Live a Live Tier Adjustments

[GyroNutz]

This is a fairly simple CRT that aims to adjust ratings of the Live a Live cast based on accepted calcs. The calcs are done here, thanks to Armorchompy for calcing them all.

Kung-Fu Student Splits a Stone: This happens at the end of the chapter and adds a stronger 9-A feat to the "Inheritance Chapter (Post-Training)" key. The Pre-Training key would still downscale from the other 9-A feat.

Earth-Rending Fury: The high-end was accepted, so Masaru becomes 9-A+ instead of 9-A in his first key.

O-D-O GPE: This would scale to Pogo in his first key, along with other prehistoric characters like Gori. Pogo's previous feat was based on a gas explosion, and would give heat resistance instead of durability. The would also give certain characters Class M lifting strength due to O-D-O's mass. These include:
Pogo and Zaki, for using moves that can shove O-D-O around.
Oersted (Odio key) for being superior to O-D-O, an avatar of Odio.
Masaru, since he's stated to be the physically strongest of the seven heroes (Final chapter key)
Buriki Daioh for its similar feat

Cube's Spin Drive: This would make Cube 9-A instead of 10-A in his first key. Note that the rating should still be a "likely" as Cube's battle scenario is weird to say the least, but the Final Chapter should prove that Cube can physically perform this.

Straybow Collapses a Cave Roof: This scales to Oersted in his first key, Straybow, Hash and Uranus. The feat is 1.8 tons of TNT, or 0.2 tons away from Large Building level, so Hash in his prime can upscale to High 8-C. The current High 8-C feat used, scaling to Nuggiebear's avalanches, has several problems. For one, the attack is not shown to be at the same level as an actual avalanche by a pretty wide margin, meaning the only thing that would scale it to an avalanche is the name. Secondly the calc in question isn't actually accepted. Oops. So a downgrade to 8-C+ is necessary.

Oboro-Maru Wood Recalc: DemonGodMitch never gave an accepted end for this - personally I still support Pulverization as was accepted last time, as there are no remains left of the wood in-battle and outside of it too. The recalc is only applying new destruction values. This wouldn't change Oboro's current 8-C rating if accepted, but if other ends are accepted Oboro would be downgraded to 9-A/9-A+

Final Chapter Revisions: This is less of a calc and more of a discussion me and Armorchompy had. Shaking a town or a mountain isn't a feat in itself, and both Armor and Kieran suggested using baseline values from the Earthquake Power Chart instead. I believe Magnitude 4.5 makes the most sense. By Wikipedia's definition, a magnitude 4 earthquake is " Felt by most people in the affected area. Slightly felt outside.", whereas a Magnitude 5 earthquake "Can cause damage of varying severity to poorly constructed buildings.". The earthquake in question causes violent shaking but no lasting damage to the area in question. This rating also fits in with Armorchompy's GPE calcs - characters like O-D-O and Odeo are 8-B (over 15 tons) by their mass alone.

Given this, I suggest that all characters currently rated as 7-C are downgraded to At least 8-B+ (for final chapter characters) or 8-B (for Buriki Daioh)

Speed Ratings: Using natural lightning speed shouldn't be viable without further proof that the attacks in question are natural lightning (e.g. showing the lightning coming from a cloud). This would remove the Massively Hypersonic ratings from Akira's and Oersted's first keys, along with those who scale. Akira can scale to Hypersonic via tagging military jets (or Supersonic+ which seems more accurate). and Oersted can scale to dodging electricity + sound-based attacks (Transonic/Supersonic). I don't believe this affects anyone else.

TL;DR
Apply the results of Armorchompy's calcs, which have all been accepted
Class M lifting strength scales to Pogo, Zaki along with Oersted and Masaru (second key) and Buriki Daioh.
Downgrade 7-C characters to At least 8-B+ (for final chapter characters) or 8-B (for Buriki Daioh)
Downgrade Massively Hypersonic speed to Supersonic+ (for Akira) or Transonic/Supersonic (for Oersted)
Heat resistance for Pogo (and Bel + Gori)

 

[Armorchompy]

Would it be a good idea to add an early game key for Pogo? After all O-D-O is the very final boss and I think it's reasonable to say he's a bit weaker at the beginning.

Anyway, Pogo should also get heat resist because of the explosion he tanked.

Everything else obviously looks good

 

[GyroNutz]

Added heat resistance to the OP.

I think it's reasonable to say he got stronger, though I don't think an early game key would work as there's no clear place to draw the line really. Maybe a "9-B to 8-B" tier, with the scaling I already laid out (One-shots Ku tribemen who can stomp cavemen from Pogo's tribe who can at least hunt + kill Deers, Bison and Archaeoteliums).

 

[Armorchompy]

That's true, if we can't draw a line I think it would just make the profiles a bit messier, although I don't mind the key anyway

 

[Armorchompy]

Oh by the way, the profiles have a bunch of uncredited fanart, obviously that's gotta be fixed one way or the other

 

[GyroNutz]

Fair enough

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[GyroNutz]

bump

 

[Armorchompy]

I dunno if we're gonna get much attention, LAL is a pretty obscure game after all

 

[ZetaMarishi]

While it pains me to see them nerfed, honestly this makes sense to me. Agree with the OP.

 

[Armorchompy]

Nevermind!

 

[Armorchompy]

Mitch approved the mid-end

 

[Armorchompy]

Also, here's two thoughts I had recently:

1: Even though Masaru might be the strongest character, all the heroes are more or less comparable in lifting strength, and indeed all push/turn-type moves from any character work on bosses, including the final boss. So I think Class M should scale to everyone's final chapter key, except Sundown since he uses pistols for everything.

2: Our earthquake page says this: "Shaking a minor area should not be assumed to automatically translate to an earthquake. Either a large area being shaken or evidence that we are dealing with something earthquake-like and not just some minor shaking would be needed." Live A Live mostly does that shaking effect as a way to add tension to the scene, there's no real evidence an actual earthquake is going on in the area- I think the Buriki Daioh feat MIGHT qualify but I'm iffy on it, and the Odio feat is bunk (although he'd end up upscaling from the Buriki one anyway).

 

[GyroNutz]

Mitch approved the mid-end

k, 9-A+ Oboro then

1: Even though Masaru might be the strongest character, all the heroes are more or less comparable in lifting strength, and indeed all push/turn-type moves from any character work on bosses, including the final boss. So I think Class M should scale to everyone's final chapter key, except Sundown since he uses pistols for everything.

Simply pushing a character back with Class M lifting strength isn't enough to scale, they'd need to weigh that much themselves. Masaru is the exception, since he's a master at grappling + suplex techniques and is physically the strongest. Maybe Akira powering up Buriki Daioh to move might work, but that's not exactly the same as him lifting it. Unless there's any character techniques I'm forgetting about?

2: Our earthquake page says this: "Shaking a minor area should not be assumed to automatically translate to an earthquake. Either a large area being shaken or evidence that we are dealing with something earthquake-like and not just some minor shaking would be needed." Live A Live mostly does that shaking effect as a way to add tension to the scene, there's no real evidence an actual earthquake is going on in the area- I think the Buriki Daioh feat MIGHT qualify but I'm iffy on it, and the Odio feat is bunk (although he'd end up upscaling from the Buriki one anyway).

I disagree that the shaking effect is simply to add tension - other instances where the effect is seen, physical damage is done (e.g. the first liquefied human exploding, Straybow collapsing the cave roof) or the character is enveloped in an aura, exerting their power (the two mountain shaking instances). If it's required to show the area it effects, then yeah we'd have to use the Buriki Daioh feat for the profiles (characters are seen reacting to it so it's not just shaking, and it's strongly implied to reach all the way over to the chibikko house on the other side of the town). Though I still think that Odio's and the XinShanQuan are usable as supporting feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

k, 9-A+ Oboro then


Simply pushing a character back with Class M lifting strength isn't enough to scale, they'd need to weigh that much themselves. Masaru is the exception, since he's a master at grappling + suplex techniques and is physically the strongest. Maybe Akira powering up Buriki Daioh to move might work, but that's not exactly the same as him lifting it. Unless there's any character techniques I'm forgetting about?

Meh, it's a shove, logically a boss would try to resist being flipped around or pushed back, and if the shove move works, then it'd imply they're comparable. Also, Akira powering the Buriki Daioh shouldn't scale to his normal stats at all IMO, it's like saying Cube's batteries are 9-A.

I disagree that the shaking effect is simply to add tension - other instances where the effect is seen, physical damage is done (e.g. the first liquefied human exploding, Straybow collapsing the cave roof) or the character is enveloped in an aura, exerting their power (the two mountain shaking instances). If it's required to show the area it effects, then yeah we'd have to use the Buriki Daioh feat for the profiles (characters are seen reacting to it so it's not just shaking, and it's strongly implied to reach all the way over to the chibikko house on the other side of the town). Though I still think that Odio's and the XinShanQuan are usable as supporting feats.

I mean, those cases are different, and they're specifically acknowledged by the characters and the story. However, it's possible for the shaking to be there without it being an earthquake. Fair enough on the Buriki feat, but I don't think Odio and XSQ are usable.

 

[GyroNutz]

Meh, it's a shove, logically a boss would try to resist being flipped around or pushed back, and if the shove move works, then it'd imply they're comparable. Also, Akira powering the Buriki Daioh shouldn't scale to his normal stats at all IMO, it's like saying Cube's batteries are 9-A.

I mean they could be pushed back by the power of the push, or AP. To move them they'd only have to overcome the character's weight, same sort of reason why lifting strength doesn't necessarily help resist telekinesis. And to be honest, I don't think any other character except maybe Oboro can flip characters around physically, though annoyingly I don't have my live a live save files rn to check.

I mean, those cases are different, and they're specifically acknowledged by the characters and the story. However, it's possible for the shaking to be there without it being an earthquake. Fair enough on the Buriki feat, but I don't think Odio and XSQ are usable.

I just don't like the "shaking for tension" argument when, in other instances where the shaking animation is used, there's physical shaking rather than it being a visual effect.

Aside from the above, do you think we need more support before this is applied?

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean they could be pushed back by the power of the push, or AP. To move them they'd only have to overcome the character's weight, same sort of reason why lifting strength doesn't necessarily help resist telekinesis. And to be honest, I don't think any other character except maybe Oboro can flip characters around physically, though annoyingly I don't have my live a live save files rn to check.

I mean, you can still resist a push. If you're incomparably stronger than your opponent, and they resist you trying to push them, you're not pushing them. TK takes away their leverage, but that's not the case with a push, they can just hold their ground against that, just brace yourself and push against the opponent's own push.

Oboro can indeed flip enemies (Cross Slice, Top Spin). So can the Xi Shan Quan characters (Bai Li Dao Yi Bu Jiao).

I just don't like the "shaking for tension" argument when, in other instances where the shaking animation is used, there's physical shaking rather than it being a visual effect.

Aside from the above, do you think we need more support before this is applied?

Nah, we can go ahead once we settle this, again, very obscure game.

 

[GyroNutz]

I mean, you can still resist a push. If you're incomparably stronger than your opponent, and they resist you trying to push them, you're not pushing them. TK takes away their leverage, but that's not the case with a push, they can just hold their ground against that, just brace yourself and push against the opponent's own push.

Yeah but again that's more due to AP. And technically speaking, your push resistance is proportional to your weight anyway. I really disagree with giving characters massive increases in lifting strength for pushing other characters.

Oboro can indeed flip enemies (Cross Slice, Top Spin). So can the Xi Shan Quan characters (Bai Li Dao Yi Bu Jiao).

Oboro's top spin + inheritors could be fine then I suppose. They're the only other heroes who are physical-strength oriented anyway.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah but again that's more due to AP. And technically speaking, your push resistance is proportional to your weight anyway. I really disagree with giving characters massive increases in lifting strength for pushing other characters.

Not really. Most pushing attacks are more shoves than direct blows, and we treat shoving as LS. And, sure, IRL you can only apply as much resistance as you weight more or less, but if we apply the same logic to LAL then Pogo would be flinging himself in the air before he can even budge O-D-O, so it clearly doesn't work by those rules.

 

[GyroNutz]

Not really. Most pushing attacks are more shoves than direct blows, and we treat shoving as LS.

They're attacks with the added effect of knockback, this happens in a lot of verses but doesn't tell us much at all about which character can lift more. We treat shoving masses as LS, so Pogo pushing O-D-O back, in the same vein as a character pushing a truck, is acceptable. But Odio (avatar) doesn't weigh nearly as much as O-D-O or Odeo so shoving him shouldn't be as impressive of a feat,

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes, but it literally flies, so there's no reason to assume it couldn't resist such a push. Either way I don't care too much to slow down the revision for a fairly minor thing, so I guess I'll drop it for now.

 

[GyroNutz]

Alright, I'll apply everything that's been accepted then.

 

[GyroNutz]

And done. I'll close this now.