scale? I mean, a single Weapon is far, far above Bahamut ZERO, who is the basest character with the starry sky feat.
  5. A minor case that doesn't affect anybody anymore in Final Fantasy VII, but may affect Final Fantasy VI and other games: Typhon's Disintegration was re-calced (previous calc here) and it went from 1.019 Tenatons to 795.910803059 Ninatons, still within High 5-A, however.
Additionally, made a section for Spirit Energy and how it affects AP. It's already in the profiles, such as "higher with Limit Breaks" for the party or "higher with the Digital Mind Wave" for Zack, but now there's a full explanation of it. If a character doesn't have a specific technique for Spirit Energy, simply put "higher with Spirit Energy".

2. Durability and Speed:

Okay, this may be a more complicated, but to justify Immesurable Speed the proof is actually...

...absolutely nothing, lol

No changes, here. Moving on.


3. Lifting Strength:

@Dalesean027 being an MVP again, provided with a proper calcs.

  • For the bottom tiers, Barret catching falling boulder was calced at Class 10 with 7,167.69 kg. Only scales to one of Cloud's keys but it corrected it from Class 25 without calc.
  • The only big change here, Typhon's Disintegration turning the Planet upside down was calced at Stellar with 7.321242738E+30 kgf. Due to Typhon's position as a high-tier Summon below Bahamut ZERO and Bahamut Fury all mid-tiers scale from him. And, all in all, everyone in any game who scales to Typhon scales to that as well such as the Final Fantasy VI cast.

III. Explanations:




As you could see, with the blogs I went out of my way to try to explain everything related to scaling and tiering in the games. The idea was to help organize the explanations in the profiles so they are as clear as possible. What I had in mind is when detailing the tiers and such, link directly to the section of the blog where it's explained and simply elaborate in the profile of how the character scales, as the blog takes care of explaining the feat or related lore. If in-depth explanations are required, those can be linked as well as needed.

Using Cloud as an example, whose AP section is the wordiest one right now:

Tier: 9-B+, High 6-A with Heightened Emotions, possibly higher with Weaponry | At least High 6-A, likely higher, even higher with Limit Breaks | 4-A, likely 2-A, higher with Limit Breaks | 3-B, likely 2-A, higher with Limit Breaks | 3-B, likely 2-A, far higher with Limit Breaks | 2-A, far higher with Limit Breaks

Attack Potency: Wall level+, (Compares to 1st Avalanche's troops), Multi-Continent level with Heightened Emotions (Defeated 1st Ver. Ravens, comparable to 3rd Class SOLDIER, whom in large groups could pose a challenge to Cloud during the events of Midgar), possibly higher with Weaponry (Shinra's weapons are designed to be effective against their own superhuman units) | At least Multi-Continent level, likely higher (Commands Summons ranging from Ifrit and Shiva to those much stronger like Bahamut. On the level of Vincent Valentine, whom effortessly beat 3rd. Ver. Ravens, superior to those that could one-shot 2nd Class SOLDIER, who compare to 2nd Class Zack Fair when he defeated Ifrit), even higher with Limit Breaks (Limit Breaks are stated to reach power far above the user's regular capabilities) | Multi-Solar System level (Compares to Red XIII and commands Bahamut ZERO. Became far stronger after restoring his true self, and could easily defeat entire groups of 1st Class SOLDIER and even the Weapons. The former compare to a newly promoted Zack Fair, who easily defeated Bahamut Fury, and the latter being above Zirconiade, a far stronger Summon, behind only the Knights of the Round), likely Multiverse level+ (When transported to Ivalice, fought in Ramza Beoulve's army alongside Balthier as an equal, whom had previously defeated Gilgamesh. Became much stronger after returning to the Planet and restoring his true self), higher with Limit Breaks | Multi-Galaxy level (Commands the Knights of the Round), likely Multiverse level+ (Far stronger than before), higher with Limit Breaks | Multi-Galaxy level, likely Multiverse level+ (Far more powerful than before. Despite being weakened by Geostigma, he could hold his own against the three Remnants of Sephiroth, among whom Kadaj was as strong as Sephiroth in the original game. Once healed, Cloud easily defeated him), far higher with Limit Breaks (His Limit Breaks have become strong enough that even mid-level ones can one-shot enemies that are unaffected his regular attacks) | Multiverse level+ (Draws power from the gods of the cycle, putting him on par with the Warriors of Materia and far above the likes of Neo Exdeath and Enuo. Participated in the defeat of Shinryu), far higher with Limit Breaks

Keys: Prequel Era | Disc 1 | Disc 2 | Disc 3 | Advent Children Onwards | Dissidia

As you can see, it's still pretty clogged, but nowhere near as much as before (had to rewritte frig knows how many times this to trim it down as much as possible). The idea is: explain how the character scales to whoever performed the feat. If they don't scale directly, explain how the scale to the character that does and then how said characters scales to the feat character. This allows to avoid having to navigate several profiles to find the feat (simply go to the linked section of the blog) or vague stuff such as:

Bill: City level (Beat Jill) -> Jill: City level (Held her own against phil) -> Phil: City level (Is the strongest karateman) -> Yadda yadda

Other important information (you can see it all in the index, as well):
  • Why characters scale to their Summons through the series. Here.
  • The explanation of the power of Shinra's weaponry. Here.
  • Elaboration on Summons sustaining dimensions. Here.
  • Elaborating on Jenova's scaling. Here.
  • Full explanation on how Spirit Energy affects power. Here.
  • Advent Children Sephiroth and Remake Sephiroth are not the same person. Here.
  • Additional feats. Here.
On a final note: Please let's use the Dissidia NT render for Cloud. The Nomura artwork from Dissidia 2008 is not bad, but that sappy, overly melancholic and lethargic demeanor he has in it reflects his perma depressed mope personality from the Compilation and Kingdom Hearts, not the headstrong, cocky try hard he actually was in the original game... which the profile covers.

In the calcs section there's a minor detail we should fix, Typhon's Disintegration is listed within Final Fantasy VI's feats, but while Typhon debuted in that game, the attack sequence is from Final Fantasy VII. Similarly, Ifrit being able to reduce the world to ashes is listed in Final Fantasy VII's section, but it comes from Dissidia and it refers to Ifrit in general, so methinks it should be moved to Final Fantasy III (Ifrit's debut game).

Overall Summary of proposed changes:

  • Huge convoluted ass blog finally gets public.
  • Remove the Midgar key and reorganize the current one according to the original game's discs (prequels and sequels remain the same).
  • Upgrade Cloud's 2-C scaling to Final Fantasy Tactics to 2-A but also keep the feats of the original game. Leaving it as: 3-B, likely 2-A, for example.
  • All mid-tiers and above now scale to Typhon's Lifting Strength, putting them in Stellar range.
  • Typhon's Disintegration goes from 1 Tenaton to 795 Ninaton, still within High 5-A. Doesn't affect Final Fantasy VII, but may affect other entries.
  • Low-tiers go from 1 Exaton to 12 Exaton if its deemed acceptable.
  • Bottom tiers get their Lifting Strength downgraded from Class 25 to Class 10, but their AP goes from Wall level to Wall level+
  • Add a SOLDIER 2nd Class key for Zack at High 6-A for defeating Ifrit.
  • Add a Prime Condition, Degrading and Summoned G-Monsteters keys for Genesis. All at 4-A.
  • Divide Jenova's keys in Original Body, BIRTH and Life, DEATH, SYNTHESIS and Post-Game.
  • All feats have proper calcs now.
 
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i dont really see the point in "possibly" 2-A but its whatever, i dont mind whether it stays like that or not
 
Agree with most of this, but I think the cast might not always scale to Ifrit's full power. Not all of Ifrit's attacks are the same power level because he has certain magic stronger than others, and I don't think Cloud and the party has ever survived Ifrit's high 6-A attacks since you can have a magic attack stronger than your other physicals, sort of like how Naruto characters have a UES but they have techniques several tiers above their other attacks or their own durability, and in FF, characters have certain attacks that are magnitudes stronger than their actual tier (Sephiroth's meteor, Exdeath and the Void before he became Neo Exdeath, even summons in Crystal Chronicles games). If there is evidence they need to be as powerful as Ifrit's full power like in FF4 then they would undeniably scale.

There could be some evidence that Ifrit uses all its magic power in 1 attack, I'm sure it would be easy to find it. I'm pretty sure there's a statement that implies you need to handle a summon's full power in order to use it (I believe its the one in your blog but the link is dead so I don't know if that's the same statement I'm referring to) And when you do, it would be good to use that as the justification for High 6-A party instead. In fact Shiva actually doing the permafrost thing could be a better justification for high 6-A because I doubt Shiva uses too much effort to do it, and she clearly uses a lot of effort in her attacks that Cloud can survive in the remake

There's a few things I'd like to add. Souls should have beyond dimensional existence as the substance that makes souls (chaos) has no concept of space and time, supported by Caius' statement
 
I'm only very familiar with WoTL and Crisis Core.
And I agree with it.

Although you forgot my bro Angeal Hewley with the new ratings.

IIRC Angeal hasn't had any changes from the start of Crisis Core up until his Angeal Penance transformation.
so he should be 4-A just like Genesis and Sephiroth. It was explained why he is stronger than Genesis due to him being the successful one in Project G.
 
@XXKINGXX69: I see what you mean. Hmm... I have to go out for a bit right now to tend some christmas related business. Gimme a bit of time. I'll come back in a couple of hours, but I want to give you a proper answer regarding my reasoning and your points.

@TheGreatJedi13: Ah, frig, I actually did add him in the first draft but lost track of it because I focused too much on the new keys =P. But, yeah, as you say his doesn't get changes per se as much as he will be updated to 4-A. Oh yeah, I had totally forgotten that bit of lore that Angeal having turned out better in Project G because he was born from Gillian as opposed to Genesis who was merely injected with her cells. But I can't recall well if it was mentioned if that actually made him stronger in general (and all the hype of Genesis being the best non-sephiroth SOLDIER until Zack came along), it was mentioned though that he had better Jenova like abilities and a less severe degradation. Was it mentioned that Angeal was more powerful?

...

I care about Angeal >_>;... I actually like him better than Zack.

@Bobsican: Ah, dangit. I totally missed that one, my bad. Many FF profiles still use the "At least" including FFVII, so I just kept it as they were. Gonna fix that up, thanks for the heads up.
 
@TheGreatJedi13: Ah, frig, I actually did add him in the first draft but lost track of it because I focused too much on the new keys =P. But, yeah, as you say his doesn't get changes per se as much as he will be updated to 4-A. Oh yeah, I had totally forgotten that bit of lore that Angeal having turned out better in Project G because he was born from Gillian as opposed to Genesis who was merely injected with her cells. But I can't recall well if it was mentioned if that actually made him stronger in general (and all the hype of Genesis being the best non-sephiroth SOLDIER until Zack came along), it was mentioned though that he had better Jenova like abilities and a less severe degradation. Was it mentioned that Angeal was more powerful?
Well, Hollander keeps yapping about how he is the successful one because he doesn't suffer from degradation but monsters or people injected with his cells still suffer degradation. overall I think it's just more or less better Jenova's abilities than genesis. I'm gonna double-check whether it also says he is stronger for being the successful subject, unlike Genesis.
 
Agree with most of this, but I think the cast might not always scale to Ifrit's full power. Not all of Ifrit's attacks are the same power level because he has certain magic stronger than others, and I don't think Cloud and the party has ever survived Ifrit's high 6-A attacks since you can have a magic attack stronger than your other physicals, sort of like how Naruto characters have a UES but they have techniques several tiers above their other attacks or their own durability, and in FF, characters have certain attacks that are magnitudes stronger than their actual tier (Sephiroth's meteor, Exdeath and the Void before he became Neo Exdeath, even summons in Crystal Chronicles games). If there is evidence they need to be as powerful as Ifrit's full power like in FF4 then they would undeniably scale.

While I can't speak for Naruto, not being that familiar with it myself. I actually agree with the overall notion that characters do have specific abilities above their normal capabilites, which is essentially what Limit Breaks are, but I'd say Meteor and the Void are not quite the same as a technique you can perform on your own even if said technique is above your regular power. Meteor and the Void are external power sources that it's more or less stated had an unimaginable power the villains could not achieve on any other way and it's why in those cases scaling can get tricky. But if said power was actively used in battle against an opponent, said opponent can scale (how exactly is argueable, depending if he tanked it, matched it with his own attacks, etc).

With Exdeath and the Void he didn't have the power on his own, but he evenually attained it and used against Bartz and team (reason why they scale), but Sephiroth never used Meteor in battle, and actually can't due to it requiring such strict conditions to use (far more Spirit Energy than he has on his own, seven days before impact), so that's why nobody scales and given the story treats Meteor as the end of the world, nobody should scale so far (barring some weird cryptic stuff in Remake).

In Ifrit's case, he does use Hellfire against the Zack in Crisis Core, which is consistently treated as his ultimate move, and Zack can withstand it. While not as flat as it's mentioned in the Settings Book of FFIV, in Remake you openly need to subdue the Summons through battle to earn their Materia, as well as Crisis Core.

While you don't fight Ifrit for Chadley to get the Materia in Remake, you do have to fight Shiva and Ramuh, who are Summons on the same tier, who do use Diamond Dust and Judgment Bolt against the party. And you do fight Ifrit in later VR Missions.

Now, if you're thinking about the original game where they don't fight Ifrit directly, well, Ifrit is just part of the scaling. It comes mostly from a sum of factors:
  • Zack as a SOLDIER 2nd Class defeated Ifrit. And later defeated it in a rematch to get its Materia.
  • There are the Ravens, warriors created by the first Avalanche in Before Crisis specifically to counter SOLDIER. So they should be no weaker than 3rd Class members.
  • However, Avalanche manages to get their hands on data from the SOLDIER program and enhances the Ravens to the point they are strong enough to one-shot 2nd Class SOLDIER Essai and Sebastian, even both at once. They even ackownledge they are on the level of SOLDIER.
  • After some chapters (three years later story-wise) the Player Turk states that the Ravens she began encountering are far stronger than ever.
  • In a later chapter the Player Turk finds Vincent in Nibelheim and they fight some Ravens, Vincent helps to make short work of them.
  • Vincent also mentions that time doesn't affect him and On the Way to a Smile - Episode Nanaki he reaffirms he's immortal and doesn't die from age, meaning his abilities don't suffer with the pass of time.
  • When Vincent joins Cloud they all can fight together without disparities.

Essentially, even if Zack was stronger than other 2nd Classes, Essai and Sebatian should still be of comparable strength to Zack's earlier days (he's already a 1st Class in his appearances in Before Crisis), the 2nd version Ravens easily one shot them and then a 3rd version was created which Vincent could make short work of. Cloud and the party have no problems keeping up with Vincent.

To this one adds that Ifrit is willing to obey the party. Furthermore, as turns out Remake is actually the very same setting of the original game but getting off-rails due to breaking off from fate's intended path. So the rule that you have to have the strength to earn a Summon's obedience applies retroactively to the original game.


There could be some evidence that Ifrit uses all its magic power in 1 attack, I'm sure it would be easy to find it. I'm pretty sure there's a statement that implies you need to handle a summon's full power in order to use it (I believe its the one in your blog but the link is dead so I don't know if that's the same statement I'm referring to) And when you do, it would be good to use that as the justification for High 6-A party instead. In fact Shiva actually doing the permafrost thing could be a better justification for high 6-A because I doubt Shiva uses too much effort to do it, and she clearly uses a lot of effort in her attacks that Cloud can survive in the remake.

Well, Hellfire, Diamond Dust, Megaflare are consistently protrayed as the Summons most powerful moves. They aren't labelled as Limit Breaks or such in VII, but through the franchise they work out as special moves (they are openly Overdrives in FFX, in Crisis Core they break it out spare intervals with dramatic cinematics, in Remake it's the super powerful move they use before departing).

And of course the link is broken... urgh, let me fix that. (Reunion makes this a lot easier). Essentially, Yuffie manages to steal Bahamut Fury's Materia from Zack when he gets distracted, he panics on that and then a small narration tells that Yuffie decides to give it back because it was more she could handle.

Actually... well, odd to say but, Shiva freezing the northern continent lacks context to work as a feat in itself. Given we don't have a time frame she could have done it instantly or she could have taken her time, we don't know. I was suggesting it as a supporting feat of sorts, but also how she could scale to the meteorite impact of Jenova's arrival because the Planet thought she'd be good enough to deal with it until Jenova caused the clusterfrig she did and the Planet had to resort to making gundams.


There's a few things I'd like to add. Souls should have beyond dimensional existence as the substance that makes souls (chaos) has no concept of space and time, supported by Caius' statement

Yeah, I remember you made a topic about it a bit ago. If you ask me that should be a revision in itself, and one that shouldn't be rushed. If all the souls are the same through the franchise that would be a huge change (not to mention, Beyond Dimensional and Omnipresence are major changes in themselves). The mission descriptions also mentioned a lot of stuff such as that souls are vessels of the divine and struggle to be individual but are part of the whole, or something like that. But without the full context of XIII I didn't know what to make of it.
 
Okay, so update Minerva's profile fully (it's a blog not an actual page yet) and actually made Zirconiade's profile (given how much I bring it up for scaling).

One thing I forgot to mention in the original post: only Cloud and Vincent should get a "far higher with Limit Breaks" in post Original Game keys as those two are the only ones with feats of such massive power jumps. Cloud can one shot with mid-level Limit Breaks enemies that can easily block or no-sell his regular attacks (Bahamut SIN, Kadaj) and Vincent with his Chaos empowerment and transformations can turn around battles he was on the receiving end of curbstomps to deliver them (Azul, Weiss).
 
Why would all summons scale to Typhon's feat in LS? Typhon isn't even using LS, just telekinesis. That Minerva statement should be used in Zack's justification for him scaling above the full power of summons, just find a scan of him surviving any of Minerva's attacks
 
Well, what I followed was... Typhon actually flips the Planet by using its wind powers (scroll down to the translation from the Ultimania Omega), which like all special abilities is rooted in the Spirit Energy or Spirit (the UES of FFVII), which pretty much dictates how strong a living being can be in the setting, especially as Summons are wholly spiritual beings. Essentially, if your Spirit has powers to pull a feat it also scales to your body given the relationship between Spirit (soul, mind and heart) and the physical body (not aplicable to Typhon though since he doesn't have one, but to the regular cast). And, surprisingly, while there are cases of characters being better with magic or physical moves, it's never to a drastic degree, anyone can essentially do anything.

Matter of fact, psychic abilities were an oddity to Jenova and, by extension to Sephiroth, kinda highlighting how unnatural they were. Until Crisis Core retconned it into random Shinra nonsense among its many WTFs.

The mail from Kunzel essentially clarifies that Minerva scales above Zirconiade, that's why I use it there, it streamlines the scaling a little bit and makes clear she's not just above Bahamut Fury. And yeah it can be used on Zack's profile (I thought it was), finding a link of him tanking Judgment Arrow also wouldn't be hard to find with Reunion having just come out.
 
Thanks, my man.

Okay, so... made a small fix in the original post: I hadn't realized before that Typhon's Disintegration calc had been corrected quite a bit a go, now it went up to 795.910803059 Ninatons from the 100 prior. Still below the original 1 Tenaton, but much closer.

Another thing... I was thinking that legitimately some of the characters in the 4-A tier can legitimately scale x8 above the starry sky feat, before the whole "far superior to X who did Y" scaling. Essentially, the Planet deemed that Jenova needed the creation of 8 Weapons to stop, so safe to say Jenova is 8 times stronger than a Weapon? If this is acceptable, it would apply to pre-Lifestream fall Sephiroth and to the Disc 2 party. Sephiroth should be no weaker than Jenova as he essentially became the dominant force of the duo, though there are heavy implications he was influenced (had a stronger Spirit and the Spirit equates to your power essentially). For the main party, there's actually a good feat in there, Cloud survived the energy released by the awakening of 5 Weapons in the Whilwind Maze, all Weapons keep a powerful aura that repels enemies around them, and after pulling together his identity his Spirit and will became a lot stronger, this scales to the rest of the party.
 
This looks fine with me, if Six armed gil was who fought the 12 cast then 2-A should be fine, six armed gil being 2-A was planned for some time
 
Okay, bit of an update. Had some IRL stuff going on last week, so things got delayed here. But got things going in the last couple of days: Cloud is updated (Sephiroth and Zack are almost done, just need to finish the references, these two along with Cloud are the most complicated ones), updated Minerva's profile and added the profiles for the Turks in both continuities as well as Zirconiade.

Also will get to Discord as soon as I get my own PC back from repairs.
 
I might have missed it, but why does Sephiroth not get that non-Dissida 2-A rating too? It takes the whole gang to beat him at the end of FFVII, and they were clearly struggling versus his telekinesis and whatever was making them feel pain before they fought Bizarro Sephiroth. If Cloud is possibly 2-A, he could easily mess Sephiroth up on his own if this "possibly" is true.

Unless it just hasn't been applied yet?
 
I might have missed it, but why does Sephiroth not get that non-Dissida 2-A rating too? It takes the whole gang to beat him at the end of FFVII, and they were clearly struggling versus his telekinesis and whatever was making them feel pain before they fought Bizarro Sephiroth. If Cloud is possibly 2-A, he could easily mess Sephiroth up on his own if this "possibly" is true.

Unless it just hasn't been applied yet?
they changed cloud first and the others will be changed soon
 
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