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Just put it in Sootopolis City ovo
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Leviathan vs Groudon
- Thread starter PaChi2
- Start date
- Status
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- 33
Wouldnt Groudon have more experience there
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Hmm. I'll wait for more imput to vote.
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He really doesnt need to though, he is fought with Kyogre who also has access to Blizzard, a pretty good analogy to Blizagga
The only thing that gives Leviathan an edge over Kyogre is the fact that he has a low degree of Time Manip
The only thing that gives Leviathan an edge over Kyogre is the fact that he has a low degree of Time Manip
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And again, if Leviathan uses Slowga, i still dont know by what percentage would his speed by disminished, Lava Plume seems like a pretty viable answer to counter Blizagga easily (Sun Boosted)
Groudon rn has more offensive options than Leviathan
Unless Slowga makes Groudon a tier or two slower than Leviathan
Groudon rn has more offensive options than Leviathan
Unless Slowga makes Groudon a tier or two slower than Leviathan
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I dont think we can compare two moves from two different universes on the basis of sharing a name, do keep in mind Leviathan is still equally matched in AP by KyogrePaChi2 said:
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I'm gonna give it to Groudon via experience, and a likely skill advantage, among tons of moves like toxic and stat debuffs/buffs. Groudon's arsenal and experience is perfect for taking on foes like this. The only thing new here is time manipulation and it sounds like it's okay. Shit. Slowing down time doesn't even mean much when Groudon can lower his and boost his speed to up to x4 regardless.
Also PaChi2. Great match, I forgot to tell ya
Also PaChi2. Great match, I forgot to tell ya
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I agree with 22Easy here, Leviathan holds the hax advantage to a certain a degree, but with so little options compared to Groudon's large array of possible counters, i might either go for inc. or groudon
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Yeah I'm gonna go with the Earth Kaiju FRA.
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I was gonna post a big thing, but to hell with it. Groudon fra.
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inb4 Ever or Reppu come and debunk everything.
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Well before that happens Groudon FRA
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What's the main reason for Groudon winning again?
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Part of me wants to make Rhinomon vs Groudon or Grimmon vs Groudon for the lolz....As well as to **** with Cal.
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Both are neck and neck in AP
Both can heal their injuries.
One guy can weaken the power of the water based attacks.
One guy can slow time and use ice skills.
Also people say experience, but iirc hasn't Leviathan lived much longer than Groudon. We are talking about a creature who has been summoned for ages. Experience is not a valid argument here.
Groudon is more versatile yes, but that doesn't mean he beats someone with less. Matter of fact, this less versatility can actually be an advantage as it makes it so Leviathan will use Slowga much quicker. Matter of fact as Cal himself has used as an argument, characters like Groudon who have no set starting move and more versatility have a disadvantage and it is possible that they won't pull of the best technique first.
Also I have never heard of someone using speed buffs to counter time slow. This isn't just speed lowering, this is literally slowing down time itself. More than enough time to use Blizzaga. I doubt Leviathan is foolish enough to not notice his water attacks being weakened, and he is bound to notice the Blizzaga being more effective. He will also realize that his Slowga is a good way to get the upper hand against Groudon.
Overall my vote goes to Leviathan for Slowga, Blizzaga and less versatility making it so that he uses his better abilities faster. Leviathan 6/10.
Both can heal their injuries.
One guy can weaken the power of the water based attacks.
One guy can slow time and use ice skills.
Also people say experience, but iirc hasn't Leviathan lived much longer than Groudon. We are talking about a creature who has been summoned for ages. Experience is not a valid argument here.
Groudon is more versatile yes, but that doesn't mean he beats someone with less. Matter of fact, this less versatility can actually be an advantage as it makes it so Leviathan will use Slowga much quicker. Matter of fact as Cal himself has used as an argument, characters like Groudon who have no set starting move and more versatility have a disadvantage and it is possible that they won't pull of the best technique first.
Also I have never heard of someone using speed buffs to counter time slow. This isn't just speed lowering, this is literally slowing down time itself. More than enough time to use Blizzaga. I doubt Leviathan is foolish enough to not notice his water attacks being weakened, and he is bound to notice the Blizzaga being more effective. He will also realize that his Slowga is a good way to get the upper hand against Groudon.
Overall my vote goes to Leviathan for Slowga, Blizzaga and less versatility making it so that he uses his better abilities faster. Leviathan 6/10.
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Why would type effectiveness not be used when it is a classified Pokemon weakness? There is no difference between Pokemon Ice and regular ic. That is simply a weakness. Something many characters have outside of Pokemon.
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Sigh... Dragon's really tryna make me work on this one ovo.
Alright...
Firstly, Blizzaga is countered by Thunder. Both are absurdly powerful moves that are "super-effective on the opponent. Difference is, because Leviathan can fly, and probably will to avoid stuff like Earthquake, Precipice Blades, and Fissure, and given that even in Final Fantasy, people are aware that flight counters earth attacks given Titan's quote, it makes him a sitting duck for Thunder. And if Leviathan causes it to rain, Thunder is going to be even more of a problem. Meanwhile, Blizzaga can be lessened by Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Lava Plume. And before you call foul, Ice is weak to Fire in both series. And Kyogre naturally learns Ice moves, so it knows to be cautious around them.
Both are equal in AP, but Groudon is the only one with means to boost itself via Bulk Up. And there's still the dice roll that is Ancient Power.
Both can heal, but Groudon is the only one who can do it effectively. Not to mention that Spring Water is probably gonna have less effect in the Drought.
When it comes to experience, well...Leviathan's age is unknown, though Leviathan is quite likely as old as Groudon. Experience comes from the fact that Groudon is bitter rivals with Kyogre, who's pretty much Leviathan without the time powers. Meanwhile. Leviathan just ranks above Titan, who's essentially Groudon.
Speaking of time powers, it's probably important to note that in FF, they're pretty much the same as Agility and Scary Face, just that they're slowed down/sped up via time, rather than statistics. Different application, same result. Groudon's innate speed advantage + Scary Face + Mud Shot + Rock Tomb lessens its usefulness.
While Leviathan can heal status ailments, there's still that moment where it's still affected. Paralysis is much more serious on the healer, given the inactivity factor (paralysis exists in FF, btw) preventing potential healing. And given that statuses can stack in FF, burns become a problem.
Alright...
Firstly, Blizzaga is countered by Thunder. Both are absurdly powerful moves that are "super-effective on the opponent. Difference is, because Leviathan can fly, and probably will to avoid stuff like Earthquake, Precipice Blades, and Fissure, and given that even in Final Fantasy, people are aware that flight counters earth attacks given Titan's quote, it makes him a sitting duck for Thunder. And if Leviathan causes it to rain, Thunder is going to be even more of a problem. Meanwhile, Blizzaga can be lessened by Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Lava Plume. And before you call foul, Ice is weak to Fire in both series. And Kyogre naturally learns Ice moves, so it knows to be cautious around them.
Both are equal in AP, but Groudon is the only one with means to boost itself via Bulk Up. And there's still the dice roll that is Ancient Power.
Both can heal, but Groudon is the only one who can do it effectively. Not to mention that Spring Water is probably gonna have less effect in the Drought.
When it comes to experience, well...Leviathan's age is unknown, though Leviathan is quite likely as old as Groudon. Experience comes from the fact that Groudon is bitter rivals with Kyogre, who's pretty much Leviathan without the time powers. Meanwhile. Leviathan just ranks above Titan, who's essentially Groudon.
Speaking of time powers, it's probably important to note that in FF, they're pretty much the same as Agility and Scary Face, just that they're slowed down/sped up via time, rather than statistics. Different application, same result. Groudon's innate speed advantage + Scary Face + Mud Shot + Rock Tomb lessens its usefulness.
While Leviathan can heal status ailments, there's still that moment where it's still affected. Paralysis is much more serious on the healer, given the inactivity factor (paralysis exists in FF, btw) preventing potential healing. And given that statuses can stack in FF, burns become a problem.
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Normal types are weak to fighting types. Why? Presumably because they don't know how to fight, so beating up on the untrained makes sense. But, like, wait, what qualifies as a fighting type move from something that isn't a Pokémon? And does it really do double damage or something, or does that mean Normal Types are all incapable of being "skilled martial artists?" How come some of them can use fighting type moves? How come some moves aren't even Fighting Type, while others are? Does a wrestling tackle count as a fighting type move or a normal type?
See what I mean? The typing thing has a whole list of confusing implications. Some of the stuff you can work with, especially if the Pokemon is literally made of something that can be damaged by the weakness-- like Regice and Fire type moves, or Golem or monsters Actually made of rocks and sand that could have their bodies severely damages by water and ice via errosion, or MAYBE Fairies that might have trashy immune systems and are like bugs with pesticides.
But things like Fighting types taking damage from Flying type moves (what counts as that? If Goku levitates an inch off the ground, is he going to do more damage to Conkeldor than with a punch if he was on the ground?) Or Bugs being resistant to fighting and weak to Rock (which is for the same reason it should be weak to anything, rocks crush bugs, fists crush bugs, and bugs only resist because it's hard to karate chop a fly).
If it was up to me, the weaknesses would be a biology by biology case by case thing, in addition to Normal Moves, Fighting Moves, and Physical Dark Type moves revolving around fighting dirty wouldn't be a thing, and be more of an ability. Put it in the profiles to be "Skilled Martial Artist" or "Good at Fighting Dirty". And the basic moves like Bite and Scratch and Pound would just be things everyone can do so long as it makes sense. That way, verses are truly Equalized in a way that makes sense.
But it's not up to me. So yeah.
See what I mean? The typing thing has a whole list of confusing implications. Some of the stuff you can work with, especially if the Pokemon is literally made of something that can be damaged by the weakness-- like Regice and Fire type moves, or Golem or monsters Actually made of rocks and sand that could have their bodies severely damages by water and ice via errosion, or MAYBE Fairies that might have trashy immune systems and are like bugs with pesticides.
But things like Fighting types taking damage from Flying type moves (what counts as that? If Goku levitates an inch off the ground, is he going to do more damage to Conkeldor than with a punch if he was on the ground?) Or Bugs being resistant to fighting and weak to Rock (which is for the same reason it should be weak to anything, rocks crush bugs, fists crush bugs, and bugs only resist because it's hard to karate chop a fly).
If it was up to me, the weaknesses would be a biology by biology case by case thing, in addition to Normal Moves, Fighting Moves, and Physical Dark Type moves revolving around fighting dirty wouldn't be a thing, and be more of an ability. Put it in the profiles to be "Skilled Martial Artist" or "Good at Fighting Dirty". And the basic moves like Bite and Scratch and Pound would just be things everyone can do so long as it makes sense. That way, verses are truly Equalized in a way that makes sense.
But it's not up to me. So yeah.
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"Firstly, Blizzaga is countered by Thunder. Both are absurdly powerful moves that are "super-effective on the opponent. Difference is, because Leviathan can fly, and probably will to avoid stuff like Earthquake, Precipice Blades, and Fissure, and given that even in Final Fantasy, people are aware that flight counters earth attacks given Titan's quote, it makes him a sitting duck for Thunder. And if Leviathan causes it to rain, Thunder is going to be even more of a problem."
Since when does Groudon get Thunder naturally? Also Groudon has to use Thunder out of all his other moves. Not to mention once again Slowga and soon Haste which are temporal powers giving Leviathan an edge.
"Meanwhile, Blizzaga can be lessened by Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Lava Plume. And before you call foul, Ice is weak to Fire in both series"
Yet Blizzaga can also put out flames as well.
"Both are equal in AP, but Groudon is the only one with means to boost itself."
Still no counter for Slowga or Haste that allow Leviathan to get multiple hits in before Groudon even gets the idea to boost his stats.
"Both can heal, but Groudon is the only one who can do it effectively. Not to mention that Spring Water is probably gonna have less effect in the Drought."
Groudon's ability is constantly healing in sand or lava right? Contrary to popular belief, Groudon is not always in Lava or sand. This means depending on the circumstances, this healing can be null and void.
"Experience comes from the fact that Groudon is bitter rivals with Kyogre, who's pretty much Leviathan without the time powers. Meanwhile. Leviathan just ranks above Titan, who's essentially Groudon."
You literally said that Leviathan is older earlier. But now it isn't. Depending on the situation you seem to change up your points. Not to mention, fighting Kyogre is nice, but over the years Leviathan objectively has fought more variety than Groudon. Especially seeing as for awhile Groudon has been asleep.
"Speaking of time powers, it's probably important to note that in FF, they're pretty much the same as Agility and Scary Face, just that they're slowed down/sped up via time, rather than statistics. Different application, same result. Groudon's innate speed advantage + Scary Face + Mud Shot lessens its usefulness."
Same effect, but the cause here makes all the difference. There is a stark difference between slowing someone down in time than slowing someone down with statistics reduction. Unless now Groudon can bypass Time Slow by speed buff now. Regardless of how it's treated in FF, Time Slow is still Time Slow. Something no one other than Dialga has in Pokemon. Unless you can show me Groudon speed boosting his way out of Time Slow. You can speed up all you want, it doesn't accelerate your time.
Since when does Groudon get Thunder naturally? Also Groudon has to use Thunder out of all his other moves. Not to mention once again Slowga and soon Haste which are temporal powers giving Leviathan an edge.
"Meanwhile, Blizzaga can be lessened by Flamethrower, Fire Blast, and Lava Plume. And before you call foul, Ice is weak to Fire in both series"
Yet Blizzaga can also put out flames as well.
"Both are equal in AP, but Groudon is the only one with means to boost itself."
Still no counter for Slowga or Haste that allow Leviathan to get multiple hits in before Groudon even gets the idea to boost his stats.
"Both can heal, but Groudon is the only one who can do it effectively. Not to mention that Spring Water is probably gonna have less effect in the Drought."
Groudon's ability is constantly healing in sand or lava right? Contrary to popular belief, Groudon is not always in Lava or sand. This means depending on the circumstances, this healing can be null and void.
"Experience comes from the fact that Groudon is bitter rivals with Kyogre, who's pretty much Leviathan without the time powers. Meanwhile. Leviathan just ranks above Titan, who's essentially Groudon."
You literally said that Leviathan is older earlier. But now it isn't. Depending on the situation you seem to change up your points. Not to mention, fighting Kyogre is nice, but over the years Leviathan objectively has fought more variety than Groudon. Especially seeing as for awhile Groudon has been asleep.
"Speaking of time powers, it's probably important to note that in FF, they're pretty much the same as Agility and Scary Face, just that they're slowed down/sped up via time, rather than statistics. Different application, same result. Groudon's innate speed advantage + Scary Face + Mud Shot lessens its usefulness."
Same effect, but the cause here makes all the difference. There is a stark difference between slowing someone down in time than slowing someone down with statistics reduction. Unless now Groudon can bypass Time Slow by speed buff now. Regardless of how it's treated in FF, Time Slow is still Time Slow. Something no one other than Dialga has in Pokemon. Unless you can show me Groudon speed boosting his way out of Time Slow. You can speed up all you want, it doesn't accelerate your time.
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@Amexim
For starters in your 1st paragraph, fighting/inner energy like life force or aura easily counts as a fighting type move like Focus Blast or Aura Sphere? Why? Because of stuff in Pokemon like Aura and Infinity Energy. Fighting type moves aren't as hard to classify as you think it is.
Also, as far as DB characters go, I'm pretty sure you can classify them as fighting-flying with just a different arsenal of moves. But that's beside the point as IIRC, we don't apply types to anything outside pokemon, nothing basic anyway, to avoid confusions like this. We for the most part only apply types defensive wise to Pokemon, not offensive wise. As in, Bulbasaur doesn't one shot Aquaman for him being a "water type*, but can resist his water-attributed moves for being a grass-type (and this is completely hypothetical).
Anyway im with Cal. In addition, why are we assuming Leviathans ice moves would work any better than his main water moves, which Groudon has a field day in resisting? Theres absolutely 0 reason why anything ice based like Blizzga can do more than anything else when ice is just water frozen and Groudons taking much care of that. And as for experience, its not really just a matter of time fighting but the quality of who said person is fighting. Both may be living around the same timespan, but that hardly makes any difference when one spends that time fighting someone who has considerable advantages over them and the other does not. Groudon has spent millions of years fighting and matching his polar opposite Kyogre, whos powers can completely topple his own yet dont. It isnt as if Groudon was facing another run of the mill ground type but rather, against an opponent whos next to an impossible match to beat. In other words, both may have the same timespan of living, but Groudon has battled in more difficult-quality conditions and stakes and dealt with them.
For starters in your 1st paragraph, fighting/inner energy like life force or aura easily counts as a fighting type move like Focus Blast or Aura Sphere? Why? Because of stuff in Pokemon like Aura and Infinity Energy. Fighting type moves aren't as hard to classify as you think it is.
Also, as far as DB characters go, I'm pretty sure you can classify them as fighting-flying with just a different arsenal of moves. But that's beside the point as IIRC, we don't apply types to anything outside pokemon, nothing basic anyway, to avoid confusions like this. We for the most part only apply types defensive wise to Pokemon, not offensive wise. As in, Bulbasaur doesn't one shot Aquaman for him being a "water type*, but can resist his water-attributed moves for being a grass-type (and this is completely hypothetical).
Anyway im with Cal. In addition, why are we assuming Leviathans ice moves would work any better than his main water moves, which Groudon has a field day in resisting? Theres absolutely 0 reason why anything ice based like Blizzga can do more than anything else when ice is just water frozen and Groudons taking much care of that. And as for experience, its not really just a matter of time fighting but the quality of who said person is fighting. Both may be living around the same timespan, but that hardly makes any difference when one spends that time fighting someone who has considerable advantages over them and the other does not. Groudon has spent millions of years fighting and matching his polar opposite Kyogre, whos powers can completely topple his own yet dont. It isnt as if Groudon was facing another run of the mill ground type but rather, against an opponent whos next to an impossible match to beat. In other words, both may have the same timespan of living, but Groudon has battled in more difficult-quality conditions and stakes and dealt with them.
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Also, things like Mean Look and Scary Face...
Like, what does Mean Look actually do in a VsB context. In game it makes me unable to flee, but why tho? Am I mad at the mean look? Or is it Conceptual Hax that makes it impossible to run away? Mind Manipulation?
Scary Face makes me Slower...? How...? Maybe paralyzing me with fear-- wait, no, that's what Glare does! Growl lowers my attack-- that kinda makes sense, since I'm scared?
Moves like Agility make sense, along with Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Rock Tomb (done by surrounding you with rocks to stop you from escaping, but that's not really statistics Manip-- otherwise Gotenks as a new hax) Flame Charge, Overheat, all those make sense to a degree.
But I don't run this.
Like, what does Mean Look actually do in a VsB context. In game it makes me unable to flee, but why tho? Am I mad at the mean look? Or is it Conceptual Hax that makes it impossible to run away? Mind Manipulation?
Scary Face makes me Slower...? How...? Maybe paralyzing me with fear-- wait, no, that's what Glare does! Growl lowers my attack-- that kinda makes sense, since I'm scared?
Moves like Agility make sense, along with Calm Mind, Cosmic Power, Rock Tomb (done by surrounding you with rocks to stop you from escaping, but that's not really statistics Manip-- otherwise Gotenks as a new hax) Flame Charge, Overheat, all those make sense to a degree.
But I don't run this.
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- Thread starter
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"In addition, why are we assuming Leviathans ice moves would work any better than his main water moves, which Groudon has a field day in resisting? Theres absolutely 0 reason why anything ice based like Blizzga can do more than anything else when ice is just water frozen and Groudons taking much care of that."
Umm because in Pokemon, Ice type moves are not weakened by things like Drought or Sunny Day. Unless you show me evidence of it doing so this point is invalid. Not to mention, Magic Ice.
" And as for experience, its not really just a matter of time fighting but the quality of who said person is fighting. Both may be living around the same timespan, but that hardly makes any difference when one spends that time fighting someone who has considerable advantages over them and the other does not."
Okay and? One can fight the same opponent all they want, it's still the same opponent. Not to mention, you haven't considered the countless years of sleeping as well. Also one can only fight the same water whale so many times. So yeah he's experienced in fighting water whales (I could use a Kyogre right now, it's hot as **** where I'm at. Drizzle would be nice). The fact is it is wrong to assume that Kyogre has just so much more experience than Leviathan when we don't know everything that goes on during their years. Not to mention all the times Leviathan has been summoned.
Alos Leviathan's new abilities = RIP Groudon. Leviathan just pulled a Digimon.
Umm because in Pokemon, Ice type moves are not weakened by things like Drought or Sunny Day. Unless you show me evidence of it doing so this point is invalid. Not to mention, Magic Ice.
" And as for experience, its not really just a matter of time fighting but the quality of who said person is fighting. Both may be living around the same timespan, but that hardly makes any difference when one spends that time fighting someone who has considerable advantages over them and the other does not."
Okay and? One can fight the same opponent all they want, it's still the same opponent. Not to mention, you haven't considered the countless years of sleeping as well. Also one can only fight the same water whale so many times. So yeah he's experienced in fighting water whales (I could use a Kyogre right now, it's hot as **** where I'm at. Drizzle would be nice). The fact is it is wrong to assume that Kyogre has just so much more experience than Leviathan when we don't know everything that goes on during their years. Not to mention all the times Leviathan has been summoned.
Alos Leviathan's new abilities = RIP Groudon. Leviathan just pulled a Digimon.
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>Death Manipulation
Groudon is...dead
Groudon is...dead
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@Kukui
Hyper Beam tho. And what about if you don't have arms or legs, but you can headbutt things. Is that not a fighting type move or is it normal, like in the games. And my problem is the defensive application-- with Bulbasaur it kinda makes sense, but I don't really think Naruto should have the advantage over a Buneary or something just because he can throw a kick... Over a tackle or a bite-- does it do more damage in those cases, or do we ignore it?
I also really don't think Rock Tomb would nullify Leviathan's movement options, being a snek and all, unless it gets crushed by a rock (but that's obvious). Mud Shot...? Isn't that just dirty water-- on a giant water snek? If it had limbs or some clothes to make the mud catch on and weigh him down, I would get that, but it's just mud for him. I don't think the ways Groudon can apply the "debuffs" actually work.
Hyper Beam tho. And what about if you don't have arms or legs, but you can headbutt things. Is that not a fighting type move or is it normal, like in the games. And my problem is the defensive application-- with Bulbasaur it kinda makes sense, but I don't really think Naruto should have the advantage over a Buneary or something just because he can throw a kick... Over a tackle or a bite-- does it do more damage in those cases, or do we ignore it?
I also really don't think Rock Tomb would nullify Leviathan's movement options, being a snek and all, unless it gets crushed by a rock (but that's obvious). Mud Shot...? Isn't that just dirty water-- on a giant water snek? If it had limbs or some clothes to make the mud catch on and weigh him down, I would get that, but it's just mud for him. I don't think the ways Groudon can apply the "debuffs" actually work.
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If Death manipulation gets added I might switch my vote to Leviathan
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When Final Fantasy pulls a Digimon. Pokemon can't catch a break.
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