LOL Dark Star / Cosmic Court Downgrade

[RegisNex1232]

It is completed though Weekly. Or as complete as something like this can be.

There's no harm in asking but here it's clearly just a way of stonewalling to prevent changes. I don't think that's acceptable on this wiki.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

When literally the entire LoL lore and revision team disagrees with the proposed changes it is not completed

 

[RegisNex1232]

That's... not how it works though. People have seen it and accepted it more than people have disagreed. Ant has said ok, whether or not you care for how much his thoughts matter. Like this isn't something new for you, and I'm not seeing why you haven't really changed how you deal with not being accepted over things like this.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes]

Quotations are always a finnicky source. Almost all of Monarch's points makes me side with him. I'm afraid I'm tossing in my vote for the downgrade as well.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'd like to reiterate I still agree with Monarch, I think his interpertation of the quotes and etc make sense.

I don't remember, were those missing forum quotes ever recovered?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Weekly, you'll gain nothing from this. Just stop, please, you're not only making yourself look bad, but the rest of the staff.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Read the entire thread, and am in agreement with Monarch.

 

[RegisNex1232]

I'd like to reiterate I still agree with Monarch, I think his interpertation of the quotes and etc make sense.

I don't remember, were those missing forum quotes ever recovered?

I don't think so? Maybe a Reddit search might turn up something.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

So I've finished reading and I agree with Monarch here.

 

[I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die]

I agree with Monarch as well.

Sorry Weekley

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

Monarch's arguments are a lot stronger, I agree with him.

 

[Gun_Slave_Unit]

if an infinite universe is destroyed in a finite amount of time, how much was destroyed when the guy was halfway through and how much would be left? genuine curiousity after skimming the thread

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Infinite

Its a realm of spatially infinite size, a 3-C destroying it, hell even a group of 3-Cs destroying it, would require infinite speed

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The Dark Star causing the singularity would not though. Nor would crossing finite distances to feed the Dark Star bits of the universe until it powers up enough to cause the singularity.

You're making a lot of assumptions based on Thresh's quote that aren't supported by the rest of what we see.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Show where it was stated that the Dark Star itself ate the void. Please.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Been following since the thread started, agree with Monarch here.

Weekly, I would advise not throwing a tantrum over every little downgrade for any verse you like.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Show where it was stated that the Dark Star itself ate the void. Please.

I've already shown an abundance of evidence as to Thresh's methods involving feeding celestial objects to the Dark Star until it causes the singularity and sucks in the rest of the universe. I refuse to stall this further by playing along with you.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You have shown no such evidence, and do you know why? Because if the Dark Star ate the Void Thresh would be dead as he would have actively killed himself by throwing himself into the void when the Dark Star ate the universe. But he's still alive and refers to the Void as something he did himself. So what proof do you have that it was the Dark Star that ate the void?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I have, and you can either look for it yourself or continue to ignore it. Either way, I refuse to play along with your stonewalling. As for your second point, Thresh will only throw himself into the Dark Star when all of existence is gone. The void is not all of existence, so he would not throw himself into it when the Void alone is eaten.

 

[Gun_Slave_Unit]

if an infinite amount was left after he was halfway through, then how'd he ever destroy it? the amount he destroyed during the first half times 2 isn't going to equal infinity. and if he had already destroyed an infinite amount during the first half, then why'd he need to keep going for the second?

how does he ever end up destroying the whole thing?

let's say bob destroyed an infinite sized realm in 5 seconds. by your own word he would've destroyed an infinite amount of space on his 3 seconds mark but he still left an infinite amount of space that he needs to bust on his remaining 2 seconds

seems pretty contradictory. also i don't really see why this would constitute as a speed feat more than it's an attack potency kind of thing

 

[RegisNex1232]

So is there a list of finalized changes, Monarch?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

"A cosmic nightmare who worships the all-consuming Dark Star, Thresh vows to feed the whole of existence to his "god" until all matter, time, and thought are erased. His work will be complete when nothing remains, freeing him to finally leap into the singularity and become one with the end of the universe."

No, he will throw himself into the end of the universe, which even by your own arguments is just the universe ending.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Gun Infinite speed, the same way an 8-C can destroy a planet given enough time, just over an infinitely large scale. They destroyed a realm of infinite size in a finite amount of time. Half of infinity is still infinity.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

So is there a list of finalized changes, Monarch?

The target profiles will have their AP changed to 3-C with the justification of "comparable to other Dark Stars, such as Thresh who's head is a galaxy of unknown size, Karma who has devoured entire galactic systems, and Dark Cosmic Lux who can destroy galaxies with a thought"

Their speeds will be changed to MFTL+

There should also be some investigation into their powers and abilities. The Dark Stars can probably keep the void resistances, as even if they didn't destroy it themselves they would still have been in it feeding things to the Dark Star, but I don't see where the Cosmic Court's resistances to the void stuff come from.

Their higher dimensional manipulation and existence should be discussed as well, as the only evidence of that comes from The Lure's quote which is only states "another" spatial dimension, and may or may not qualify for what we list as "Higher Dimensional Existence". It certainly doesn't qualify for some of the applications listed there.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

"A cosmic nightmare who worships the all-consuming Dark Star, Thresh vows to feed the whole of existence to his "god" until all matter, time, and thought are erased. His work will be complete when nothing remains, freeing him to finally leap into the singularity and become one with the end of the universe."
No, he will throw himself into the end of the universe, which even by your own arguments is just the universe ending.

Let me bold the bit you should be focusing on.

 

[Gun_Slave_Unit]

that doesn't really fly. a planet is a finite sized object so a sufficiently strong individual can eventually bust it given enough time and there would be no contradiction happening. the case with infinite sized thing doesn't work the same precisely because it's infinite sized. you don't eventually destroy infinite sized stuff bit by bit because that'll warrant the question i post above

if an infinite something is destroyed in a finite amount of time, how much was destroyed when the guy was halfway through and how much would be left?

which then lead to a logical error somewhere along the way

edit: this whole "destroying infinite within finite time" being used as a speed rating justification honestly just feels pretty weird tbh

 

[WeeklyBattles]

They did destroy the Void, you have not proven that they did not

The Cosmic Court has fought the Void so yes they get resistances

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

They did destroy the Void, you have not proven that they did not

I have presented extremely strong evidence pointing towards an alternate method that is more consistent with their other showings than just "swallowed it whole in one gulp".

 

[WeeklyBattles]

@Gun Speed: (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, travel anywhere instantly, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time.)

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I have presented extremely strong evidence pointing towards an alternate method that is more consistent with their other showings than just "swallowed it whole in one gulp".

I didnt say they swallowed it whole in one gulp though? Even if it were destroyed over time thats still a realm of infinite siz they destroyed in a finite timespan.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Which is logically impossible, as Gun Slave has pointed out. You cannot destroy something infinite by only destroying one finite amout of it after another.

So we either go for your unsupported logically impossible interpretation, or we go with my logical, founded, context-considering interpretation.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

You can if you have infinite speed though

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Infinity - 1 is still infinity

Regardless of how many times you subtract one from it, or how fast you do it.

Either you subtract infinity all at once, or you still end up with infinity.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Correct, hence why they have infinite speed, applying 3-C force over a realm of infinite size, destroying it in a finite timeframe

 

[RegisNex1232]

I guess then we can change the confirmed stuff now.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

That doesn't work. Regardless of how fast they would be doing it, something that is infinite could not be destroyed by removing finite parts of it. They destroy one thing, and then there's still an infinite amount of it left over. Even if they move at infinite speed, that still applies. Regardless of how many things they individually applied 3-C force to, there would still be infinity left over.

This argument is meaningless anyway. The Dark Stars and the Cosmic Court have clearly shown non-infinite speeds in many other instances, and the Dark Star's method of destroying universes is proven to be that they feed stuff to the Dark Star until it causes the singularity and sucks in the rest of the universe. That alone provides more evidence towards finite speed than your extrapolation to get infinite.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

That does work actually. Thyre removing infinite parts of it, not finite parts. There would not be infinite parts left over because thyre doing it infinitely fast.

All characters with infinite and immeasurable feats have shown non-infinite and non-immeasurable feats. That is not evidence to make them not infinite/not immasurable.

 

[StrongClick]

Correct, hence why they have infinite speed, applying 3-C force over a realm of infinite size, destroying it in a finite timeframe

This doesn't make much sense. You can't destroy something infinite, piece by piece finitely regardless of how 'fast' you destroyed each piece.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But they don't destroy infinite parts. This has been shown already. They feed the Dark Star finite parts until it causes the singularity, and that is what wipes out the universe rather than the Dark Stars who only destroy parts of it.

Again, you are starting with the assumption that they are infinite and trying to say how their anti-feats don't disprove that, instead of using their feats to determine their speed. These characters have anti-feats. They have clear showings of them taking non-zero periods of time to accomplish things that they have no reason not to accomplish immediately if they were in fact capable of doing so. That they do not accomplish these things instantly shows that they are not infinite.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Oh but they do, and you still have yet to show any evidence that the Dark Star itself destroyed the Void.

I am using their feats to determine their speed. They dont have anti-feats, they have low-ends. Unless you want to argue that Karma's speed is below average human because she just floats around in space most of the time. Like i said before, every character with infinite and immeasurable speed has feats of not doing everything instantly. That does not discredit them from having that speed.

Also , they DO have reasons to not accomplish them immediately, hell Jhin even says he activly chooses to not do so even though he's entirely capable of doing everything instantly