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Lifting Energy to Get Attack Potency (Staff Only)

XING06

XING06

710
57
Ok so I was unaware of this, but apparently we used the potential energy of lifting feats to calculate attack potency for quite a few profiles. Unfortunately, I have to say that this shouldn't actually work or at least would be inaccurate (the tier might be the same but it would be much lower in terms of actual energy) based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack.

See, unlike a punch or a kick or any sort of attack, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement, more easily (it's a bit like how if you hold your finger back with your other hand you can build up a lot more force with a flick from close distance than if you didn't and just tried to accelerate from a standing start), Lifting/pushing mvoements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring.

If we use real world ratios, when the world's heaviest deadlift is compared to the world's most powerful punch, the deadlift has nearly 5 times more energy, and most kicks around 2.5 times more. Anyway, so yeah, thoughts?
 
I agree. I can deadlist 365 pounds. The potential energy should be in the lower end of street level. But this does not make me Street Level.

This could affect the Riordanverse quite severely if potential energy is deemed unreliable.
 
Well, lifting energy could be used by simply dropping an object on somebody or something, so it is a type of attack potency.
 
Well not really, that's more of situational thing, like using a weapon. I could roll a boulder up and off a cliff onto someone and they would be smashed flat. I would exert that as much KE to move the boulder up the hill as the PE the boulder needs to crush the other person to get it up there, but it wouldn't have damaged my opponent if I did it on them directly b/c it happens over such a long period of time (It's like a wildfire; it can release as much energy as a nuke but does nowhere near as much damage b/c it happens over a large period of time and area). You simply can't generate as much energy in a attack as a lift/push b/c you don't have enough time to utilize all your muscle fibers/units. The best athletes with the most acceleration and power are able to recruit more muscle fibers in a shorter amount of time than others, but even they can't utilize as much as they would be able to in a push/lift.

Anyway, it still is an application of energy, just not really applicable in combat. Anybody who uses it as justification would still probably be in the same tier or slightly lower (As I stated the variation should be anywhere from 3-10 times as much - the variation is based on each person's individual genetics/training - 5x more for peak deadlift compared to peak punch), but from now on we probably shouldn't use it as justification (as it's just not very reliable or exact). Thoughts?

PS How many profiles would we need to change?
 
I suppose that you might have a point.

I will move this thread to the staff forum, and then highlight it.
 
This is actually an interesting subject. I think it depends on how the lifting is done. If someone can overhead throw something, it should be counted. If they can deadlift or otherwise rigidly handle it, however, they probably shouldn't gain AP from that.
 
What if it involves holding something on your back like a squat? Percy Jackson and those who scale to him are 6-C from a lifting strength feat. This could potentially affect them.
 
VersusJunkie54 said:
What if it involves holding something on your back like a squat? Percy Jackson and those who scale to him are 6-C from a lifting strength feat. This could potentially affect them.
Click to expand...
A squat isn't going to be combat applicable. You're not going to shuffle over to someone and back-drop your squat weight onto them unless they are already incapacitated.
 
Throwing should be fine? like a shotput b/c its a faster movement? Basically, if its a slow lift then no (it's not combat applicable), if it's a fast explosive lift or push then it should be OK? Again, it all depends on how fast the movement is.
 
So which franchises would need to be adjusted accordingly?
 
Percy Jackson mostly. Attack on Titan is OK b/c they have other supporting feats. There might be others but those are the two main ones that brought the issue to my attention.
 
Percy Jackson is 6-C due to the durability required to endure holding the atmosphere above you and not getting crushed, scaled down to his surface area. You really need to look at the actual calculation before saying it's invalid.
 
Wait. The atmosphere on a human-sized surface area is just existing as a human unless I'm missing something.
 
That's just atmospheric pressure. I'm fairly certain, from reading the books a loooong time ago, that Percy physically lifted the entire mass of the Earth's atmosphere single-handedly.
 
I think that the Percy Jackson ratings should probably be fine then.
 
I was wondering this time ago, PE is the potential energy, is the energy that would have if it left in a free fall, or good, a balistic lauch at certain height; it doesn't work if the object is static.

We applied the same with escape velocity, it only works for balistic launches, not if it fly.
 
Okay. Thank you for the input.

So what specifically do we need to change?
 
Although the Percy Jackson calc IS weird, because it assumes the Riordanverse Earth is flat. Percy himself says it was just an idea the Ancient Greeks had, and not necessarily a fact.

The Riordanverse Sun is still a ball of gas in outer space that's traveling at 110,000kphh, which clashes with the Ancient Greek view of the world, so I don't know what to think about that.
 
@Kepekley23 Yup the Riordanverse is complex and confusing.

Basically, what mortals believe is true in their perspective. Different pantheons coexist, which is weird.

It was stated in the Kane Chronicles. If you believe in the Afterlife, you get it. If you are an atheist, you simply get no afterlife after dying.

tl;dr: In the Riordanverse, you believe what, what is true.
 
I know this is staff only but the real world isn't like that. You can't have Athletic durability while being able to lift buildings. You organs would be forced out of your body and your bones will snap like twigs. They are things to do with each-other.
 
Well, we already have rules that durability scales from striking strength, so scaling it from lifting strength should probably make sense as well.
 
Depends.

If you're lifting something, you're tanking some fraction of its weight, but not nearly all of it.
 
Kep, in Percy Jackson both science and mythology are equally, simultaneously true due to how the metaphysics of the verse does.
 
Lifting strength doesn't scale to durability, with rare exceptions.

The GPE you generate by lifting a heavy object would literally kill you.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
This is actually an interesting subject. I think it depends on how the lifting is done. If someone can overhead throw something, it should be counted. If they can deadlift or otherwise rigidly handle it, however, they probably shouldn't gain AP from that.
Click to expand...
Snatch, Clean & Jerk, and many Strongman events should also be counted as AP
 
Yeah Kepekley is pretty much right. When you lift something you're putting an opposing force against the object so you aren't tanking the whole weight.

If they did take the whole impact (without pushing back) they would probably be dead/smashed flat for example, Hazel was able to sink an acre-sized island (4046 m2 to maybe 296m deep) but she herself was also killed by the explosion. That's a town level explosion using pulverization. Percy barely survived the Mt. St. Helens explosion and he had heat resistance to help him (7B).

@OuterversalRaditz

Yeah those are fine I guess? They're far more explosive actions so I guess it would work.
 
I do not remember so well what our conclusions were here.
 
Basically, we're going to have to revise the Percy Jackson Universe (see Kepekley and my explantions), as lifting strength does not scale to durability well. Also, generally don't use lifting feats for AP.
 
Well, that would require a separate content revision thread for the franchise.
 
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