Final Fantasy 2-A Downgrade

[Bobsican]

This site-wide exaggeration on the series really needs to either be justified better or just be removed.

Now, clickbait aside, this is merely to just remove the "At least" part of any 2-A in FF, needless to say, "At least" is used when a character could possibly/likely be in an higher tier, but in this case it'd be Low 1-C, which can't be extrapolated from mere upscaling by far, and so just being stronger than a 2-A isn't a reasoning to deserve and "At least" here by far.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

**** clickbait titles

But with all seriousness, I agree that At least and 2-A don't belong together unless there's likely/possibly Tier 1. So this is good for me.

 

[Shmooply]

you gave me a ******* heart attack dude
Clickbait aside, this seems fine.

 

[ZetaMarishi]

I'd have thought we'd have done this already. I agree with this, it was a misunderstanding to begin with and we should probably correct it because right now it's kinda clownish.

 

[HST_Master]

Bob istg Simple fix

 

[Jibz]

I agree, that was pretty funny Bob kek

 

[Bobsican]

Given the input so far, and the lack of opposition, I think this can be applied now.

 

[Jibz]

think you'd need more then 1 staff to approve, but thats just based off my own observations

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Glad this is here. I was going to bring up FFVII's (and almost by extension the entire series') baseline 6A power. As mentioned in Cloud's Bio leading to this https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...inal_Fantasy_VII_-_Scaling#Scaling_to_Summons

I'm going to go in-depth about this because this is also a sitewide problem and why I detest this website.

First off, the numbers indicated do not constitute canon of those games. It's simply to show which entry in series they showed up in (as dated to the Dissidia game). Every Ifrit and every Summon is different. If THIS Ifrit can potentially "turn the world to ash", cool, it doesn't mean they all can. But let's address that too.

It is ridiculous to always attribute the maximum power a scaled opponent can dish out to their scaled target's baseline. Bahamut Fury can destroy the moon, alright cool that's a feat we can calc but he doesn't do that all the time. Do his claw swipes scale to his ability to destroy the Moon? Unlikely or he wouldn't bother doing one or the other, he'd default to the best tactic available (unless it was somehow in his personality to get bored of doing the most effective tactic). That doesn't mean we can't scale someone's durability to the attack, sure, because we shouldn't pretend they wouldn't use it at least once unless WoG maybe says "that attack didn't happen we put it in for flair" or some shizz. So yeah, Zack tanked Bahamut's Moon Buster. Sweet. This is a very powerful move we know he is capable of and we can rightly assume he used it. We'll come back to FURY.

Ifrit can turn the world to ash. Can. But does he? He never does. Why? "Because there'd be no game, lol?" Well, probably, but if he never does he never does. If he's holding back because he doesn't want to murder everything, fine, but we can only take what we have. Ifrit doesn't turn the world to ash and thus characters cannot scale from it. If he's holding back, he's holding back. It's really as simple as that. You can't scale simply from statements. I mean, we can reasonably believe Cell when he says he can destroy the Solar system, he's way above Frieza who is verifiably dwarf star. But we have nothing for Ifrit, he CANNOT BE VERIFIED. There is no backup. If he throws a simple fireball is that the fireball that "turns the world to ash"? Eh, probably, uh, no. So whatever he attacks you with if it's not FURY'S MOON BUSTER level of verification, it means that he wasn't using that level of power against them, even if he could.

Character's scaling to FURY's speed. It's entirely based off FURY's Moon buster cinematic which is erroneous. Zack never reacts to or dodges the attack. He does nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's a completely erroneous scaling. Also, travel speed is not what I like to call "combat speed". Or reaction speed. FURY doesn't swipe his claws at the speed he moves his entire body, ergo if Zack is dodging his swipes, it doesn't make him scale to FURY's travel speed. One might say it takes more effort to move your entire body than it does your arms and I would remind you there's different locomotion/thrust at play. If rocket ships had arms they probably wouldn't move with the same force or speed as the thrusters moving them in to space. Just a hunch.

There is no proof a summon created their space. It is just as likely it is simply another dimension (same goes for Supernova btw). For all we know all the summons share the same dimension which means something else likely created it (there's some precedence for this in the franchise but I'm not attempting to make a strong argument for that here, I am making an argument that what we have is ambiguous at best and there's more evidence AGAINST them creating their own space than there is FOR. Yes, I read at least some interviews). Furthermore the creation of a dimension and scaling it's power via the sustaining principle is non-applicable to combat. If an entity has to sustain a space then that power is in reserve and can't be used for combat and thus can't be used as part of the scaling force the scaled target can be applied to. You, at least, have to argue the space was created and requires no method of active sustainment by the creator and isn't continuously taxing them in any way.

Just because Red XIII's Stardust Ray looks like a cosmic attack doesn't mean it is. I point to Goku's Tournament of Power "Galaxy" visual as similarity.

I also wrote this awhile back on why creation powers do not equal destructive power.

If you or I were to build a house, first off, using any tools is fine because equipment is valid on a character page and using any resources around to
build the house doesn't waylay my argument, because to argue that anyone made a creation without resources is to argue that they have *infinite
potential for creation*. You are essentially arguing, visa vie, they have infinite power. Without reserve. So if we can agree that's not the case, then
I can build my building. How long does this take me? Months? Years? How much effort? How much resources? If I can attack a wall with a sledgehammer but
not be considered wall level because it takes me half an hour and many strikes, then is a creature who can create A space the same fundamental power
level as the space created? Do you know the time, effort, and resources that went in to it's creation? Because if not, you can't use it. If they made it
quickly, say within a minute or so, then sure. By all means, but if you don't have at least one of the above measures, then it can't be measured as a feat

Creation isn't simply an equation of energy. You need more specifics on that. If you say, "This character can just create a moon and drop it on them therefore they have moon level power." Is too reductive. It takes away from much of what is going on and borders, genuinely, on NLF.

Coming back to ground level and FF and VII, I can't really go any further because all the characters are essentially scaled off Ifrit and FURY atm. One was even recursively so some years back. Until this particular issue is solved there's no more to discuss.

 

[Bobsican]

Glad this is here. I was going to bring up FFVII's (and almost by extension the entire series') baseline 6A power. As mentioned in Cloud's Bio leading to this https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...inal_Fantasy_VII_-_Scaling#Scaling_to_Summons

I'm going to go in-depth about this because this is also a sitewide problem and why I detest this website.

First off, the numbers indicated do not constitute canon of those games. It's simply to show which entry in series they showed up in (as dated to the Dissidia game). Every Ifrit and every Summon is different. If THIS Ifrit can potentially "turn the world to ash", cool, it doesn't mean they all can. But let's address that too.

It is ridiculous to always attribute the maximum power a scaled opponent can dish out to their scaled target's baseline. Bahamut Fury can destroy the moon, alright cool that's a feat we can calc but he doesn't do that all the time. Do his claw swipes scale to his ability to destroy the Moon? Unlikely or he wouldn't bother doing one or the other, he'd default to the best tactic available (unless it was somehow in his personality to get bored of doing the most effective tactic). That doesn't mean we can't scale someone's durability to the attack, sure, because we shouldn't pretend they wouldn't use it at least once unless WoG maybe says "that attack didn't happen we put it in for flair" or some shizz. So yeah, Zack tanked Bahamut's Moon Buster. Sweet. This is a very powerful move we know he is capable of and we can rightly assume he used it. We'll come back to FURY.

Ifrit can turn the world to ash. Can. But does he? He never does. Why? "Because there'd be no game, lol?" Well, probably, but if he never does he never does. If he's holding back because he doesn't want to murder everything, fine, but we can only take what we have. Ifrit doesn't turn the world to ash and thus characters cannot scale from it. If he's holding back, he's holding back. It's really as simple as that. You can't scale simply from statements. I mean, we can reasonably believe Cell when he says he can destroy the Solar system, he's way above Frieza who is verifiably dwarf star. But we have nothing for Ifrit, he CANNOT BE VERIFIED. There is no backup. If he throws a simple fireball is that the fireball that "turns the world to ash"? Eh, probably, uh, no. So whatever he attacks you with if it's not FURY'S MOON BUSTER level of verification, it means that he wasn't using that level of power against them, even if he could.

Character's scaling to FURY's speed. It's entirely based off FURY's Moon buster cinematic which is erroneous. Zack never reacts to or dodges the attack. He does nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's a completely erroneous scaling. Also, travel speed is not what I like to call "combat speed". Or reaction speed. FURY doesn't swipe his claws at the speed he moves his entire body, ergo if Zack is dodging his swipes, it doesn't make him scale to FURY's travel speed. One might say it takes more effort to move your entire body than it does your arms and I would remind you there's different locomotion/thrust at play. If rocket ships had arms they probably wouldn't move with the same force or speed as the thrusters moving them in to space. Just a hunch.

There is no proof a summon created their space. It is just as likely it is simply another dimension (same goes for Supernova btw). For all we know all the summons share the same dimension which means something else likely created it (there's some precedence for this in the franchise but I'm not attempting to make a strong argument for that here, I am making an argument that what we have is ambiguous at best and there's more evidence AGAINST them creating their own space than there is FOR. Yes, I read at least some interviews). Furthermore the creation of a dimension and scaling it's power via the sustaining principle is non-applicable to combat. If an entity has to sustain a space then that power is in reserve and can't be used for combat and thus can't be used as part of the scaling force the scaled target can be applied to. You, at least, have to argue the space was created and requires no method of active sustainment by the creator and isn't continuously taxing them in any way.

Just because Red XIII's Stardust Ray looks like a cosmic attack doesn't mean it is. I point to Goku's Tournament of Power "Galaxy" visual as similarity.

I also wrote this awhile back on why creation powers do not equal destructive power.

Creation isn't simply an equation of energy. You need more specifics on that. If you say, "This character can just create a moon and drop it on them therefore they have moon level power." Is too reductive. It takes away from much of what is going on and borders, genuinely, on NLF.

Coming back to ground level and FF and VII, I can't really go any further because all the characters are essentially scaled off Ifrit and FURY atm. One was even recursively so some years back. Until this particular issue is solved there's no more to discuss.

Uh... I think you jumped to conclusions, this thread isn't going to actually change the 2-A ratings beyond simply removing a misleading part that has no real effect besides that.

I'd keep that for another thread as it's misleading, plus several of those arguments sound sus to say the least.

 

[Zencha9]

Lmao actually got baited
Anyways i agree

 

[Theglassman12]

the at least removal seems fine to me.

 

[Bobsican]

I think that'd be enought support from users and knowledgeable staff alike to proceed with the revision.

 

[Jibz]

I'm going to go in-depth about this because this is also a sitewide problem and why I detest this website.

based, this website sucks huge ass.

 

[Rune_Katashima]

Uh... I think you jumped to conclusions, this thread isn't going to actually change the 2-A ratings beyond simply removing a misleading part that has no real effect besides that.

I'd keep that for another thread as it's misleading, plus several of those arguments sound sus to say the least.

Nah, I read the whole post. I know what it's for. I'm just piggybacking because it also applies to the whole series as well and I don't see a reason to make a separate thread. Why not just resolve everything here. Plus, I'm kind of gauging sentiment anyway.

 

[Bobsican]

Because it deals with an entirely different topic that's only related by being about the same verse in question, which compromises an already accepted revision for another one that has no weight to it to begin with.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rune_Katashima none of what you're arguing is remotely on topic to what's being discussed right now. Make a separate CRT if you wanna downgrade the characters ratings.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

 

[Zencha9]

 

[KLOL506]

I also wrote this awhile back on why creation powers do not equal destructive power.

If you or I were to build a house, first off, using any tools is fine because equipment is valid on a character page and using any resources around to
build the house doesn't waylay my argument, because to argue that anyone made a creation without resources is to argue that they have *infinite
potential for creation*. You are essentially arguing, visa vie, they have infinite power. Without reserve. So if we can agree that's not the case, then
I can build my building. How long does this take me? Months? Years? How much effort? How much resources? If I can attack a wall with a sledgehammer but
not be considered wall level because it takes me half an hour and many strikes, then is a creature who can create A space the same fundamental power
level as the space created? Do you know the time, effort, and resources that went in to it's creation? Because if not, you can't use it. If they made it
quickly, say within a minute or so, then sure. By all means, but if you don't have at least one of the above measures, then it can't be measured as a feat

Creation isn't simply an equation of energy. You need more specifics on that. If you say, "This character can just create a moon and drop it on them therefore they have moon level power." Is too reductive. It takes away from much of what is going on and borders, genuinely, on NLF.

Sorry pal, this is the one part where we say no. We've had multiple CRTs qualifying creation feats to be scalable to AP. Here, here and here. Even if you personally disagree, these are our rules now and I expect you to stick to them.

Also your other arguments seem flawed from a glance based on the whole gameplay mechanics issue that are even older than when I joined the wiki and I doubt putting them in another CRT will do little to nothing to change the ratings. So... yeah. There you have it. Might as well stop derailing any further from this point onwards.

 

[NIK_FARIS]

Agree

 

[Bobsican]

I think the revision should be applicable now at this point.

 

[Bobsican]

Bumping to remind this may be yet to be done.

 

[Jibz]

You got two staff acceptances, with one being administrator, and then a whole bunch of user acceptances. Seems fine to add to me.

 

[Bobsican]

Went ahead and did a rough list with DPL of which pages require changes

 

[azontr]

Went ahead and did a rough list with DPL of which pages require changes

Deadass didn't know FF had that many 2-A's-

 

[Shmooply]

Deadass didn't know FF had that many 2-A's-

Dissidia scaling go BRRRRRR-