- 3,132
- 1,828
Well, holy crap it's actually done. So I made this blog here and here to try to explain the stats in detail and many topics related to them. My idea is to use it to better organize the profiles. No major changes or anything (@Comicgyal and @XXKINGXX69 already brought that up), but there's quite a bit I think we could clean up and update.
Strap on, this is a lot.
First of all, thanks to the following people (I know regular users can't tag, don't worry):
@Comicgyal for bringing up the Tactics crossover upgrade in a proper CRT.
@XXKINGXX69 for the upgrade to Gilgamesh which is the major change here.
@Dalesean027 thanks my man, your calcs are what made possible to bring this to a finish. Sonic supporters I've met on this site have are some pretty great people. And also with thanks for your patience with the amount of requests I made. You rock.
@Migue79 for helping out with evaluating some calcs and for also putting up with my pestering.
@KLOL506 okay, for him it was Tuesday of another jerk in the wiki bothering him with calcs, but his input and corrections allowed to get Dale's calcs through.
I. Overal Tiers:
1. Crossover Scaling with Final Fantasy Tactics (2-A):
The major addition here is a revision to the addition made by @Comicgyal, that would be the 2-C scaling from Cloud being sent to Ivalice in Final Fantasy Tactics. As mentioned in @XXKINGXX69's CRT, essentially how Gilgamesh scales. Here is the full explanation, but to summarize:
I think, given how roundabout Cloud's scaling is, we should keep the original feats from Final Fantasy VII as well. Unlike Vaan and Balthier who directly fought Gilgamesh, or Luso who at least scales to in his own game, Cloud scales in a different game, to people to fought Gil in another game. This doesn't make it less valid, but much less straightforward so I think the original feats to explain the game's own standing should also be considered, given how out of its own lore the Final Fantasy Tactics crossover is.
Essentially something like: Multi-Galaxy level (punched Sephiroth in the ear), likely Multiverse level+ (Fought alongside Balthier whom had previously defeated Gilgamesh)
2. Reorganizing the original Final Fantasy VII keys:
First of all, get rid of the Midgar key. Honestly, it's pretty redundant and is just a less haxed version of the second key. Initially it had its gimmick when the characters were 9-A there, but now given they all scale to High 6-A right away it has no real point. Which bring to the next point, reorganize the keys of the original game a bit. Right now they are Midgar | Post Midgar up to Whirlwind Maze (when Sephiroth summons Meteor) | Post Whirlwind Maze to Final Battle. I think it's just easier to go for Disc 1 (Midgar to Aerith's death, which also makes Aerith's tiering less arbitrary) | Disc 2 (Post Aerith's death up to Midgar Raid) | Disc 3 (Final Battle with Sephiroth). Also, instead of trying to track the scaling through the discs and the awkward jumps, simply go for the power they had at the end of each one: High 6-A for Disc 1, 4-A for Disc 2 and 3-B for Disc 3, applying the 2-A of scaling in Final Fantasy Tactics accordingly. This only applies to the original game, Remake will still have a key for the Midgar section as it corresponds to the first chapter of the new story, so it will go something like Remake | Rebirth | Part 3.
3. Adding a couple of new keys for Crisis Core (and Jenova):
Aside the new one proposed by @HST_Master, it would be adding the following (new keys in bold):
The explanations for the scaling are in the "Characters who scale" section for each tier in the blog. Except for Zack's World of Final Fantasy key, which was proposed recently. But essentially:
II. Stats Adjustments:
1. Attack Potency:
2. Durability and Speed:
Okay, this may be a more complicated, but to justify Immesurable Speed the proof is actually...
...absolutely nothing, lol
No changes, here. Moving on.
3. Lifting Strength:
@Dalesean027 being an MVP again, provided with a proper calcs.
III. Explanations:
As you could see, with the blogs I went out of my way to try to explain everything related to scaling and tiering in the games. The idea was to help organize the explanations in the profiles so they are as clear as possible. What I had in mind is when detailing the tiers and such, link directly to the section of the blog where it's explained and simply elaborate in the profile of how the character scales, as the blog takes care of explaining the feat or related lore. If in-depth explanations are required, those can be linked as well as needed.
Using Cloud as an example, whose AP section is the wordiest one right now:
Tier: 9-B+, High 6-A with Heightened Emotions, possibly higher with Weaponry | At least High 6-A, likely higher, even higher with Limit Breaks | 4-A, likely 2-A, higher with Limit Breaks | 3-B, likely 2-A, higher with Limit Breaks | 3-B, likely 2-A, far higher with Limit Breaks | 2-A, far higher with Limit Breaks
Attack Potency: Wall level+, (Compares to 1st Avalanche's troops), Multi-Continent level with Heightened Emotions (Defeated 1st Ver. Ravens, comparable to 3rd Class SOLDIER, whom in large groups could pose a challenge to Cloud during the events of Midgar), possibly higher with Weaponry (Shinra's weapons are designed to be effective against their own superhuman units) | At least Multi-Continent level, likely higher (Commands Summons ranging from Ifrit and Shiva to those much stronger like Bahamut. On the level of Vincent Valentine, whom effortessly beat 3rd. Ver. Ravens, superior to those that could one-shot 2nd Class SOLDIER, who compare to 2nd Class Zack Fair when he defeated Ifrit), even higher with Limit Breaks (Limit Breaks are stated to reach power far above the user's regular capabilities) | Multi-Solar System level (Compares to Red XIII and commands Bahamut ZERO. Became far stronger after restoring his true self, and could easily defeat entire groups of 1st Class SOLDIER and even the Weapons. The former compare to a newly promoted Zack Fair, who easily defeated Bahamut Fury, and the latter being above Zirconiade, a far stronger Summon, behind only the Knights of the Round), likely Multiverse level+ (When transported to Ivalice, fought in Ramza Beoulve's army alongside Balthier as an equal, whom had previously defeated Gilgamesh. Became much stronger after returning to the Planet and restoring his true self), higher with Limit Breaks | Multi-Galaxy level (Commands the Knights of the Round), likely Multiverse level+ (Far stronger than before), higher with Limit Breaks | Multi-Galaxy level, likely Multiverse level+ (Far more powerful than before. Despite being weakened by Geostigma, he could hold his own against the three Remnants of Sephiroth, among whom Kadaj was as strong as Sephiroth in the original game. Once healed, Cloud easily defeated him), far higher with Limit Breaks (His Limit Breaks have become strong enough that even mid-level ones can one-shot enemies that are unaffected his regular attacks) | Multiverse level+ (Draws power from the gods of the cycle, putting him on par with the Warriors of Materia and far above the likes of Neo Exdeath and Enuo. Participated in the defeat of Shinryu), far higher with Limit Breaks
Keys: Prequel Era | Disc 1 | Disc 2 | Disc 3 | Advent Children Onwards | Dissidia
As you can see, it's still pretty clogged, but nowhere near as much as before (had to rewritte frig knows how many times this to trim it down as much as possible). The idea is: explain how the character scales to whoever performed the feat. If they don't scale directly, explain how the scale to the character that does and then how said characters scales to the feat character. This allows to avoid having to navigate several profiles to find the feat (simply go to the linked section of the blog) or vague stuff such as:
Bill: City level (Beat Jill) -> Jill: City level (Held her own against phil) -> Phil: City level (Is the strongest karateman) -> Yadda yadda
Other important information (you can see it all in the index, as well):
In the calcs section there's a minor detail we should fix, Typhon's Disintegration is listed within Final Fantasy VI's feats, but while Typhon debuted in that game, the attack sequence is from Final Fantasy VII. Similarly, Ifrit being able to reduce the world to ashes is listed in Final Fantasy VII's section, but it comes from Dissidia and it refers to Ifrit in general, so methinks it should be moved to Final Fantasy III (Ifrit's debut game).
Overall Summary of proposed changes:
Strap on, this is a lot.
First of all, thanks to the following people (I know regular users can't tag, don't worry):
@Comicgyal for bringing up the Tactics crossover upgrade in a proper CRT.
@XXKINGXX69 for the upgrade to Gilgamesh which is the major change here.
@Dalesean027 thanks my man, your calcs are what made possible to bring this to a finish. Sonic supporters I've met on this site have are some pretty great people. And also with thanks for your patience with the amount of requests I made. You rock.
@Migue79 for helping out with evaluating some calcs and for also putting up with my pestering.
@KLOL506 okay, for him it was Tuesday of another jerk in the wiki bothering him with calcs, but his input and corrections allowed to get Dale's calcs through.
I. Overal Tiers:
1. Crossover Scaling with Final Fantasy Tactics (2-A):
The major addition here is a revision to the addition made by @Comicgyal, that would be the 2-C scaling from Cloud being sent to Ivalice in Final Fantasy Tactics. As mentioned in @XXKINGXX69's CRT, essentially how Gilgamesh scales. Here is the full explanation, but to summarize:
- The Void is a multiversal force. Not only the Final Fantasy worlds are infinite, some of them such as the setting of Final Fantasy Chronicles: Ring of Fates branch into infinite parallel worlds. And to my understanding, so is the setting of World of Final Fantasy.
- Bartz, Lenna, Faris and Krile are strong enough to defeat Neo Exdeath and Enuo who controlled the Void, scaling all of them to 2-A.
- Gilgamesh scales to the endgame party, as little before they fought Neo Exdeath he briefly fought them and, if certain conditions are met during the game, he will jump in to help them against the Necrophobe, an optional boss right before Exdeath. So he's obviously 2-A as well.
- After these events, Gilgamesh wanders the Rift and ends up in various Final Fantasy worlds, which including Ivalice.
- In Final Fantasy XII Gilgamesh fights and is defeated by Vaan, Balthier and the party. Later, in Final Fantasy XII: Revenant Wings, he is fought again and defeated, with Vaan even recruiting him as a Summon (and according to Final Fantasy lore, you have a Summon you scale to it). For this reason Vaan and Balthier scale to Gilgamesh.
- Additionally, in Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift, Vaan and Penelo appear, already as full fledged Sky Pirates and Vaan is rescued and then both teams up with the main character Luso.
- As previously explained in @Comicgyal CRT, they all appear in Final Fantasy Tactics: War of the Lions, with Luso even being a mandatory encounter and fight alongside Ramza.
- Cloud can also be recruited in Final Fantasy Tactics, with his appearance actually being explained and justified in detail.
- So Luso, Ramza and Cloud scale to Balthier who defeated Gilgamesh, making them 2-A.
I think, given how roundabout Cloud's scaling is, we should keep the original feats from Final Fantasy VII as well. Unlike Vaan and Balthier who directly fought Gilgamesh, or Luso who at least scales to in his own game, Cloud scales in a different game, to people to fought Gil in another game. This doesn't make it less valid, but much less straightforward so I think the original feats to explain the game's own standing should also be considered, given how out of its own lore the Final Fantasy Tactics crossover is.
Essentially something like: Multi-Galaxy level (punched Sephiroth in the ear), likely Multiverse level+ (Fought alongside Balthier whom had previously defeated Gilgamesh)
2. Reorganizing the original Final Fantasy VII keys:
First of all, get rid of the Midgar key. Honestly, it's pretty redundant and is just a less haxed version of the second key. Initially it had its gimmick when the characters were 9-A there, but now given they all scale to High 6-A right away it has no real point. Which bring to the next point, reorganize the keys of the original game a bit. Right now they are Midgar | Post Midgar up to Whirlwind Maze (when Sephiroth summons Meteor) | Post Whirlwind Maze to Final Battle. I think it's just easier to go for Disc 1 (Midgar to Aerith's death, which also makes Aerith's tiering less arbitrary) | Disc 2 (Post Aerith's death up to Midgar Raid) | Disc 3 (Final Battle with Sephiroth). Also, instead of trying to track the scaling through the discs and the awkward jumps, simply go for the power they had at the end of each one: High 6-A for Disc 1, 4-A for Disc 2 and 3-B for Disc 3, applying the 2-A of scaling in Final Fantasy Tactics accordingly. This only applies to the original game, Remake will still have a key for the Midgar section as it corresponds to the first chapter of the new story, so it will go something like Remake | Rebirth | Part 3.
3. Adding a couple of new keys for Crisis Core (and Jenova):
Aside the new one proposed by @HST_Master, it would be adding the following (new keys in bold):
- Zack Fair: SOLDIER 2nd Class | SOLDIER 1st Class | World of Final Fantasy | Dissidia -> High 6-A | 4-A | 2-A | 2-A
- Genesis Rhapsodos: Prime Condition | Degrading | Genesis Avatar | G-Monsters -> 4-A | 4-A | 4-A | At most 4-A
- Jenova: Original Body | BIRTH and LIFE | DEATH | SYNTHESIS | Post Original Game -> 4-A | High 6-A | 4-A | 3-B | Unknown
The explanations for the scaling are in the "Characters who scale" section for each tier in the blog. Except for Zack's World of Final Fantasy key, which was proposed recently. But essentially:
- Zack (SOLDIER 2nd Class): Defeated Ifrit and Bahamut.
- Genesis (Prime Condition): Pushed a casual Sephiroth back and made him fight more seriously. Gave endgame Zack one of his toughest fights after he had become far stronger since defeating Bahamut Fury.
- Genesis (Degrading): Despite the degradation of his body, he managed to give a rather recently promoted to SOLDIER 1st Class Zack a close fight.
- G-Monsters (monsters the Genesis Avatar summons in battle): Can effectively inflict minor damage and inconvenience Zack in battle and be dangerous in large numbers.
- Jenova (Original Body): Was such a threat to the Planet that the creations of the 8 Weapons was deemed necessary to stop her. Each Weapon is stronger than Zirconiade, a Summon vastly above Bahamut ZERO.
- Jenova (BIRTH and LIFE): Matched the party who controlled Summons such as Ifrit and Bahamut.
- Jenova (DEATH): Matched the party, among whom was Red XIII and whom controlled Summons on the level of Bahamut ZERO
- Additionally, I have a proposal for Minerva's profile (needs updating to current tiering but the profile is useable as it is), and Angeal's tiering will be updated.
II. Stats Adjustments:
1. Attack Potency:
- Thanks to @Dalesean027, finally got a proper calc for the bottom tiers feat of shattering a statue, though only Cloud has a profile and key that scales to it. It upgrades from Wall level to Wall level+ with 12,109.5 Kilojoules or 0.0028942399618 Tons.
- Also thanks to @Dalesean027, got a calc for the Multi-Galaxy level tier. No changes here, but they explicitly stand at 947.5214 YottaFoe.
- Skimming through some old stuff I had I found I had a calc (not made by me, just compiled) that didn't really scale to anybody, but with recent lore revelations from Remake, it could be applied to the low-tiers. Essentially, when Jenova arrived at the Planet, the meteor strike had a power of 12.141 Exatons. Shiva went and froze the impact zone and the whole continent became the game's polar lands. Now, Before Crisis reveals that Summons are part of the Planet's ecosystem and their roles are in the benefit of the balance of nature (Zirconiade's destruction was such an upset to nature that the Planet sent a Weapon to destroy the threat that killed the Summon), so Shiva going to the impact zone is because the Planet deemed Shiva was good enough to deal with the wound and whatever may have caused it so she was sent there. So while Shiva by no means scales to Jenova herself (for whom the Planet decided to create the 8 Weapons), she does scale to the meteor impact itself, and by extension all low-tier Summons and those that scale to them. Essentially, the low-tiers remain in Multi-Continent level, but go from 1 Exaton from Ifrit being able to turn the world to ashes to 12.141 Exatons. Full explanation here.
- Regarding the mid-tiers, those at Multi-Solar System level, I've seen people that put Jenova at 8x the power of a single Weapon given she led to the creation of the eight of them. If we accepted that, how much above the Starry Sky feat would she and other characters scale? I mean, a single Weapon is far, far above Bahamut ZERO, who is the basest character with the starry sky feat.
- A minor case that doesn't affect anybody anymore in Final Fantasy VII, but may affect Final Fantasy VI and other games: Typhon's Disintegration was re-calced (previous calc here) and it went from 1.019 Tenatons to 795.910803059 Ninatons, still within High 5-A, however.
2. Durability and Speed:
Okay, this may be a more complicated, but to justify Immesurable Speed the proof is actually...
...absolutely nothing, lol
No changes, here. Moving on.
3. Lifting Strength:
@Dalesean027 being an MVP again, provided with a proper calcs.
- For the bottom tiers, Barret catching falling boulder was calced at Class 10 with 7,167.69 kg. Only scales to one of Cloud's keys but it corrected it from Class 25 without calc.
- The only big change here, Typhon's Disintegration turning the Planet upside down was calced at Stellar with 7.321242738E+30 kgf. Due to Typhon's position as a high-tier Summon below Bahamut ZERO and Bahamut Fury all mid-tiers scale from him. And, all in all, everyone in any game who scales to Typhon scales to that as well such as the Final Fantasy VI cast.
III. Explanations:
As you could see, with the blogs I went out of my way to try to explain everything related to scaling and tiering in the games. The idea was to help organize the explanations in the profiles so they are as clear as possible. What I had in mind is when detailing the tiers and such, link directly to the section of the blog where it's explained and simply elaborate in the profile of how the character scales, as the blog takes care of explaining the feat or related lore. If in-depth explanations are required, those can be linked as well as needed.
Using Cloud as an example, whose AP section is the wordiest one right now:
Tier: 9-B+, High 6-A with Heightened Emotions, possibly higher with Weaponry | At least High 6-A, likely higher, even higher with Limit Breaks | 4-A, likely 2-A, higher with Limit Breaks | 3-B, likely 2-A, higher with Limit Breaks | 3-B, likely 2-A, far higher with Limit Breaks | 2-A, far higher with Limit Breaks
Attack Potency: Wall level+, (Compares to 1st Avalanche's troops), Multi-Continent level with Heightened Emotions (Defeated 1st Ver. Ravens, comparable to 3rd Class SOLDIER, whom in large groups could pose a challenge to Cloud during the events of Midgar), possibly higher with Weaponry (Shinra's weapons are designed to be effective against their own superhuman units) | At least Multi-Continent level, likely higher (Commands Summons ranging from Ifrit and Shiva to those much stronger like Bahamut. On the level of Vincent Valentine, whom effortessly beat 3rd. Ver. Ravens, superior to those that could one-shot 2nd Class SOLDIER, who compare to 2nd Class Zack Fair when he defeated Ifrit), even higher with Limit Breaks (Limit Breaks are stated to reach power far above the user's regular capabilities) | Multi-Solar System level (Compares to Red XIII and commands Bahamut ZERO. Became far stronger after restoring his true self, and could easily defeat entire groups of 1st Class SOLDIER and even the Weapons. The former compare to a newly promoted Zack Fair, who easily defeated Bahamut Fury, and the latter being above Zirconiade, a far stronger Summon, behind only the Knights of the Round), likely Multiverse level+ (When transported to Ivalice, fought in Ramza Beoulve's army alongside Balthier as an equal, whom had previously defeated Gilgamesh. Became much stronger after returning to the Planet and restoring his true self), higher with Limit Breaks | Multi-Galaxy level (Commands the Knights of the Round), likely Multiverse level+ (Far stronger than before), higher with Limit Breaks | Multi-Galaxy level, likely Multiverse level+ (Far more powerful than before. Despite being weakened by Geostigma, he could hold his own against the three Remnants of Sephiroth, among whom Kadaj was as strong as Sephiroth in the original game. Once healed, Cloud easily defeated him), far higher with Limit Breaks (His Limit Breaks have become strong enough that even mid-level ones can one-shot enemies that are unaffected his regular attacks) | Multiverse level+ (Draws power from the gods of the cycle, putting him on par with the Warriors of Materia and far above the likes of Neo Exdeath and Enuo. Participated in the defeat of Shinryu), far higher with Limit Breaks
Keys: Prequel Era | Disc 1 | Disc 2 | Disc 3 | Advent Children Onwards | Dissidia
As you can see, it's still pretty clogged, but nowhere near as much as before (had to rewritte frig knows how many times this to trim it down as much as possible). The idea is: explain how the character scales to whoever performed the feat. If they don't scale directly, explain how the scale to the character that does and then how said characters scales to the feat character. This allows to avoid having to navigate several profiles to find the feat (simply go to the linked section of the blog) or vague stuff such as:
Bill: City level (Beat Jill) -> Jill: City level (Held her own against phil) -> Phil: City level (Is the strongest karateman) -> Yadda yadda
Other important information (you can see it all in the index, as well):
- Why characters scale to their Summons through the series. Here.
- The explanation of the power of Shinra's weaponry. Here.
- Elaboration on Summons sustaining dimensions. Here.
- Elaborating on Jenova's scaling. Here.
- Full explanation on how Spirit Energy affects power. Here.
- Advent Children Sephiroth and Remake Sephiroth are not the same person. Here.
- Additional feats. Here.
In the calcs section there's a minor detail we should fix, Typhon's Disintegration is listed within Final Fantasy VI's feats, but while Typhon debuted in that game, the attack sequence is from Final Fantasy VII. Similarly, Ifrit being able to reduce the world to ashes is listed in Final Fantasy VII's section, but it comes from Dissidia and it refers to Ifrit in general, so methinks it should be moved to Final Fantasy III (Ifrit's debut game).
Overall Summary of proposed changes:
Huge convoluted ass blog finally gets public.- Remove the Midgar key and reorganize the current one according to the original game's discs (prequels and sequels remain the same).
- Upgrade Cloud's 2-C scaling to Final Fantasy Tactics to 2-A but also keep the feats of the original game. Leaving it as: 3-B, likely 2-A, for example.
- All mid-tiers and above now scale to Typhon's Lifting Strength, putting them in Stellar range.
- Typhon's Disintegration goes from 1 Tenaton to 795 Ninaton, still within High 5-A. Doesn't affect Final Fantasy VII, but may affect other entries.
- Low-tiers go from 1 Exaton to 12 Exaton if its deemed acceptable.
- Bottom tiers get their Lifting Strength downgraded from Class 25 to Class 10, but their AP goes from Wall level to Wall level+
- Add a SOLDIER 2nd Class key for Zack at High 6-A for defeating Ifrit.
- Add a Prime Condition, Degrading and Summoned G-Monsteters keys for Genesis. All at 4-A.
- Divide Jenova's keys in Original Body, BIRTH and Life, DEATH, SYNTHESIS and Post-Game.
- All feats have proper calcs now.
Last edited: