Light Speed Standard Revision

[Amexim]

Yeah, of course outliers are outliers, but the problem I also have is directly contradicting lore and the facts of the verse in favor of appeals to reality when superpowers in general manipulate substances in impossible (we think) ways.

Why go against Kuroko (made up character) when he says his real light attacks are impossible to dodge by anyone who isn't faster than the speed of light itself— outright stating that his attacks are LIGHT— with our reasoning being that he can bend the light and it explodes or hits things concussively. We're just asserting our ideas over the universe at that point— even more than we usually do.

 

[AguilaR101]

All OP has provided are very specific scenarios where we would not apply our standards, nothing compelling enough to remove them completely as the great majority of fictional works won't have anything to lampshade the unnatural behaviour of supposed light beams.

That aside just the attack originating from a light manipulator wouldn't remotely be good enough to overlook the fact light isn't behaving like it should; there would need to be explicit statements or strong evidence that suggest they're actually capable of those effects as having the ability to use an element isn't the same as having full control of it.

 

[Amexim]

The changes Kukui and I (though he made this thread, so he should get most of the credit in pushing for it) propose from my perspective are more guidelines and things to keep in mind rather than us throwing away the standards we have. When it comes to superpowers and stuff, light not acting like light all the time doesn't make it not light, especially when it's directly clarified to be light and light speed, and especially when it acts like real light at times as well. Inconsistencies with the showings shouldn't trump the solid fact of it, is my thing.

 

[TataHakai]

I get the point of non-physical interaction users, who can interact with intangible forces, being able to interact with light too.
But on the topic of bending, when light bends (as pointed out in case of refraction) its velocity changes. At that point, it isn't travelling at 2.99x10^8m/s aka "light-speed" anymore.

Also, a user who is capable of changing the direction of a light beam, is by default capable of changing its velocity. It could be more, it could be less. But again we can't directly assume it's "light-speed".

100% what i was going to say too

When you insert the notion that the direction and shape of light being manipulated by the user, you are also then open to the notion that it's velocity is dependent on how fast the user wants it to go

This is especially prominent in fictional verses, two users can have light based attacks but one of them can be far stronger and faster with faster attacks as it's all based on the users manipulation of Light rather than Lights natural speed.

For example Tien from DB can use light as an attack, Goku can react and outspeed this, Frieza can also use light as an attack, Goku and Co can't react to or outspeed it, are they both LS attacks or do they move as fast as the user wants them to move as they are the ones manipulating them? I'd go with the latter

 

[M3X_2.0]

For example Tien from DB can use light as an attack, Goku can react and outspeed this, Frieza can also use light as an attack, Goku and Co can't react to or outspeed it, are they both LS attacks or do they move as fast as the user wants them to move as they are the ones manipulating them? I'd go with the latter

One of them is outlier while the other is a good feat for the light itself (blitzing Relativistic characters). And Occam's Razor here. Why we would assume that the light is slower when this was not even stated?

 

[TataHakai]

And what happens when the same thing happens later on and later on? Dragonball isn't the only situation where this happens, it happens in every verse, and simply chalking every situation before the latest to an outlier is papering over cracks

We would assume that if Light is being manipulated by a character that they are also in control of how fast it moves, whereas if they simply use light as it naturally behaves then it's more likely that it also contains the other properties of how light Naturally behaves, ergo giving it the speed of light

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I know the examples I gave were more specific than generalized, but thats missing my overall point there.

My overall point regarding light being bended is that if there are characters who use light-based moves, and they are presented as manipulating their own attacks to the point where it will bend to travel in non-linear positions to hit opponents, why are we going to be so quick to assume its not real light? Why are we not going to consider the strong possibility that the characters are just manipulating their moves to do that so they dont have to wait for that one opportunity to attack someone in a direct straight line, which can easily be avoided? In a fight, characters are not going to just let opponents have the opportunity to attack them precisely and directly.

To me, its rather ridiculous that because characters will have the common sense and strategic thinking to carefully manipulate their attacks to make sure their attacks land, we have to accept that their moves are not real light. And that the only way to accept them as real light is for these characters to waste time and wait for a chance to fire their beams in a single straight line. Which also assumes that light manipulation doesnt exist and cannot be used to much bigger extents.

 

[Amexim]

@Aguilla

We literally had a debate about Solar Beam and Doom Desire yesterday where these exact things came up, and the standards were being used against them, despite both moves behaving as and being stated to be light. So, no, your assertion that the rules don't need to be messed with is baseless and ill informed.

A character's limitations on what they can do with their power depends on the case in question. But explain how a person with light manipulation would have an easier time making light behave in ways not standard to light if they have no skill or control over it.

What you're saying is, we have to have proof that it is actually light manipulation. Which is a given. If we lack the information to believe it is light manipulation (as in the statements are too vague or non-existent), then we apply the standards to determine if it is light or not.

There's no good to come of denying a decent light statement, or confirmed light manipulation just because it does what all superpowers do. Otherwise, fire manipulation and electricity manipulation isn't actually fire or electricity, when we all think that's absurd and that the alternative of "superpowers make substances do crazy shit" is much better.

 

[AguilaR101]

We literally had a debate about Solar Beam and Doom Desire yesterday where these exact things came up

I wonder why, could it be that the thread discussing why we should overlook the instances where they break our pre-established, rigid standards hadn't been made yet?

So, no, your assertion that the rules don't need to be messed with is baseless and ill informed.

You have a very bad tendency to misrepresent people's arguments and jump to conclusions.

Nowhere did I say that the rules "don't need to be messed with" I said that OP only presented specific scenarios where our current rules wouldn't apply, even accepting those scenarios as exceptions to the rules would already be accepting of them being modified to some extent. What I adressed specifically was the intent to remove them even though the specific set of circumstances that would justify not applying the current rules aren't present in the great majority of feats.

But explain how a person with light manipulation would have an easier time making light behave in ways not standard to light if they have no skill or control over it.

Why would I need to explain this specifically?

Elemental Manipulation is given to characters for the simple ability to shoot something resembling an element regardless of how versatile they are with it or how good they actually are at controlling it, we give light manip to characters who use flashbangs ffs.

if the series doesn't do a good enough job establishing the level of finesse a character has over an element is enough to make it behave unnaturally there is no reason to not interpret those behaviors as proof positive of their attacks not being close enough to the actual element for one to assume it has realistic properties.

What I'm saying, at least one of scenarios OP presented has loopholes to it that need to be adressed, is that clear enough?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Guys, please. I dont want this to get out of control.

Amexim, people are allowed to have different opinions before agreeing with this, so just please take that into account before addressing them. That is all.

 

[Amexim]

I mean, I wasn't trying to be hostile, I didn't intend to come off that way, it was moreso that I interpreted his disagreement to mean that we're making this argument up. Might have been my mistake or maybe he didn't clarify himself properly. Regardless, I wasn't getting hostile or anything, his argument didn't make much sense to me.

Like this;

A lack of finesse in control over a substance wouldn't imply that they are supposed to make that substance act "more like the natural thing", it's the opposite. A person who can't control lightning properly would have less ability to control and alter its traits to be something outside of how it would work naturally. Same with light manipulation. The absolute weakest light manipulators are seldom capable of anything more than a flash of light, which is actually one of the most mundane and natural ways a light superpower can be used. To argue that someone unskilled in the use of that superpower is actually going to have to work HARDER for the substance they manipulate to work as it NORMALLY does is absolutely backwards, which is why I brought up what it was.

This was me interpreting what you said as "If they suck at the power, it's not gonna look right," when it's the opposite— the point of these powers is that you make the substance look far from what it's supposed to be. You seem to be coming at this from the perspective of "higher speed or more realistic substance = better control" but that's fundamentally false.

Edit: I read what you said again to see if i'm Misinterpreting you and, I don't exactly know but it also sounds like you're saying that it's the job of the verse to establish that light can be manipulated in a way that makes it have strange qualities.

My problem is, we assume that every verse, unless stated otherwise, has this metric of skill and control— that is to say, as all across fiction things like Fire manipulation or lightning manipulation do things that are impossible in the natural world, like being condensed into weapons and cutting things as though they were the solid objects they're meant to mimic, light would be no different. We, or at least I assume that every verse has the manipulation of a certain substance be placed on a gradient that goes from "Mundane/normal" to "far different than normal".

Waterbenders have to give water the unique quality of being able to cut things when condensed into a blade, as water can't do that on its own, and very bad waterbenders can barely move it from one place to another, nevermind making it razor sharp. This isn't even an assumption, this is consistent over almost all fiction.

An American comic book water manipulator who's trash at using it has trouble moving flames in one direction or another, never mind condensing it into a sphere that explodes for some reason. Logic would stand that normally in fiction, a bad water manipulator wouldn't be able to make their water blast explode without a reason like it often does in fiction. Think about how weird it is in Pokémon that water shuriken explodes into vapor on contact instead of just... Sploosh. Things like that.

To me, it's very ass backwards to assume that someone's inability to have their superpower be mundane is a testiment of a lack of skill with it, when it's almost always the opposite. Light manipulators who can't manipulate light well would likely, no, almost certainly have less of an easy time letting their light construct disperse like real light and effectively relinquishing control and letting light behave normally (as in without them messing with it) than they would making a polearm out of photons.

 

[Amexim]

And me thinking Aguila saying that these specific scenarios are where we wouldn't apply our standards and that Kukui doesn't give an actually compelling case as to why we should mess with the standards translated to "these scenarios don't exist" was me being stupid it seems.

Edit: Like "we wouldn't apply these standards in these niche circumstances anyway" is wrong though. Because they were applied where they shouldn't have, so at best something needs to be written down so that people know not to do that. Judging by people saying that it wouldn't be considered real substance manipulation because of it— though that might be because there was no need to clarify the two, like Aguilla said.

This is a joke, but the point still stands. To me it sounds like this (and I apparently can't read, so again, take it with a grain of salt...?);

"Look at this dood! He can't even let water act NORMALLY, he's stuck making it turn into solid constructs and shit! What a trash water manipulator, being stuck with giving water unnatural traits! Real water manipulation means that the water acts exactly the same as it would if there was no water manipulation being used on it! Lameeeee"

So, sorry, aguilla? I didn't mean to come off hostile, I just disagreed with you hard

 

[Amexim]

Like, everyone considers a good or strong manipulator of a substance to be one who can alter it in a myriad of ways. I understand that the idea of a good manipulator is also one who can produce the strongest effects of their substance, but as sometimes less is more, it's also harder to turn light into a spear with your mind than it is to make a flashlight or a shimmer. This is consistent throughout all of fiction.

I think today, a character in one of my favorite verse's UQ Holder was confirmed to be made of light (as a High Light Spirit) use light as powers, and move at light speeds (confirmed by another character who uses light to attack at light speeds, so she knows what she's on about). His attacks were light polearms that stabbed into the opponent. I would definitely disagree with calling his powers and body not actually light just because he can make it tangible, explode, Bend, shape, and cut through things. Nor would I be in favor of a skeptic looking at his powers and disagreeing with them being real light because of those things, when it's easier in fiction to say that he is skilled enough to alter the light than not.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Amexim, please try and not clutter this thread with triple postings. If you could try and sum up your points more in few replies is what I mean.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Honestly, I feel that Aguila's points about this not being enough to change to change the standards when this mostly discusses exceptions to the rule. I do have some concerns about potential speed inflations if this gets accepted in various verses which may not be that accurate to the works in question.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Potential speed inflations may be one thing, but that isnt a reason to disagree with this. Each verse is treated on a case by case basis.

Plus, dont confuse my proposals with feats being outliers. Like DMUA said, the feats from a verse can stiill be outliers, my only concern is the qualification of the feats in general.

 

[Amexim]

Then a clarification on the rule's exceptions would be appreciated, as they are not being considered exceptions, and it seems that these thoughts and topics already have some contentious aspects to them.

I would argue that, if it is stated for a fact to be "real light"— none of this confusing a plasma blast for a flash of light, or calling a Ki blast a laser beam as a colloquialism, no. I mean if it's stated to be real light, work similar to light (as in has the properties we're looking for it to have, like passing through glass or reflecting off of mirrors), or is stated to be light speed as it is called light (which would just be a done deal), then it's light, and likely Relativistic to SoL. Simple. The speed "inflation" would be built in to the verse.

Phrases like "speed inflation" come from preconceived notions about how a verse is supposed to be in terms of power, and it's so close to arguments from absurdity, since it implies that the speed ratings or feats given are unbelievable, when the verse would have all the evidence to support it. If it's not an outlier, and the characters dodge these light attacks consistently (making it not an outlier), then it's not "speed inflation". It would only mean that character's dodge real light all the time.

What I do recognize though, is that we do kind of just give SoL ratings for things being confirmed light speed when they are light. So, Anguilla is right in saying that we at least do one of the things asked about here consistently. Or maybe i'm mistaken.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Speed inflations come from evaluated feats and showings potentially not matching what this revision might entail. And I don't think this is something that needs to be changed given the current standards work well enough as they are.

 

[Amexim]

"Speed inflation" actually happening would require old feats disregarded by this standard to be taken into account and THEN for them to be consistently shown enough for them not to be outliers. Which just sounds like a proper, fair, unextraordinary CRT to me.

And then to say that this doesn't need to be changed because they work just fine, even though you already think that this would change a lot of speed ratings proves my point. You sound like you're doublethinking, because obviously the standards aren't fine if this subtle clarification or at worse outright removal for certain circumstances would cause things to change so much. If they're just fine the way they are, certain disagreements would not have happened or be happening as we speak. In addition to all the misconceptions about how it's handled, and how many powers would be considered not light even though they ARE by these standards.

For me, when it comes to superpowers specifically, or things that could Manipulate light in a similar fashion, these rules shouldn't apply. Whether that results in a note on the rules, or the removal from the page is irrelevant to the fact that I want people to know the difference explicitly, as this distinction is important for everyone to know.

Like, people genuinely try to argue that light manipulation can't be real light if it bends, as seen in this thread. Which means these standards' removal or some clarification of SOME SORT is necessary.

 

[RegisNex1232]

Or it could just as well be an excuse to start rating stuff that was unaccepted previously for various reasons. There's a lot that can happen.

This isn't a subtle clarification, it's essentially making the standards so low that anyone can pass it, which leads to the above problem and more disagreements between conflicting views on feats.

For me, this revision honestly doesn't feel that important to make and consider since it just feels like pushing standards lower to accept more feats, regardless of any sense of accuracy in the evaluations of the profiles.

 

[DMUA]

Keep in mind this doesn't eliminate light based feats just being outliers.

Can we all just take a moment to keep this in mind

Because, even if this passes, inconsistent feats will still be shot down.

Then again I haven't exactly kept up with the threads and it's arguments.

 

[Amexim]

Can you go into further detail why you think this because i'm reading it and you seem to just be using loaded objections and phrases? Like, saying "Light manipulation users should be able to have precise control over their light just like every other power user and still have their substance be considered light" isn't the same as "throw away light requirements so more feats can squeeze by". Sure, from the perspective of one absolutely resistant to any kind of loosening of the standard, it sounds that way, but in order for you to get that impression, you would have to deliberately ignore the numerous clarifications to our stance we have made.

For example, I have said that it has to be considered actual light several times, implied that this only works on superpower light manipulation itself or something with equal amounts of supernatural control, doesn't negate outliers, doesn't mean we consider every vague statement of light to be light and that more information or use of the standards above needs to be considered, etc.

Basically, I'm saying that a light manipulator who's powers are stated to be real light irrefutably shouldn't suddenly have his light be considered "not light" just because he has a superpower that can mess with light in ways impossible to be so in real life. To call for the removal of these standards in that context specifically, or st the very least for a note that recognizes this misconception an attempt to inflate and wank off characters and verses and make everyone stronger because the standards are now low and it's open season is a BLATANT misrepresentation of our positions, unless I somehow didn't clarify all that I have said in this paragraph as well as I did now earlier.

Edit: DMUA has my energy rn.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Or it could just as well be an excuse to start rating stuff that was unaccepted previously for various reasons. There's a lot that can happen.
This isn't a subtle clarification, it's essentially making the standards so low that anyone can pass it, which leads to the above problem and more disagreements between conflicting views on feats.

Thats...not whats being proposed here in the slightest. And I went through this, in detail, on why it isnt.

This isnt about making "standards so low that anyone can pass it". This is about removing parts of our standards for reasons that I and several others have argued as being nonsense.

 

[Amexim]

Kukui, you said immediately in the OP that you were not trying to do that. Lol

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Kukui, you said immediately in the OP that you were not trying to do that. Lol

I know, but apparently, not everyone reads the thread in its entirety.

Anyway, this will derail so lets just drop it. Majority of everyone here knows exactly what im arguing for and what im not pushing to do.

 

[Amexim]

Agreed: Cal, YoboBlue, DMUA, Therefir, DDM, hellbeast1, M3X, TriforcePower1, the OP, me, ShrekAlmighty, Drite77

Neutral: Dragonmasterxyz

Against: AKM, Regis, Aguila(?), TataHakai

 

[ShrekAlmighty]

I agree with the OP.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I'm neutral and will wait for staff knowledgeable on this stuff to comment before I pick a side.

 

[KazuiK]

I am a little skeptical about light manipulators having light speed but the rest I agree.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Yeah, no one's saying we should treat every "Light Manipulation" feat as being light speed; the main part I agreed with is light bending doesn't debunk something being light speed. Sometimes it does, but it doesn't always disprove it being light.

 

[Amexim]

Yeah, context is key.

 

[Drite77]

I agree with the OP

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, no one's saying we should treat every "Light Manipulation" feat as being light speed; the main part I agreed with is light bending doesn't debunk something being light speed. Sometimes it does, but it doesn't always disprove it being light.

This, 100%.

I never even intended for this thought to cross someones mind here. Of course not every light manipulator in existence will become SoL or more, thats ridiculous. My point was that if a character has light-based attacks, light bending upon use shouldnt be a disqualification against them being light speed because they can be using light manipulation. Not that every light manipulator gets light speed for their attacks.

Like mentioned above, context is key.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Agreed: Cal, YoboBlue, DMUA, Therefir, DDM, hellbeast1, M3X, TriforcePower1, the OP, me, ShrekAlmighty, Drite77
Neutral: Dragonmasterxyz

Against: AKM, Regis, Aguila(?), TataHakai

I'll add this to my OP btw.

 

[AKM sama]

@AKM. Light bending doesn't change the speed unless it's in a different medium. Light is still .997 SoL in air.

It does change its velocity, so you can't say with 100% certainty that it's speed also doesn't change. Apart from the vector in its initial direction of propagation, bending it adds another vector according to the direction in which it's bending. There's literally no reason to assume a bending light beam has the same speed as a regular light beam when it's clearly not behaving like one and the components affecting its speed are being changed.

To cite an easy example, you can drive on a straight road with a constant speed, but not on a road with twists and turns.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Yeah because you actively slow down.

Bruh this was the only test I got a B on in Physics (don't judge me Physics II was hard). I know this ovo.

 

[Antvasima]

Or it could just as well be an excuse to start rating stuff that was unaccepted previously for various reasons. There's a lot that can happen.

This isn't a subtle clarification, it's essentially making the standards so low that anyone can pass it, which leads to the above problem and more disagreements between conflicting views on feats.

For me, this revision honestly doesn't feel that important to make and consider since it just feels like pushing standards lower to accept more feats, regardless of any sense of accuracy in the evaluations of the profiles.

I agree with this. I definitely don't want our standards to turn too lax, regardless how many walls of text that Amexim spams about it.

Somebody should definitely ask DontTalkDT to comment here. This could lead to a lot of threads that inflate statistics to unreasonable degrees, and does not seem like a good idea at all.

You can tell him that I sent you and would appreciate his help.

 

[Yobo_Blue]

This has nothing to do with making our standards lax though....

 

[Amexim]

Alright, I feel attacked...

Not only have I been in the same place with Kukui on outliers not being justified by this change, but I even went on to rebut the idea that "speed inflation" can happen if the speed feats aren't consistent. This is pretty ******.

 

[DMUA]

The lasers wouldn't slow down dramatically from a bend like that

Otherwise, bending lasers wouldn't be very deadly, as if you can dodge the first run, all the other times that it bends would be trivial

It would still have to be in the Rel range, closer to it's actual speed depending on how efficient the user is