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Yeah because none of your posts show that he is not facing him. And a panel clearly shows him facing him. I dont get what you are trying to say tbh you say look he is not facing him and I look and I see him facing him.Kepekley23 said:
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Lightspeed in Naruto!!!!!!!?
- Thread starter LordGriffin1000
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"What is proving a positive"?Rocker1189 said:
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OK from a neutral position, saying this is an outlier is just... not OK. They got brand-new forms and get a speed feat. Pretty basic higher showing for the new power tier.
Yet when Jojo goes from Peak Human to MFTL off a singular feat that is 100% not an outlier and good to use.
Yet when Jojo goes from Peak Human to MFTL off a singular feat that is 100% not an outlier and good to use.
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Can u show me how
Looking at Naruto directly.
madara is not looking at naruto
thats all
Looking at Naruto directly.
madara is not looking at naruto
thats all
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I swear that people have an image of Naruto in their head:
"Not planetary level no matter what"
"Not anything beyond sub-relavistic no matter what"
"They can never have a light speed attack because..."
So therefore anything that goes beyond their thoughts on Naruto is either an outlier or never happened.
"Not planetary level no matter what"
"Not anything beyond sub-relavistic no matter what"
"They can never have a light speed attack because..."
So therefore anything that goes beyond their thoughts on Naruto is either an outlier or never happened.
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what i said, such as databooks, senjutsu abilities = natural counterparts.Matthew Schroeder said:
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His body is not in a straight position, indicating his head is tilted, as I've indicated with countless diagrams and drawings by this point...
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Real question is what more do you actually want.Matthew Schroeder said:
The databook says it is light speed. That is all and nothing contradicts that. I guess you want the author to go all out and say "It is in fact light speed".
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Why does head tilt matter? He was looking at Naruto and the Light Fang will follow his mouth's direction. His mouth was pointed at Naruto so the beam would go to Naruto.
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Okay. SO my thoughts about the whole Haku stuff with his mirrors being lightspeed....I actually don't think its an outlier. At least for Haku anyway.
Now the conscensus here about the whole thing in general being an outlier is because KM1 Naruto was "able to tag him" and Sasuke was able to perceive Haku through 1 tomoe Sharingan. Now It is clear that both things happened, thats no question. So why isn't this an outlier? From what I believe at least, the answer's simple: Haku wasn't light speed in either moment, but lower than it drasically.
And there are multiple points to this.
1.) If you guys remembered from the fight, it was confirmed by Haku himself that the Ice Mirror Jutsu requires and uses up an incredible amount of Chakra to be used for such a long period of time. That means the user must have a large chakra resevoir to even use the jutsu, and even with that, using it for a long time can drain them. In addition to this, Sasuke himself even suspects of this being true as he saysHaku's movements are slowing down as well for his chakra closing in on its limit (hence the "getting weaker" claim and the anime secondary canon supports this as Sasuke there flat out says his movements are slowing). In other words, the more Haku uses chakra for the jutsu, and the jutsu himself, the slower he becomes for using it over an extended period.
2.) According to this page, because Sasuke was familarizing with Haku's decreasing movements of speed, and was obviously on the brink of awakening the Sharingan, Sasuke's own speed was also increasing at the same time. This also supports this claim, otherwise Haku wouldnt have been required to target Naruto first to catch Sasuke off-guard instead of just attacking directly. And by "familarizing", it's not as great as you'd think. Sasuke needed minor instances, such as Haku repeling the water from his mirrors when moving , or his fireball jutsu interfering, to barely see glimpses of Haku's speed trails. Even then, there is a difference between perceiving speed and actually being able to match it with your body. Sasuke geting embarrased by Rock Lee is a perfect example.
3.) Regarding KM1 Naruto "tagging" Haku. If i remember correctly, the mirrors are what Haku explicity uses to even move at Light Speed or anything higher than his base speed correct? Otherwise the need for the mirrors would be completely irrelevant to how fast he moves. Well, if you take a look here , and look here , Naruto when using Kurama's power only grabbed Haku because he was out in the open, outisde the mirrors. Haku right before this states he needs to "quickly get to the next mirror". When he isn't using the mirrors, Haku cannot move at the speeds he'd normally travel at when using them. So Haku, when grabbed by Naruto, was never moving at the mirror speeds, and thats especially true when Haku's movements at this point have dropped considerably compared to near the beginning of the fight. Had Naruto never summoned Kurama's power in this moment, Haku would have still won handily, even with reduced power and speed.
4.) Last point from 3 brings me to this, a small thing to note out. Anyone ever consider the possibility of Haku being beaten by them at all big PIS? This occurence is a common kind of trope in fiction. The villain stomping the good guys, the good guys awaken a new power at the last second and start turning the tables. In this case, Sasuke awakening the sharingan at the last second and Naruto awakening Kurama's power at the last second. Haku and Zabuza needed to be beaten somehow, and given this was Team 7's first actual fight/mission that was notable, it would make sense for an ass-pull like this to happen so they could stop them.
5.) About the "getting teared to shreds" part. I believe Haku not being harmed by his own speed was because of stuff thats along the lines of being intangible or phasing through objects. We clearly see here that Haku is phasing through his ice mirrors when using them . Both the manga and anime canons confirm this. As such, if one were to be phasing or be intangible, it would logically support the fact that traveling at such speeds wouldnt harm them.
To sum things up here, besides PIS:
-Haku's speed gradually goes down if he uses the Ice Mirror jutsu for too long, at best giving him Lightspeed in the form of short bursts or short timespans, when his chakra levels are either full or nearly full. As such, this should not be an outlier for him.
-Sasuke, even with Sharingan, only ever perceived Haku when using small instances as mentioned, Haku being slower in speed for above reasons, and using the Sharingan's abilities to further increase his own speed capabilities, making it possible and more easier for Sasuke to keep up with Haku. That said, because of the speed difference between Light speed and where Team 7 was already, this would still be an outlier for Sasuke in the end.
-Naruto never tagged Haku when he was in Light-speed motion via the mirrors. Not only were Haku's speed and movements gradually decreased from before, but Haku was tagged by Naruto before he could use the mirrors to continue moving at speeds higher than his base speed. That said, like Sasuke, this would still be an outlier for Naruto as well.
-Haku not being torn or harmed by his own speed is covered by him having some level of phasing or intangibility thats demonstrated when he enters his ice mirrors.
So in the end, if no one sees issues with this, and this is acceptable, I think only Haku should be allowed to have this speed. It remains an outlier for Naruto and Sasuke, but Haku keeps it only in the form of short time-spans or short bursts, using the mirrors, when not on the brink of being depleted of power.
Now the conscensus here about the whole thing in general being an outlier is because KM1 Naruto was "able to tag him" and Sasuke was able to perceive Haku through 1 tomoe Sharingan. Now It is clear that both things happened, thats no question. So why isn't this an outlier? From what I believe at least, the answer's simple: Haku wasn't light speed in either moment, but lower than it drasically.
And there are multiple points to this.
1.) If you guys remembered from the fight, it was confirmed by Haku himself that the Ice Mirror Jutsu requires and uses up an incredible amount of Chakra to be used for such a long period of time. That means the user must have a large chakra resevoir to even use the jutsu, and even with that, using it for a long time can drain them. In addition to this, Sasuke himself even suspects of this being true as he saysHaku's movements are slowing down as well for his chakra closing in on its limit (hence the "getting weaker" claim and the anime secondary canon supports this as Sasuke there flat out says his movements are slowing). In other words, the more Haku uses chakra for the jutsu, and the jutsu himself, the slower he becomes for using it over an extended period.
2.) According to this page, because Sasuke was familarizing with Haku's decreasing movements of speed, and was obviously on the brink of awakening the Sharingan, Sasuke's own speed was also increasing at the same time. This also supports this claim, otherwise Haku wouldnt have been required to target Naruto first to catch Sasuke off-guard instead of just attacking directly. And by "familarizing", it's not as great as you'd think. Sasuke needed minor instances, such as Haku repeling the water from his mirrors when moving , or his fireball jutsu interfering, to barely see glimpses of Haku's speed trails. Even then, there is a difference between perceiving speed and actually being able to match it with your body. Sasuke geting embarrased by Rock Lee is a perfect example.
3.) Regarding KM1 Naruto "tagging" Haku. If i remember correctly, the mirrors are what Haku explicity uses to even move at Light Speed or anything higher than his base speed correct? Otherwise the need for the mirrors would be completely irrelevant to how fast he moves. Well, if you take a look here , and look here , Naruto when using Kurama's power only grabbed Haku because he was out in the open, outisde the mirrors. Haku right before this states he needs to "quickly get to the next mirror". When he isn't using the mirrors, Haku cannot move at the speeds he'd normally travel at when using them. So Haku, when grabbed by Naruto, was never moving at the mirror speeds, and thats especially true when Haku's movements at this point have dropped considerably compared to near the beginning of the fight. Had Naruto never summoned Kurama's power in this moment, Haku would have still won handily, even with reduced power and speed.
4.) Last point from 3 brings me to this, a small thing to note out. Anyone ever consider the possibility of Haku being beaten by them at all big PIS? This occurence is a common kind of trope in fiction. The villain stomping the good guys, the good guys awaken a new power at the last second and start turning the tables. In this case, Sasuke awakening the sharingan at the last second and Naruto awakening Kurama's power at the last second. Haku and Zabuza needed to be beaten somehow, and given this was Team 7's first actual fight/mission that was notable, it would make sense for an ass-pull like this to happen so they could stop them.
5.) About the "getting teared to shreds" part. I believe Haku not being harmed by his own speed was because of stuff thats along the lines of being intangible or phasing through objects. We clearly see here that Haku is phasing through his ice mirrors when using them . Both the manga and anime canons confirm this. As such, if one were to be phasing or be intangible, it would logically support the fact that traveling at such speeds wouldnt harm them.
To sum things up here, besides PIS:
-Haku's speed gradually goes down if he uses the Ice Mirror jutsu for too long, at best giving him Lightspeed in the form of short bursts or short timespans, when his chakra levels are either full or nearly full. As such, this should not be an outlier for him.
-Sasuke, even with Sharingan, only ever perceived Haku when using small instances as mentioned, Haku being slower in speed for above reasons, and using the Sharingan's abilities to further increase his own speed capabilities, making it possible and more easier for Sasuke to keep up with Haku. That said, because of the speed difference between Light speed and where Team 7 was already, this would still be an outlier for Sasuke in the end.
-Naruto never tagged Haku when he was in Light-speed motion via the mirrors. Not only were Haku's speed and movements gradually decreased from before, but Haku was tagged by Naruto before he could use the mirrors to continue moving at speeds higher than his base speed. That said, like Sasuke, this would still be an outlier for Naruto as well.
-Haku not being torn or harmed by his own speed is covered by him having some level of phasing or intangibility thats demonstrated when he enters his ice mirrors.
So in the end, if no one sees issues with this, and this is acceptable, I think only Haku should be allowed to have this speed. It remains an outlier for Naruto and Sasuke, but Haku keeps it only in the form of short time-spans or short bursts, using the mirrors, when not on the brink of being depleted of power.
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Yet here u can clearly see him facing naruto with his body
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And none of those diagrams prove anything because we see him staring straight at NarutoKepekley23 said:
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Exactly like I said above people can not stand Naruto getting beyong their misconceptions of its powerlevel.Assaltwaffle said:
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Jojo has like six different FTL feats that are explictlely so.Assaltwaffle said:
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Real, objective and conclusive proof it is Lightspeed, not relying on the guidebook.Rocker1189 said:
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And at the end of the day Jojo is not Naruto, I still do not understand why it is that we need something beyond the literalt description of the abilities to prove that it is light speed. Not to mention how many times Sage chakara has been stated to be natural.Matthew Schroeder said:
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why not the databooks? they are acepted, and tehre is nothing contradicting themMatthew Schroeder said:
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I'd appreciate it if you stopped being condescending and thinking I "don't want Naruto to get an upgrade", since I got the verse to Sub-Relativistic and I had to assume a timeframe to even do that to begin with.
At this point, you want the verse back at MHS+
At this point, you want the verse back at MHS+
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Real, objective and conclusive proof it is Lightspeed, not relying on the guidebook.
Which is impossible with it only being used once and also when we have been told exactly what it is. By said guidebook. Why do you think it is called a guide book in the first place. That is like saying we need to figure out the rules of a game without using the guide book which is stupid.
Which is impossible with it only being used once and also when we have been told exactly what it is. By said guidebook. Why do you think it is called a guide book in the first place. That is like saying we need to figure out the rules of a game without using the guide book which is stupid.
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Indeed, for unlike Naruto it is FTL.Rocker1189 said:
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I never meant you at all Kep and I appreciate you are actually bringing up points.Kepekley23 said:
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Wouldn't mind that. The way it works with these people is that if you give them a hand, they'll rip out your whole arm, and whine that you didn't give both.Kepekley23 said:
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And I never said Naruto is FTL I explicitly said that LF is light speed and Naruto characters are Relavistic scaling off of Naruto dodging it.Matthew Schroeder said:
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@Matt
Fair enough, but highest FTL to Baseline MFTL is 10 times, which is still a large jump. Also what other FTL feats? You can message that to my wall though, I don't want to derail with Jojo.
Also this just looks like you don't want Naruto to get powerful. Everything naturally points to this being a light-dodge, and we are coming up with hilarious rationalizations to try and keep it from being such. Databook? Throw it out. Being called and appearing like light? Not enough. Using natural energy to produce a natural attack? Clearly means natural lightning, not natural light despite being called and appearing as light. Aiming at Naruto? His head was tilted (why that matters who knows considering all that matters is his mouth pointing at the target).
Like Occam's Razor is crying in a corner right now.
Fair enough, but highest FTL to Baseline MFTL is 10 times, which is still a large jump. Also what other FTL feats? You can message that to my wall though, I don't want to derail with Jojo.
Also this just looks like you don't want Naruto to get powerful. Everything naturally points to this being a light-dodge, and we are coming up with hilarious rationalizations to try and keep it from being such. Databook? Throw it out. Being called and appearing like light? Not enough. Using natural energy to produce a natural attack? Clearly means natural lightning, not natural light despite being called and appearing as light. Aiming at Naruto? His head was tilted (why that matters who knows considering all that matters is his mouth pointing at the target).
Like Occam's Razor is crying in a corner right now.
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Niiiiice.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Everyone needs to calm down....I knew this thread was a mistake.
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@Assault
Indeed thanks for the reply
Indeed thanks for the reply
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Also, let's remember that the only feat on Naruto that is certainly above MHS+ is Minato's Sub-Relativistic+ feat that scales to Madara.
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I would argue that light fang is better proof since its speed has been confirmed but again that is based on people believing in the databook.Kepekley23 said:
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And Kcm naruto blitzing A
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People need to cut out this condescension as well.
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And Might guy bending space with running
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Yes, it's not. Death of the Author, feats over statements.TataHakai said:
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and here are no feats that go over WoGMatthew Schroeder said:
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It should be around relativistic or something or so ive heard dont take my word for it tho
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And no feats counteract this one in fact all feats that follow afterwords pretty much help to push along that the level of Naruto had gone up massively.Matthew Schroeder said:
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